How Bow Brown Cow

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:54 am

Well it would seem Obama has the bow and scrape routine down to a science:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washing ... japan.html

Perhaps Obama's backbone is a little weak? He can't make decisions and now it becomes apparent he can't stand up to anyone with royalty in their title.
Oh wait! snaps fingers. Perhaps all that is needed to give Obama some spine is to give him the title of King of the United State and thus he would be the equal of the other royals and not have the urge to bend over in their presence.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:04 am

I thought protocol was you don't bow lower than your equal or lesser?

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:06 am

Will Robinson wrote:I thought protocol was you don't bow lower than your equal or lesser?

There you go!!

SilverFJ · Post by **SilverFJ** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:18 pm

There's a rational explaination for everything!

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:05 pm

Damn. That ain't gonna buff out.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:37 am

what the hell guys?

don't you know that you're supposed to bow to a chinese man? it's how they show respect to one another.

and yes mao is bowing. it's a very small bow but it's a bow.

and yeah will's right about how far you're supposed to bow.

read a book or something, guys.

Insurrectionist · Post by **Insurrectionist** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:21 am

Sorry that's a Japanese man. Yes you are to bow in greeting. If you take you eyes off the eyes of the person you are greeting you are being submissive.

wiki wrote:Basic bows originate at the waist and are performed with the back straight and the hands at the sides (for men) or clasped in front (for women), and with the eyes down. Generally, the longer and deeper the bow, the stronger the emotion or the greater the difference in social standing.

So Obama might have had a very strong emotional feeling about America being inferior to his great country.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:45 am

Ferno wrote:what the hell guys?

don't you know that you're supposed to bow to a chinese man? it's how they show respect to one another.

and yes mao is bowing. it's a very small bow but it's a bow.

and yeah will's right about how far you're supposed to bow.

read a book or something, guys.

I'm trying to determine if this was said tongue-in-cheek. For laughs, I'll assume you were being serious here.

Obama's Bow to the Japanese Emperor

"The bow as he performed did not just display weakness in Red State terms, but evoked weakness in Japanese terms....The last thing the Japanese want or need is a weak looking American president and, again, in all ways, he unintentionally played that part.

From 1994, the NYT on Clinton's "not a bow-bow".

When other world leaders meet with the Emperor of Japan.

Obama's botched bow

I don't see how you spin this as being a "small bow"; brief maybe, but not small.

Pandora · Post by **Pandora** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:29 am

Not sue why this *has* to mean weakness, if I understand Insurrectionist's quote correctly,

Insurrectionist wrote:Generally, the longer and deeper the bow, the stronger the emotion or the greater the difference in social standing.

quote]
than it could also just express a strong emotion rather than inferiority. Would like to hear what a Japanese reading of it.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:06 am

The proper way to bow between people of equal standing should barely be more than tipping your head forward slightly, practically a nod. Either the Whitehouse staff must be pretty incompetent to not properly brief the president on stuff like this or Obama himself didn't pay attention. Either way it is an embarrassment that should have been easily avoided.

flip · Post by **flip** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:18 am

This is what the 3rd 4th time he's offered his neck to another head of state? This ★■◆● is becoming embarrassing.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:21 am

So Obama's attempt at gaining a new respect for America is to be subservient?

Pandora · Post by **Pandora** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:30 am

Krom wrote:The proper way to bow between people of equal standing should barely be more than tipping your head forward slightly, practically a nod. Either the Whitehouse staff must be pretty incompetent to not properly brief the president on stuff like this or Obama himself didn't pay attention. Either way it is an embarrassment that should have been easily avoided.

interesting, so the rules of ettiquette do not change when visiting somebodies home (in this case the royal palace)?

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:48 am

No, social standing doesn't particularly change when visiting someones house as far as I know, and even if they do it wouldn't apply to national leaders who would usually be required to maintain a certain dignity everywhere. It isn't the end of the world, but the Japanese have likely already turned it into a big joke at our expense.

SilverFJ · Post by **SilverFJ** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:29 pm

Muslims can't show a picture of Mohammad, I sure as hell can.

If the Jappanese want to bow to me, I'd shake his hand. Obama didn't have to bow, he's not Jappanese.

Whitewater · Post by **Whitewater** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:50 pm

SilverFJ wrote:Muslims can't show a picture of Mohammad, I sure as hell can.

If the Jappanese want to bow to me, I'd shake his hand. Obama didn't have to bow, he's not Jappanese.

Yes, let's get our pride in the way of bowing and then create a big situation where Japan is mad at America for disrespecting them. Him bowing is not a big deal; him bowing like some uneducated schmuck, on the other hand, is a bit embarrassing. Not all that big a deal though.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:04 pm

Whitewater wrote:
SilverFJ wrote:Muslims can't show a picture of Mohammad, I sure as hell can.

If the Jappanese want to bow to me, I'd shake his hand. Obama didn't have to bow, he's not Jappanese.
Yes, let's get our pride in the way of bowing and then create a big situation where Japan is mad at America for disrespecting them. Him bowing is not a big deal; him bowing like some uneducated schmuck, on the other hand, is a bit embarrassing. Not all that big a deal though.

Heads of state do not bow, it is not prpoer protocol or proper etiqute <SP?>

flip · Post by **flip** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:12 pm

Yes, let's get our pride in the way of bowing and then create a big situation where Japan is mad at America for disrespecting them. Him bowing is not a big deal; him bowing like some uneducated schmuck, on the other hand, is a bit embarrassing. Not all that big a deal though.

Spoken like a true slave. There are some of us who would die before they bowed to another man, sure wish the president was one of them. The reason everyone's making a big deal about it is because it doesn't normally happen. Would you expect the CEO of Burger King to bow to the CEO of McDonalds or vice versa? No this is big business and anyone who knows anything about business knows that a level playing field is hard enough as it is without bending over and kissing ass at the same time

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:33 pm

flip wrote:There are some of us who would die before they bowed to another man

There are those who would die before shaking hands with a "Jap". "What you would die before" is not synonymous with "what a reasonable person shouldn't do".

If you're the President of the United States, I expect you to show an appropriate level of respect to foreign leaders. Pissing them off because you "refuse to bow" (or otherwise refuse a traditional greeting) is stupid. Bowing so far that you make a fool out of yourself is stupid too. Protocol is to bow slightly as a sign of respect (much like a handshake for us), even for a head-of-state, and Obama screwed it up.

Whitewater · Post by **Whitewater** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:36 pm

flip wrote:
Yes, let's get our pride in the way of bowing and then create a big situation where Japan is mad at America for disrespecting them. Him bowing is not a big deal; him bowing like some uneducated schmuck, on the other hand, is a bit embarrassing. Not all that big a deal though.
Spoken like a true slave. There are some of us who would die before they bowed to another man, sure wish the president was one of them. The reason everyone's making a big deal about it is because it doesn't normally happen. Would you expect the CEO of Burger King to bow to the CEO of McDonalds or vice versa? No this is big business and anyone who knows anything about business knows that a level playing field is hard enough as it is without bending over and kissing ass at the same time

You're completely misinterpreting why people bow to one another. It has nothing to do with servitude and everything to do with mutual respect. Bowing in Japan is not like a knight bowing to his king. Other than being extremely poorly informed about how to bow, Obama didn't do anything wrong. In fact, I'm in favor of a friendly greeting such as that. That type of greeting shows that he has good intentions.

flip · Post by **flip** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:43 pm

Nothing wrong with a mutual bow to show equal respect for each other. It is the Japanese custom to bow as a greeting, not an American custom. So going over there and offering some benevolence by bowing I have no problem with. What Obama did was not bow. He totally looked at the ground, offering no regard for his own life giving total trust into that mans hands. THAT is how the Japanese will see it, it is their custom after all. Not a bow in my eyes but a total show of submission and weakness standing before another man that should be considered and viewed as his equal. What in the hell is this guy trying to do to us, build the whole world up while shaming us at home. I'm disgusted at this point.

Whitewater · Post by **Whitewater** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:50 pm

flip wrote:Nothing wrong with a mutual bow to show equal respect for each other. It is the Japanese custom to bow as a greeting, not an American custom. So going over there and offering some benevolence by bowing I have no problem with. What Obama did was not bow. He totally looked at the ground, offering no regard for his own life giving total trust into that mans hands. THAT is how the Japanese will see it, it is their custom after all. Not a bow in my eyes but a total show of submission and weakness standing before another man that should be considered and viewed as his equal. What in the hell is this guy trying to do to us, build the whole world up while shaming us at home. I'm disgusted at this point.

I agree that he totally botched proper procedure, but I don't think he was intentionally being submissive. More than likely, he was just poorly informed. I'm more embarrassed than angry. For a man of his resources and education there really is no excuse to not understand greeting protocol.

flip · Post by **flip** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:55 pm

Well that's even worse. Shows he's inept and unknowledgeable about common stuff that even I'm aware of.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:36 pm

Whitewater wrote:...That type of greeting shows that he has good intentions.

I don't think the Japanese are that stupid, they surely are aware of his resume. My guess is they see his drama as disingenuous bordering either on condescension or outright dishonesty.

Pandora · Post by **Pandora** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:39 pm

that's exactly why I would like to see how this bow was received by the Japanese media. Would you all think differently about the bow if it was reported as a very polite and positive signal?

flip · Post by **flip** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:49 pm

Have you ever watched an episode of \"I Survived a Japanese game show?\" Seems a favorite past time of the Japanese media is to portray Americans as buffoons. I think the general rule is to always think of ones self as more superior to another

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:06 pm

Pandora wrote:that's exactly why I would like to see how this bow was received by the Japanese media. Would you all think differently about the bow if it was reported as a very polite and positive signal?

Hmm. I don't see much. There's this, but it's blog headlines, not major media.

While the Japanese media has largely avoided commenting on the incident, numerous comments have been made on Japanese blogs and open forums.

Ok, IF it is correct that the Japanese media has avoided commenting on Obama's bow, why is that? (Could be a completely innocuous reason; I just don't know.)

If Obama's bow was a gaffe, I'd expect the major Japanese media to avoid commenting on it, out of courtesy. I'm not overly surprised that anyone could pull some flowery headlines out of Japan's blogoshere; many Japanese have been in thrall of Obama, especially since his election. Same in China, see my Yin/Yang thread.

Isn't there a protocol authority who could give a candid assessment?

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:38 am

dissent wrote: I'm trying to determine if this was said tongue-in-cheek. For laughs, I'll assume you were being serious here.

I was being quite serious.

It's a sign of respect to anyone Japanese and no amount of links, blogs, or opinions disguised as news stories will change that simple fact.

Obama's the only one that's followed proper cultural procedure. You really should speak a japanese person about this. your stupidity is giving me a headache.

I don't see how you spin this as being a "small bow"; brief maybe, but not small.

and big fail on reading comprehension. I was talking about mao making a small bow, not Obama.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:31 am

did nixon bow?

Pandora · Post by **Pandora** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:07 am

I agree, dissent. Found the same site you found but wasn't very convinced by the selective reporting from a few blogs.

From what I can gather, there are two sides for it. On the one side, appreciation for Obama's trying to follow etiquette and being very respectful to one of Japan's cultural icons. On the other side, possibly, some fun about him getting it wrong and not doing it properly.

And yes, Nixod *did* bow (but he got the form right).

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:29 am

Pandora wrote:I agree, dissent. Found the same site you found but wasn't very convinced by the selective reporting from a few blogs.

From what I can gather, there are two sides for it. On the one side, appreciation for Obama's trying to follow etiquette and being very respectful to one of Japan's cultural icons. On the other side, possibly, some fun about him getting it wrong and not doing it properly.

And yes, Nixon *did* bow (but he got the form right).

Yes, Nixon did. And I agree, the form looks right, from what I've read - very modest bow from the waist, hands on his sides. Is Hirohito also giving a slight bow of respect in this photo? Hard to tell; he's quite old.

Ferno, it's been the depth of the bow, and mixing it with a handshake that has fueled the nature of this "controversy" (and the fact that it is recently after the bow to Saudi king Abdullah). Compare the Nixon photo. Obama bows deeply, albeit briefly, and looks at the floor as he shaking hands. If you've got a Japanese source that comments on this form, then post it.

Oh, and big reading AND geographical comprehension fail on the repeated "mao" reference (which was corrected for you repeatedly in earlier posts). Mao was a Chinese leader (who died in 1976). Obama was meeting with Japan's emperor, Akihito.

Take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.

Pandora · Post by **Pandora** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:03 am

found this: http://www.mysinchew.com/node/31614
apparently the reception in Japan was quite positve.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:37 am

Pandora wrote:...Would you all think differently about the bow if it was reported as a very polite and positive signal?

How the generally polite and reserved Japanese people publicly speak about it isn't necessarily the same as the way they will think of it, especially the Japanese political leaders who will find themselves making decisions based on their trust in him.
Obama appeared to be putting on a show, if what is offered as a spontaneous gesture of respect looks staged and over sold then the sincerity of the gesture comes into question.

Pandora · Post by **Pandora** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:01 am

Will Robinson wrote:How the generally polite and reserved Japanese people publicly speak about it isn't necessarily the same as the way they will think of it, especially the Japanese political leaders who will find themselves making decisions based on their trust in him.

I agree, of course.

Obama appeared to be putting on a show, if what is offered as a spontaneous gesture of respect looks staged and over sold then the sincerity of the gesture comes into question.

that is one interpretation. They might also simply think that he tried to follow the customs, but got it wrong. I think the real problem is that his gesture is so open to interpretation in the first place, and that so far there is no convincing data on how it was really received.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:16 am

Pandora, Americans don't really care how the Japanese received it. Obama has to be concerned how his voters perceive it. Last I checked, Japan surrendered to us and as such the emperor should be the one taking the deep bow to the leader of the country who defeated them. Because Obama wants to portray America as weak does he get on bended knee in front of a defeated enemy.

Pandora · Post by **Pandora** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:37 am

Not true, Woody. One way how people try to affect voters impression of Obama is by saying that he gave the Japanese an impression of America as weak. But for that you have to justify first that this is really how the Japanese took it. If they took it very positively then the whole argument is defeated.

And I find the notion that even now, after 50 years and Hiroshima, the USA still has to play the victor quite ridicoulous --- Isn't it time to move on? Playing the victor might endear the president to some of the people back home, but I don't think it is the best tactic for negotiations abroad.

[edited for clarity]

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:39 am

Nixon bowed to Hirohito and Eisenhower bowed to Charles DeGaul, THE FRENCH leader no less! However, Obama's form does appear to be incorrect as he is bowing looking downward with his head a little too low, violating custom, so he should have learned the proper protocol. That's not showing subservience but just plain lack of preparation or understanding of cultural norms. Subservience, NOT! It's yet another right wingnut BS Obama slam again!

Ah, but the wingnuts seem to have forgotten their leaders little falls from official decorum or social appearance and grace. At least he didn't throw up into the Japanese Prime minister's lap like Bush Senior did!

BAD SUSHI

Or walk with holding hands and kissing CROWN PRINCE ABDULLAH like Little Bushie did! Yeah! kiss my royal oil soaked A$$ you oil hungry American slave infidels!

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:30 pm

tunnelcat wrote:like Little Bushie did!

Your infatuation with our Former President is TRULY amazing. I'm beginning to wonder if there isnt really some kind of Stockholm syndrom where you have secretly come to love your former President

SilverFJ · Post by **SilverFJ** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:50 pm

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:10 pm

Somehow I see nothing funny about stomach flu or food poisoning TC. Nor do I find Obama's bending over funny even tho he is a joke.

How Bow Brown Cow

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