Corporate Christian Crusade

[Tunnelcat]

Well, we now have proof of a corporate-backed Christian Holy Crusade against Muslims. Just the kind of propaganda the Islamic crazies need for a Muslim recruiting tool to build their ranks and justify their terror war against us. I'm sorry people, this is just plain SICK in my mind and a big danger to all our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq trying to get some semblance of peace in those countries. It's a Holy War for profit now!

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-milita ... id=9575794

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/secret-bi ... id=9602030

[Will Robinson]

Are you really that reactionary? Really that easily led by the nose?

First of all lets look at the headline: \"Secret bible codes\"!?! Hey all you Christians did you know you were giving away the 'secret jesus code' every time you referenced book and verse numbers?

OK, now lets see...oh yea...your words: \"Holy War for Profit\".
News flash, every arms manufacturer as well as every boot manufacturer and every flashlight manufacturer etc.etc.etc. is selling their product for a profit. Are they guilty of going to war for profit?

OK, now, your words again: \"this is just plain SICK in my mind and a big danger to all our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq trying to get some semblance of peace in those countries.\"
Well isn't that nice and convenient! When it was Bush in the oval office it was a war for oil and his fathers legacy! Now with your boy in charge it's a war to establish peace.

How about we remove the junior high drama you are working into it and look at what we really know:

A manufacturer has a history of putting book and verse references on their product. Kind of like the weird numbers on Rolling Rock beer except I don't remember what they mean.
It has no function related to their product and they never told anyone about it, it was an inside trademark so to speak, done simply to please the man who owned the company...maybe it was his way of spreading the gospel however the effort was such an obscure reference it went unnoticed probably for decades.
Now, clearly, until someone pointed out what the markings were referring to the war effort wasn't a crusade.
If the soldiers look at the ads in the magazines they read while they are there are they suddenly fighting for Disneyland, Chevrolet and Coca-Cola?

Stop being such a tool for the leftwing weenie brigade...suck it up and stop providing the enemy with hope that all Americans could be persuaded to adopt your imbecilic point of view!

Is it something the fundamentalist Islamo-fascists will focus on? Sure. Do you want to synch your understanding of the event with their point of view?
I understand why they would do it...they are whacko's trying to recruit zealots to blow themselves up in the name of their imaginary leader. What will your excuse be for joining this jihad?

[CUDA]

Over reaction doesnt even begin to describe your response to that article

[Tunnelcat]

You see absolutely nothing wrong with a military defense contractor, spending U.S. public tax dollars to make these weapons parts, inscribing Christian Bible verse numbers these parts that our troops are using to kill Muslims? Are you out of your bloody mind Will? I sure as hell see a problem with it!

[Ferno]

When it was Bush in the oval office it was a war for oil and his fathers legacy!

Operation Iraqi Freedom (aka operation iraqi liberation)

they are whacko's trying to recruit zealots to blow themselves up in the name of their imaginary leader. What will your excuse be for joining this jihad?

how is that different than your whackos trying to recruit religious zealots to kill others in the name of their imaginary leader?

[Duper]

TC, you really need to look who's screaming \"Jihad\" the loudest.

[Will Robinson]

When it was Bush in the oval office it was a war for oil and his fathers legacy!

Operation Iraqi Freedom (aka operation iraqi liberation)

I don't understand what you are implying here...are you suggesting the liberals didn't refer to it as I described it?!?...a war for oil etc.?

they are whacko's trying to recruit zealots to blow themselves up in the name of their imaginary leader. What will your excuse be for joining this jihad?

how is that different than your whackos trying to recruit religious zealots to kill others in the name of their imaginary leader?

Who are my whacko's?

[Will Robinson]

You see absolutely nothing wrong with a military defense contractor, spending U.S. public tax dollars to make these weapons parts, inscribing Christian Bible verse numbers these parts that our troops are using to kill Muslims? Are you out of your bloody mind Will? I sure as hell see a problem with it!

I see how Islamofascists will use it to butress their 'crusade' argument. I don't see why you want to support that twisted propaganda effort simply to get your cheap shot in at Christianity.

The markings are on a product the army buys, they can choose to demand the markings be removed or find a new supplier. The contractor doesn't spend our tax dollars the army does.
You don't need to, or at least in my view, shouldn't need to, buy into the crusade argument since it is not supported by the facts. If it is supported why haven't you accused Obama of continuing a crusade? No, you don't want that you just want an outlet for your rage against the christian/conservative component so you selectively prop up your strawmen as you see fit and go off all self righteously. You belong in the DNC authoring press releases for your team.

[flip]

Isn't it also a tradition for servicemen and women to inscribe things on the weapons they deploy? I also doubt there are too many atheists on the battlefield.

[Duper]

You see absolutely nothing wrong with a military defense contractor, spending U.S. public tax dollars to make these weapons parts, inscribing Christian Bible verse numbers these parts that our troops are using to kill Muslims? Are you out of your bloody mind Will? I sure as hell see a problem with it!

wow.. what scares me is that you have absolutely no idea what you just said and/or implied.

You need to read some history. Read Washington's journal some time. He actually lead his men in Christian prayer while he was a general on the battlefield.

[Ferno]

I don't understand what you are implying here...

uh huh, sure you don't.

Who are my whacko's?

okay now you're just being dishonest.


I just love how you guys keep pointing the finger at someone else while doing your level best to pretend your group doesn't have the same things.

[Bet51987]

.

[Duper]

You want to know the crux of Christianity and why we're \"on a Crusade\"?

Watch this vid on Youtube. (lyrics in the info slot)

I assure you there is nothing nefarious or pernicious with those are that are in Christ.

But quite often this the reality. (another video) This is a song done by Monk & Neagle.

[Kilarin]

The contractor doesn't spend our tax dollars the army does.

Absolutely. No valid gripe with the contractor, they can make whatever they want.

BUT, perfectly valid grip with the military if they keep buying them.

Isn't it also a tradition for servicemen and women to inscribe things on the weapons they deploy?

Yep, but that is a different issue. It might also be a problem in this case, but a different problem.

I also doubt there are too many atheists on the battlefield.

But the ones who are there are American Soldiers risking their lives to protect mine. They deserve just as much respect as any other soldier putting their life on the line. As do the Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Wiccan, Muslim, and any other group serving in our military. It does not matter if they belong to a minority religion, they are soldiers. Treat them right.

Simple golden rule here. If the military was buying parts that came pre-engraved with Aleister Crowley quotes, Christian soldiers would complain. And rightly so. I'm certain American Soldiers who are not Christians might feel the same about having Bible texts engraved on their sights.

This IS America, and for now, we still have religious freedom and not just tolerate, but celebrate the freedom of the mind. These soldiers are taking (and giving!) bullets for us, they ALL deserve our respect and some decent treatment.

And for the other side of the battle, its just plain foolish to have parts officially inscribed with Bible texts when you are trying to convince the local population that this is not a religious war.

Now, all of that said, people are reacting like this was something the U.S. Military did on purpose. I highly doubt it, they aren't that organized. The folks who knew and noticed didn't mention it, and the people who make the purchasing decisions didn't know and didn't bother to check. Really, would YOU think to ask a contractor if they inscribed Bible texts onto their equipment? I know it never would have occurred to me.

edit: Nice songs Duper!

[Will Robinson]

I don't understand what you are implying here...

uh huh, sure you don't.

Really, I don't unless my guess was correct that you meant to imply the left didn't accuse Bush of having ulterior motives for the war regarding oil and/or his fathers legacy. In which case you are wrong because until Obama started running the show we had body counts on TV and every stupid conspiracy theory in the world trying to show how Bush and his whole family tree are neck deep in a war for oil. Obama is elected and POOF! the idiot noise goes silent.

Who are my whacko's?

okay now you're just being dishonest.
I just love how you guys keep pointing the finger at someone else while doing your level best to pretend your group doesn't have the same things.

Again I don't know what you meant but I'll try another guess. You assume I'm a faithful Christian who is sees all Muslims as radical and all Christians as benevolent. Probably thinking of christian terrorists who bomb abortion clinics as my whacko's and you want to equate the two religions...am I correct?
Well, you are wrong.
First,
I pray to a god I'm pretty sure is no less imaginary than Ossama's murderous buttlicking Allah. I do it for two reasons, one to call him out if he's there to show me he's real without the filter of some mortal self appointed interpreter. so far he's a no show....
And I tell him something like: " well, if you are there thanks for my kids and the chance to be here for them even though I'm pretty sure I'm talking to my wishful imagination". It's a calming meditative thing, maybe a subconscious cry for divine help, a cover my ass kind of thing that is probably more likely to piss him off than win his favor if we are in fact created in his image...I know how I'd recieve such a 'prayer'...
So on that count the abortion bombing whacko's are certainly not mine because I'm not a welcome member of the club.

Second, you are wrong using this context to equate the two religions because no one in the U.S. Army is waging gods war in fact they have gone so far overboard to avoid sending that message they let some wacko islamo-nutbag shoot up Ft. Hood because they didn't want to offend his little muslim feelings! that is not the methodology of a military on a Crusade!
The Islamic world can not show anything close to that kind of restraint and respect for Christianity! Hell, everytime one of those little morons blows himself up in a crowd he's yelling 'allah this one's for you!'

The Christians are sneaking into Iraq to hand out bibles, food and medicine. The Muslims are sneaking into Iraq to cut off westerners heads and plant bombs!

[Tunnelcat]

You want to know the crux of Christianity and why we're "on a Crusade"?

Watch this vid on Youtube. (lyrics in the info slot)

I assure you there is nothing nefarious or pernicious with those are that are in Christ.

But quite often this the reality. (another video) This is a song done by Monk & Neagle.

Duper, those 2 videos show us what Jesus's great vision of what Christianity should have become and I whole heartedly agree with the premise and morality of that purpose. You can't argue with helping those in trouble and need. That's a liberal ideal too. What I see happening now in the U.S. is a twisting of Jesus's words and ideals into something evil.

Christianity is now being subverted to justify fighting our wars and the attainment of wealth for whoever can get it at any cost, far different from the pacifist Jesus who eschewed wealth for helping the poor and less fortunate. What happened to those morals?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

What's important is how Muslims perceive our reasons for fighting a war, nothing else will matter if we say one thing (fighting for freedom), and do another (kill all Muslims in the name of Christianity). If we don't want an entire religion at war with us in a Holy War, we damn well shouldn't be broadcasting that fact on our weapons when our government is saying something else. Here's some graffiti that's traditional military and NOT religious, although sometimes it crosses the line.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 119533.ece

But here's an idea of what Muslims think about what our military is all about from their perspective after seeing 'inscriptions' on bombs and missiles. Cultures are all different, but perception is everything.

http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/spec ... affiti.htm

I'm not a Muslim or a Christian and I certainly don't want any part of some hyped up and fomented Holy War that will be a waste of our young soldiers. Fight radicals that threaten innocents, yes. Fight all Muslims because they think we're a racist anti-Islamic nation with delusions of total world Christian Domination, NO THANKS! And quit using my tax dollars to do it!

[aaronb]

It's a little silly to think that the people we've been at war with for over 200 years need excuses to hate us. History has pretty clearly demonstrated that appeasement doesn't resolve the issue, so why care if we upset them more?

[Ferno]

i'm talking about the whackos who kill abortion doctors, the whackos who kill gays and priests who bang their alterboys under the guise that their imaginary god wants them to do it.


duh


and the fact that the right side tried to push on us that they were in iraq \"because they hate us for our freedoms\" and that \"it's a mission for peace\"

idiot noise goes silent? no it just shifted from one side to the other.

Take those rose colored glasses off and LOOK.

The mere fact that you look up to the same god means that you can say something about it.. but choose not to makes you just as bad as they are.

\"The Christians are sneaking into Iraq to hand out bibles, food and medicine.\" Now if someone came to my door and offered me a bible even after they knew I subscribed to another religion, I'd be insulted, it would tell me they don't care about my beliefs OR me, and I would tell them to leave the doorstep immediately.

It's not a nice gesture to push your beliefs into someone else's life. it's selfish and self-serving. especially when you know they are devout.

[aaronb]

"The Christians are sneaking into Iraq to hand out bibles, food and medicine." Now if someone came to my door and offered me a bible even after they knew I subscribed to another religion, I'd be insulted, it would tell me they don't care about my beliefs OR me, and I would tell them to leave the doorstep immediately.

It's not a nice gesture to push your beliefs into someone else's life. it's selfish and self-serving. especially when you know they are devout.

I can't believe I'm about to defend Christian proselytizing, but here goes...

First, many people in the Arab countries are NOT devout. Many are, but not all. Many are simply living out their lives in a cultural environment that is heavily influenced by Islam, much like you are living out your life in a cultural environment that is heavily influenced by Christianity.

Second, It's not disrespectful to offer someone information about what you believe in, whether it's a religious view or scientific evidence. If you want to be an ass to someone who thinks (rightly or wrongly) he or she is trying to help you, that's your prerogative, but stating that it's inappropriate for that person to offers his or her information to others is far less appropriate, very much pushing YOUR beliefs onto other peoples' lives.

[Duper]

heh. It's called the free-speech double standard. It's quite popular here in the states.

(even though The first amendment pertains to speaking out about the Government .. but don't muddle the issue with details..)

[SilverFJ]

Wasn't Cortez a Christian?
Start focusing on what you believe and forget about people who distort these beliefs.

Besides, Muslims honor Jesus too...

[flip]

I think it would be a good idea to make the distinction between what we know as americanized muslims and those that live under sharia law. Under sharia law you either convert or kill an infidel.

[Insurrectionist]

I think it would be a good idea to make the distinction between what we know as americanized muslims and those that live under sharia law. Under sharia law you either convert or kill an infidel.

Americanized muslims? I think we need to look at the Fathima Rifqa Bary case on how the americanized muslims are sending threats to kill her and the foster family for her defection to Christianity. Doesn't matter about sharia law. Which by the way puts Christians and Jews in protected status as long as you don't offend or practice you religion in the open and pay your tax called Jizya if you want to live safely in the Muslim state.

[Kilarin]

"The Christians are sneaking into Iraq to hand out bibles, food and medicine." Now if someone came to my door and offered me a bible even after they knew I subscribed to another religion, I'd be insulted, it would tell me they don't care about my beliefs OR me, and I would tell them to leave the doorstep immediately.

It's not a nice gesture to push your beliefs into someone else's life. it's selfish and self-serving. especially when you know they are devout.

It's not disrespectful to offer someone information about what you believe in, whether it's a religious view or scientific evidence.

I'm with aaronb on this. That's why I'm always nice to the Jehovah's Witness's who come to our door. Why not? They want to share IDEAS, and as long as they do it politely, there is nothing wrong with that.

I think this Washington post article pretty much hits the nail on the head.

It's about the free marketplace of ideas. It's capitalism for thinking. Free thought has two parts.
1: The right to share your thoughts with others and champion your beliefs and try to convince others you are right.
2: The right to disagree with or even completely ignore others arguments if you want. As long as you are not harming others, NO ONE should be able to compel you to change your mind.

Without BOTH halves, you aren't really free.

[flip]

Well here's the difference to me and I'm not disagreeing with you. The difference is that even though they are muslims, in this country it's considered murder.So, it would take an extreme person or circumstances for them to be that \"devout\". On the other hand, the middle eastern muslims, that live under sharia law are encouraged to first try and convert those not of their faith and if they refuse, to put them to death. To the point that their whole governments are built around it.

@Duper. Yeah I agree totally. In fact to me their is no difference between the unbeliever and believer. All are Americans to me where they can choose whatever faith they wish. We can sit down at the same table and eat and talk about a myriad of different things. When it comes down to it, if there is gonna be a judgment, everybody stands on their own, and just like blood on the doorposts in Egypt, anyone not bearing the blood of Jesus will not be skipped over. I'm a firm believer in religious freedom, because as unnatural as the above statement sounds I feel the same way about the fundamentals of the other religions. I've said before, I can't help but believe in God. There is too much order. ALL the main religions in this world stem from the same source. There is no other book like it. In fact a challenge. Find me any other race than the Israelites, that lost their homeland for 2000 years, and kept their national heritage and religion and then became reestablished again 2000 years later. I know it was only about 200 years ago America was full of Indians, now we all got a little bit of Indian in us

[Will Robinson]

...
The mere fact that you look up to the same god means that you can say something about it.. but choose not to makes you just as bad as they are.

I have plenty to say about wacko's from all religions. I don't however, try to alter reality by equating Islam and Christianity the way you do because there are centuries of cultural evolution on the Christian side that haven't occurred within Islam.
Where is the Christian equivalent of Iran? A country that since the '70's when the islamic wacko's took over has exported terrorism into the rest of the world, where Christians spread the 'word' the Iranian brand of Islam spreads suicide bombers, car bombs, hostage taking, airline hijacking, government sanctioned assassinations of less than devout Muslims, beheading of journalists etc. etc.
You seriously want to equate the two?!?

There is no Christian government exporting bibles let alone exporting mass murder in the name of their religion a la Islamo-fascist Iran. There is no Christian equivalent of Palestine or Hezbollah or Hamas...

Google a map of 'hotspots' to see how many wars are being fought on the planet and notice how many factions are Islamic....how many are christian?

The Christians are sneaking into Iraq to hand out bibles, food and medicine." Now if someone came to my door and offered me a bible even after they knew I subscribed to another religion, I'd be insulted, it would tell me they don't care about my beliefs OR me, and I would tell them to leave the doorstep immediately.

It's not a nice gesture to push your beliefs into someone else's life. it's selfish and self-serving. especially when you know they are devout.

Well how does that measure up with the preferred methods used by devout Muslims?!? Honor killing your child because she dresses too western?! Blow up dozens of civilians in a town square or on a bus because they don't follow your religion properly?!?

I find the attempt to equate the two institutions to be so weak that you seem to be in denial or outright dishonest.

[woodchip]

Well, we now have proof of a corporate-backed Christian Holy Crusade against Muslims.

Ummm...TC, you do know Trijicon has been putting those codes on their sights long before we went to war with muslim terrorists? And if we are at war with muslims per se, why haven't we opened up internment camps for all the muslims living here?

[SilverFJ]

Where is the Christian equivalent of Iran? A country that since the '70's when the islamic wacko's took over has exported terrorism into the rest of the world, where Christians spread the 'word' the Iranian brand of Islam spreads suicide bombers, car bombs, hostage taking, airline hijacking, government sanctioned assassinations of less than devout Muslims, beheading of journalists etc. etc.
You seriously want to equate the two?!?

THE ONLY GOD IS JEHOVA AND JESUS IS HIS PROPHET!!!!!
*boom!*



....

[Lothar]

if a Muslim civilian sees an unexploded piece of ordinance bearing a Christian message...

Rifle scopes don't usually explode.

And the "Christian message" they bear isn't exactly obvious. If you read the serial number, it's something like J348P17Jn11:35. If I'd typed that string of characters elsewhere, I bet you wouldn't have even picked it up -- seeing as it took at least 13 years for the military to notice. How likely is it that a random Muslim civilian in Iraq or Afghanistan would catch the reference?

People are playing this up like it's a HUUUUUUUGE affront to religious freedom, and a HUUUUUUUGE boon to terrorist recruiting. Come on, people, it's 5-6 characters in a string of gibberish. It's a tempest in a teapot.

Maybe the government should look into specifying "no religious inscriptions" in their next contract. Maybe they'll even modify the current contract with a request that the supplier remove the references (which, by the way, are on everything they make, not just what they sell to the military.) That way we can avoid our government's assault on religious freedom as they buy sekrit jebus messages, because that's an inappropriate use of our tax dollars that say "In God We Trust".

[Kilarin]

People are playing this up like it's a HUUUUUUUGE affront to religious freedom, and a HUUUUUUUGE boon to terrorist recruiting. Come on, people, it's 5-6 characters in a string of gibberish. It's a tempest in a teapot.

Absolutely agree that this WASN'T a big deal. Minor stuff. But now that folks have noticed it, they certainly WILL make it into a tempest that MIGHT (not very likely) overflow the teapot. That includes both those in the US military who are offended (small issue), and the Muslims who point at it as "Proof!" that the Christians are on a crusade. (bigger issue).

Like you said, modifying the next contract is really quite sufficient action unless the tempest gets really ugly on some unexpected front. The Jihadist are going to believe its a holy war no matter what, but there is no reason to give them any extra help in their propaganda.

[Will Robinson]

...Maybe the government should look into specifying "no religious inscriptions" in their next contract...../ /....That way we can avoid our government's assault on religious freedom as they buy sekrit jebus messages, because that's an inappropriate use of our tax dollars that say "In God We Trust".

Touché!

[Spidey]

Who cares…this country has been prosecuting its wars in the name of god, as far back as I can see.

[Bet51987]

.

[Tunnelcat]

Ummm...TC, you do know Trijicon has been putting those codes on their sights long before we went to war with muslim terrorists? And if we are at war with muslims per se, why haven't we opened up internment camps for all the muslims living here?

Hmmmmm, putting subliminal Bible verses on rifle sights that soldiers use to sight and KILL human beings, not just Muslims either. Why does that sound like a VERY not-so-Jesus-like idea!

I'm willing to bet that if more terrorist attacks occur on our soil, history will repeat itself and Muslims will be herded into internment camps 'for our protection'. You can bet that they won't go peacefully like the Japanese did though. I wouldn't if I were Muslim and a U.S. citizen! It would be an affront to my freedom!

Maybe the government should look into specifying "no religious inscriptions" in their next contract. Maybe they'll even modify the current contract with a request that the supplier remove the references (which, by the way, are on everything they make, not just what they sell to the military.) That way we can avoid our government's assault on religious freedom as they buy sekrit jebus messages, because that's an inappropriate use of our tax dollars that say "In God We Trust".

Read the history on that one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

It first appeared during the Civil War due to increased Christian sentiment. Theodore Roosevelt even thought that it evoked God as a "cheap" political motto. It was made mandatory in 1955 during the Cold War with the 'Godless Communists'. Hmph! Like we were superior and needed to flaunt the fact because we believed in God and they didn't (so we were told)!

And why is it an assault on "religious freedom" when we have a secular society and ALL are free to worship as they please. We aren't all Christians and don't need to be spoon fed a certain religion from our own government, especially their hired, publicly paid for defense contractors.

[Lothar]

that's an inappropriate use of our tax dollars that say "In God We Trust".

Read the history on that one

I'm well aware of the history. I just thought it was a funny juxtaposition.

And the amount of fury we're seeing here is way beyond what's warranted.

[Kilarin]

I just thought it was a funny juxtaposition.

It WAS funny. Of course, I don't think we should have religious statements on our money either, but that's a whole nuther can of worms.

And the amount of fury we're seeing here is way beyond what's warranted.

Yep, but not unexpected. It really SHOULD be fixed.

[CUDA]

And the amount of fury we're seeing here is way beyond what's warranted.

Yep, but not unexpected. It really SHOULD be fixed.

No need I think she's already reached Menopause

[Kilarin]

No need I think she's already reached Menopause

HA! Clarification: I think the texts on the sights should be fixed.

[Ferno]

I can't believe I'm about to defend Christian proselytizing, but here goes...

First, many people in the Arab countries are NOT devout. Many are, but not all. Many are simply living out their lives in a cultural environment that is heavily influenced by Islam, much like you are living out your life in a cultural environment that is heavily influenced by Christianity.

Second, It's not disrespectful to offer someone information about what you believe in, whether it's a religious view or scientific evidence. If you want to be an ass to someone who thinks (rightly or wrongly) he or she is trying to help you, that's your prerogative, but stating that it's inappropriate for that person to offers his or her information to others is far less appropriate, very much pushing YOUR beliefs onto other peoples' lives.

It has nothing to do with being an ass or me pushing my beliefs onto a person, but everything to do with common sense and simple courtesy.

Would you go up to a person knowing he is a atheist, agnostic, or jewish with the idea of talking to them about a completely different religion? Probably not.

Would you stand by the proselytizer's behaviour even when they were told no, but persisted?

Now i can't help but wonder.. why did you bring up scientific evidence?

[Kilarin]

Would you go up to a person knowing he is a atheist, agnostic, or jewish with the idea of talking to them about a completely different religion? Probably not.

Well, yes. And Atheist and Agnostics attempt to convert Christians all the time. Free marketplace of ideas.

Would you stand by the proselytizer's behaviour even when they were told no, but persisted?

Rude is rude. It's not evil to knock on a door and ask if you can talk to someone about their beliefs. It WOULD be rude to refuse to leave after you were asked.