Corporate Christian Crusade

[Lothar]

now that folks have noticed it, they certainly WILL make it into a tempest that MIGHT (not very likely) overflow the teapot.

Like Pat Robertson does with the sekrit gay agenda?

The Jihadist are going to believe its a holy war no matter what, but there is no reason to give them any extra help in their propaganda.

If Pat Robertson discovered a sekrit gay code on some consumer product and made a stink about it, would you suggest the manufacturer remove the code because "there's no reason to give Pat Robertson any extra help in his propaganda"? I doubt it. Even if you thought it might be a good idea, there's no WAY you'd be as irate as many of the commenters in this thread.

The military should keep this in mind when the contract comes up for renewal, but there's no reason for outrage or panic.

[Kilarin]

If Pat Robertson discovered a sekrit gay code on some consumer product and made a stink about it, would you suggest the manufacturer remove the code because "there's no reason to give Pat Robertson any extra help in his propaganda"? I doubt it.

Important difference here. We aren't talking about backwards masking, Proctor and Gamble, or gay tele tubbies. Crazy people will ALWAYS find a conspiracy and secret messages in random noise.

But in this case, it isn't anyone's imagination, and the company freely admits that yes, these are Bible texts.

Even if you thought it might be a good idea, there's no WAY you'd be as irate as many of the commenters in this thread.

If the military purchased new canteens, and then it was discovered that etched on the bottom of each canteen was a recommendation that the soldiers spend their spare time giving each other oral sex, AND not only was the message clear and unmistakable, but the company that made the canteens admitted it:

First I'd laugh my head off. Then I'd be quite offended that they foisted this off on the military. Then I'd laugh some more. Then I'd say, "They have REALLY got to get rid of those you know, or at least fix them".

But I don't think that situation really compares fairly to the Bible texts. The Bible texts on the sights seems a more minor issue than something like that. I don't see any reason to try and "fix" any existing sights, (any soldiers who are offended can always file off the texts themselves.) But it DOES seem reasonable to me that the military shouldn't buy any more of the "texted" sights if they can get out of it. The Jihadist will still believe that we are fighting a holy war, yes, but this is a simple thing to do.

The military should keep this in mind when the contract comes up for renewal, but there's no reason for outrage or panic.

I would extend that to asking the company if they would not put the texts on any items being produced for the military from this point forward. But other than that, I agree. This is a small stupid, not a big stupid.

[Spidey]

Yea, but we are fighting a “holy war” whether you want to call it that or not. This war is more about morality and a clash of cultures (religious) than just about any in history. (ours)

Their side already knows the truth, and doesn’t make any bones about it.

JFTR, I don’t see the place for religious text on any military equipment, or am I upset about it…it’s the denial of what kind of war this really is, that bothers me.

[Lothar]

If Pat Robertson discovered a sekrit gay code on some consumer product and made a stink about it, would you suggest the manufacturer remove the code because "there's no reason to give Pat Robertson any extra help in his propaganda"? I doubt it.

Crazy people will ALWAYS find a conspiracy and secret messages in random noise.

You misunderstand me.

I was describing a scenario in which Pat Robertson found a real, intentional gay code on a consumer product. Not crazy imagined random noise, but clearly intentional. And, to make the comparison fair, a product whose users on average don't find the marking particularly offensive.

The key point here is not the code itself. It's whether "this nutjob is using it in his propaganda effort" is a good argument against it. I don't think it is, as the Pat Robertson example clearly illustrates. (I notice you didn't say "yes, the gay message should be removed because of Pat Robertson's propaganda." We all agree that P-Rob is an idiot and we don't care what he thinks.)

"This doesn't belong on military gear" is a fair statement. "The military should ask the manufacturer not to put Bible references on their gear" is also a fair statement. I just don't think avoiding a minor bit of propaganda for nutjobs should be the driving force behind those statements.

[Duper]

You want to know the crux of Christianity and why we're "on a Crusade"?

Watch this vid on Youtube. (lyrics in the info slot)

I assure you there is nothing nefarious or pernicious with those are that are in Christ.

But quite often this the reality. (another video) This is a song done by Monk & Neagle.

Duper, those 2 videos show us what Jesus's great vision of what Christianity should have become and I whole heartedly agree with the premise and morality of that purpose. You can't argue with helping those in trouble and need. That's a liberal ideal too. What I see happening now in the U.S. is a twisting of Jesus's words and ideals into something evil.

Christianity is now being subverted to justify fighting our wars and the attainment of wealth for whoever can get it at any cost, far different from the pacifist Jesus who eschewed wealth for helping the poor and less fortunate. What happened to those morals?

Ok, just noticed this reply (my bad). I posted those vids because that is the aim of my life.

Liberal idea?.. perhaps. Motivation is different. I don't do it to make myself feel good; as some silly "random act of kindness." No, my actions are intentional and with purpose.

If you had read the whole article (perhaps you did) and not some ranting blog, you would seen that the founder of the company was a very devout Christian. He lived this stuff. What you don't get is that Christians are not trying to "control the world". I'm not going to go into a message about salvation and being recovered from being lost. You've heard that before and you've roundly stiff-armed it.

You want twisting Jesus's words into something evil? watch South Park or Family guy any night. The blasphemy on those shows is egregious and no one cares. Why should YOU care about 6 characters stamped on the side of a ACOG scope? It's not a message, it's an INDEX NUMBER for cryin out loud. A person actually has to Go Find a Bible and Look it up and THEN READ IT. That is assuming that the average non-Christian even knows what those letters and numbers mean. A Christian would (or one that reads the bible (.. but I don't mean to go off and a definition tangent)
There was nothing "Secret" about it. The company openly admits it. ABC LIED IN THEIR HEADLINE!

But you don't care about that either and a company has been falsely accused for the sake of a hook.

It is said that there are no athiests in fox holes. A saying I believe came about in WWII. The found this true in Desert storm. Clergy were shocked at the huge numbers coming to Christ on the battle field.

Oh, you can put this feather in your cap if you like. The Christian clergy are being forbayed to make ANY reference of Jesus in any of their sermons or funeral services. Even if those attending or being honored are/were Christians. Christian government plot huh? No TC you're quite wrong here. Quite the opposite. Those in power within the government are trying like crazy to stamp out Jesus and homogenize religion. ...even though they are not to make such laws.

[Ferno]

Well, yes. And Atheist and Agnostics attempt to convert Christians all the time. Free marketplace of ideas.

They don't get a free pass either. Sometimes people just want to be left alone to live out a life they feel is right for them, which I suspect is part of the entire picture.

Rude is rude. It's not evil to knock on a door and ask if you can talk to someone about their beliefs. It WOULD be rude to refuse to leave after you were asked.

The other part of the problem is if they do talk to them, they're liable to have their heads cut off. I don't think these humanitarians realize that the simple act of approaching a potential follower puts both parties in a dangerous position.

and yes, getting rid of the scopes that have the passages engraved on them would be a good first step. Still, many more are needed.

[Will Robinson]

The real bad guy in this isn't Trijicon or even tunnelcat. You can expect TC to be wrong by choice because it serves her political alliegience to the party. Trijicon is just marking their product any old way they want to and have every right to do so.

The bad guy in this is the media who writes headlines/reports that have distortions like like \"secret Jesus codes\" in them. So much of the abuse of power in our government and so much of the misleading campaigning we see would be wiped out with the stroke of a pen if the media would simply do it's job and scream like hell every time someone tried to pass off bull feces as fact.

We actually have a system that makes it legal for a candidate to lie in his campaign speeches and there is no recourse. Of course back in the early years of our republic we had protection from that because the newspapers would destroy any candidate who tried to pull off such a scam. Now we have reporters sit around and marvel at the skills Clinton had for lying so convincingly!!

The story about the \"secret Jesus codes\" is just a continuation of the effort to disparage one political faction to better the chances of another faction during the next election. We now have continuous campaigns being run in the media contributed to by anyone with a voice and the media is no longer trying to filter out the bullcrap instead they see their role as choosing which bullcrap is acceptable! Without the underlying political component to this story there would be no story. At best it would have been one paragraph on page 20 section Z and only after a solution was reached by the army ie; we got the contractor to stop the markings on future product...or we found no issues with the markings..

The greatest protection we have against internal threats is the free press. Once they abandon objectivity and become a player in the game we are doomed.

[Krom]

The greatest protection we have against internal threats is the free press. Once they abandon objectivity and become a player in the game we are doomed.

So when was that? 20 years ago? 30 years ago? Even longer?

[Will Robinson]

The greatest protection we have against internal threats is the free press. Once they abandon objectivity and become a player in the game we are doomed.

So when was that? 20 years ago? 30 years ago? Even longer?

Yea it started at least thirty years ago. It seems to have accelerated lately.

I would never have imagined, even just ten years ago, that on the eve of a Presidential election two of the biggest news anchors in the country would be discussing how they really don't know anything substantial about the candidate that they just helped elect including absolutely nothing about his foreign policy beliefs and his view of the world.
I imagine they are more curious about their toothpaste ingredients than their candidate because for their candidate it only mattered that he wasn't brand X, beyond that they were admittedly not interested enough to ask a single question.

It still amazes me that conversation took place and anyone who mentions it today would be called a radical fringe teabagger and such a dismissal would be supported by the media's slant on it if you could get them to even acknowledge the story.

[CUDA]

I see TC's reaction to this along the same lines as how the Muslim's reacted to the drawing of Mohammed in that Dutch newspaper. she's ready to riot over something insignificant. there are MUCH bigger issues to deal with over Radical Muslim relations. I know a guy here at work that is an Iranian born Muslim, I asked him what he thought of this issue and he started laughing at me he said the Terrorists are winning, they have you changing your life because your scared of what they think, he absolutly correct.

this really is a non story. so what if the serial numbers have a \"Bible Code\" hidden in them. its a privately owned company, they can do anything they want. If the government doesnt like how they stamp their parts they have a choice, DON'T DO BUSINESS WITH THEM.
I care little if we offend the radical Muslims. just the fact that we exist they find offensive, putting a Bible verse in a serial number will not make the situation any worse.

[Spidey]

I guess praying on the battlefield will offend somebody next.

[flip]

LOL people have no idea. I've known many veterans. If you heard half the stories, you wouldn't make such a fuss over a cryptic serial number that probably is just expressing the owners personal beliefs.

If you knew that in reality, they sit there when they snipe someone and make bets to which way they are gonna fall, you would realize this is inane. It's a war. People have to become mean in order to kill. Killing is not natural. In fact, some cryptic serial numbers seem a lot more benign than
many of the other things I've seen wrote.

[Will Robinson]

Anything you do short of helping them kill all the jews and abandoning your religious beliefs to join them in their version of Islam is their justification for killing us with their gods blessing.

So if you're not up for joining team allahbuttlickergenocide don't sweat the cryptic small print on your rifle sights....mmmmkay?

[Kilarin]

Yea, but we are fighting a “holy war” whether you want to call it that or not. This war is more about morality and a clash of cultures (religious) than just about any in history. (ours)

What the Islamic Extremist are trying to push is the idea that the U.S. is out to crush the religion of Islam. There are lots of reasons we are fighting these wars. Many of them I don't approve of. BUT, wiping out Islam is just not one of them. At least not on a national level. So long as you aren't attacking us, dont have anything we want, and dont happen to be in our way, we dont CARE what your religion is.

If Pat Robertson discovered a sekrit gay code on some consumer product and made a stink about it, would you suggest the manufacturer remove the code because "there's no reason to give Pat Robertson any extra help in his propaganda"? I doubt it.

Crazy people will ALWAYS find a conspiracy and secret messages in random noise.

You misunderstand me.
I was describing a scenario in which Pat Robertson found a real, intentional gay code on a consumer product. Not crazy imagined random noise, but clearly intentional. And, to make the comparison fair, a product whose users on average don't find the marking particularly offensive.

The key point here is not the code itself. It's whether "this nutjob is using it in his propaganda effort" is a good argument against it. I don't think it is, as the Pat Robertson example clearly illustrates. (I notice you didn't say "yes, the gay message should be removed because of Pat Robertson's propaganda." We all agree that P-Rob is an idiot and we don't care what he thinks.)

UGH! Sorry, I was being obtuse.

Hmmm. I think my response would depend on what I was trying to accomplish. So, for example, say I were trying to sell tele tubbies and Pat Robertson found an ACTUAL "sekrit gay code" on the fabric we used for our stuffed tele tubby toys.

IF I really didn't CARE what Pat Robetrson and his crowd thought, I'd make this a VERY low priority issue.
On the other hand, if I was already spending time and money fighting the conservative backlash from Pat Robertson's last nutty accusations, and my sales were hurting, then yes, I would get that "sekrit" code off of there as soon as possible.

I think we are in the latter situation. The Islamic Extremist are recruiting based, in part, on convincing other Muslims that the Christians are trying to wipe out Islam. We are trying to counter that suggestion. We aren't going to change the minds of the current terrorists, but we might be able to reduce the pool of moderates who they can recruit from.

Just like, in your Pat Robertson example, you aren't going to change the mind of Pat or his hard core followers, but denying them propaganda tools can reduce the number of moderates that they are able to tip over to their point of view.

Sometimes people just want to be left alone to live out a life they feel is right for them, which I suspect is part of the entire picture.

Everyone has the right, or at least SHOULD have the right, to decide for themselves what they believe. They do NOT have the right to make other people approve, or even make other people not tell them they are wrong. You can't have a free marketplace of ideas if no one is allowed to argue for their beliefs.

You DO have the right to tell someone you aren't interested and then quit listening. You DO have the right to tell someone no and shut the door. You DO have the right to not read their books or web pages, or listen to their radio stations, or watch their TV programs.

Everyone has the right to preach. No one has any obligation to listen.

I don't think these humanitarians realize that the simple act of approaching a potential follower puts both parties in a dangerous position.

They fully realize it. They just also think some things are worth dying for. In particular, they think that the truth is worth dying for. I may disagree with them about what the truth is, but I don't disagee that knowing the truth is worthwhile, even at great risk.

so what if the serial numbers have a "Bible Code" hidden in them. its a privately owned company, they can do anything they want. If the government doesnt like how they stamp their parts they have a choice, DON'T DO BUSINESS WITH THEM.

I don't think anyone has been arguing that the company didn't have a right to mark their product however they wished. I think the only argument has been whether or not the government should be purchasing that product.

[Tunnelcat]

No need I think she's already reached Menopause

It's all that damned testosterone I have now! No more nice estrogen dominance to mellow my attitude anymore!

[woodchip]

Well I see that right after the \"Code\" the letters USA are clearly seen. Since we are viewed as the Great Satan, perhaps we should also require \"USA\" be removed as being offensive to some Muslims. In short, lets just let the terrorist win because obviously, fighting them is also seen as something offensive by some Muslims. Isn't this how they win, a little chip here, a little chip there.

[Kilarin]

In short, lets just let the terrorist win because obviously, fighting them is also seen as something offensive by some Muslims.

There is a big difference between saying "we don't want to offend any Muslims" and saying "This isn't a Christians vs Muslims war"

Despite being a Christian majority, America has people of MANY faiths, including Muslim's, who are fighting in this war. Irrespective of whether America's reasons for fighting these wars are right, wrong, or just plain stupid, it's not a Religious war on OUR side.

[Tunnelcat]

In short, lets just let the terrorist win because obviously, fighting them is also seen as something offensive by some Muslims.

There is a big difference between saying "we don't want to offend any Muslims" and saying "This isn't a Christians vs Muslims war"

Despite being a Christian majority, America has people of MANY faiths, including Muslim's, who are fighting in this war. Irrespective of whether America's reasons for fighting these wars are right, wrong, or just plain stupid, it's not a Religious war on OUR side.

Thank you Kilarin. That's my point exactly. Trijicon could have inscribed 'Freedom Lives', 'USA Rocks' or even 'This One's for You' on their products, but they choose specific religious references that don't represent the beliefs the entire U.S. populace.

Trijicon has pulled the 'inscriptions', finally.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/jesus-rif ... id=9618791

Christians keep calling themselves 'victims' of discrimination and hate. Well, what about all of those that are NOT Christian and are tired of getting it shoved down their throats, day in and day out? Maybe Christians need to take a deep look at themselves and what they're doing, not how others are living their lives. We are not a Christian Theocracy.

Lord Save Us From Your Followers

[CUDA]

U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1


.........or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech

the beauty of our consitution

[Will Robinson]

...Well, what about all of those that are NOT Christian and are tired of getting it shoved down their throats, day in and day out?..

Have you got an example of where you have had it shoved down your throat?
I know in other countries you can get your head chopped off just for going against the local religious majority but I'm having a hard time thinking of any example in the U.S. where Christians are able to do anything close to your description of having it shoved down your throat.
Is this yet another example of you having to grossly exaggerate the circumstances just to find something to ★■◆● about?

[Kilarin]

.........or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech

the beauty of our consitution

It IS wonderful. The free exercise clause certainly protects a company that wants to engrave bible texts onto the gun sights it is building. The establishment clause keeps the government from promoting religion. Which, in my opinion, makes the military buying gun sights tagged with bible texts a bad idea. Not a major infringement, but a bad idea.

But it is in NO WAY an abridgment of your free exercise or free speech if others choose not to purchase or use your product. For example, the Dixie Chicks screamed that their free speech was being abridged when conservatives boycotted their cd's. Freedom works both ways. You have the freedom to speak, I have the freedom to ignore you.

[Bet51987]

.

[Will Robinson]

I'm having a hard time thinking of any example in the U.S. where Christians are able to do anything close to your description of having it shoved down your throat.

Hmmm. It was wearing a different suit at the time but the Kansas board of Education comes to mind.

Bee

You'll have to bring me up to speed on what they did and how it is akin to forcing Christian beliefs on us/you daily since that is the allegation TC made.

EDIT: nevermind, I found what you probably meant. Starting in mid 2005 and lasting for a whole 18 months the Kansas school board voted to include criticism of the until then exclusive lesson of evolution, point out it is a theory, and suggest student consider alternative theories to the origins of man and earth...
Wow, so for 18 months, in one state, it was the recomendation of the board to put the theory of evolution under scrutiny....OMFSM the humanity!! (oh my flying spaghetti monster for you heathens out there).

I'm sorry but this only gets you fractionally where TC claims we are. Yes, there you have a remote and short lived instances of some christians getting to 'force it down your throat'....well....it was more like they insisted a second dish be mentioned by the waiter when he came to take your order but it sure is a far cry from the sky is falling on TC's head daily.

To avoid being challenged into a rehash evolution debate I will say that I think Biology is the wrong class to insist ID or creationism be introduced in any context because biology is science and the best that can be said about creationism in that context is that god created everything and the evolution is simply the process by which his creation lives. Can't really prove it, can't disprove it and so it would be a very short class if it was the exclusive theory. I think it would be good for all biology teachers to mention that Darwin, the father of evolution, was pro creation before he died. A simple tidbit that could be carried across the hall into the social studies and/or history classrooms to be explored further. At least if I was on the federal school board of one for life that's what you would get from me...right down your throats!

[Bet51987]

.

[CUDA]

Darwin did not recant and stood firmly with his logical scientific explanation of life.

and you obviously have proof of this statement.

[Will Robinson]

...
And, since you mentioned federal, this is why people like Sarah Palin and Huckabee scare me because they would send the education system back to the past.

Another thing that occurs to me Bee, you are pissed off at the Kansas board for going all Christian on us yet you whine that Palin and Huckabee represent a threat at the federal level.
Well you can't have it both ways. You'll either have to leave it at the more local level and accept what the locals want for their locale...or put it in the hands of some federal czar who will have the potential to 'ram it down everyones throat'.
What you are really asking for is everyone to have your view, unfortunately that is the epitome of liberal position these days.

[flip]

Yeah who gives a damn what Palin or any of the rest of them think, I'm more interested in what my neighbor thinks themselves personally. Not some grand idea that just gets parroted by others.

[Sergeant Thorne]

TC, you're out of your mind.

From the photo in that first article:

Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."

All of those verses seem to reference light. Are these night-time scopes? Military humor?

[flip]

Interesting.

[Sergeant Thorne]

The Acogs are internally-adjustable, compact telescopic sights with tritium illuminated reticle patterns for use in low light or at night. Bindon Aiming Concept (BAC)* models feature bright daytime reticles using fiber optics which collect ambient light. The Acogs combine traditional, precise distance marksmanship with close-in aiming speed. Although the Acogs have many features which are very advantageous for military use, they were developed by Trijicon without government funding. Designed for use with the M16 family, every feature of its mechanical and optical design was chosen for a single purpose: to provide increased hit potential in all lighting conditions -- without failure-prone batteries.

[Duper]

That's some amazing engineering.

[aaronb]

It has nothing to do with being an ass or me pushing my beliefs onto a person, but everything to do with common sense and simple courtesy.

Would you go up to a person knowing he is a atheist, agnostic, or jewish with the idea of talking to them about a completely different religion? Probably not.

Would you stand by the proselytizer's behaviour even when they were told no, but persisted?

Now i can't help but wonder.. why did you bring up scientific evidence?

In your original post, you stated that someone coming to your door and offering you a bible was offensive. You are being an ass in this case.

If that person persists after you say no, then that person is being an ass, just like any annoying salesman.

I added scientific evidence because many people have the same blind faith in science that others have in God/Jesus and they push it just as hard as the religious nuts. It's important to identify whether your problem is with religious people or with pushy people -- they are two entirely separate characteristics.

[Ferno]

In your original post, you stated that someone coming to your door when they KNOW that you are of a different belief and offering you a bible was offensive.

fixed it for you.

I added scientific evidence because many people have the same blind faith in science that others have in God/Jesus and they push it just as hard as the religious nuts. It's important to identify whether your problem is with religious people or with pushy people -- they are two entirely separate characteristics.

belief in science? WTF?

[dissent]

Darwin did not recant and stood firmly with his logical scientific explanation of life.

and you obviously have proof of this statement.

Yeah, if you're referring to the Lady Hope story, it looks to be pretty much a myth.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CG/CG001.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hope.html

This doesn't mean Darwin was a fire-breathing atheist. It just means he did not renounce his findings around natural selection as an operative mechanism for evolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Da ... n_religion

[Tunnelcat]

Will, Bet beat me to the punch, but how about the old Scopes Monkey trial in 1925 testing the Butler Act. Religion has never given up trying to stop the teaching of science and the 'theory' of evolution since Darwin published it. Christians just can't get it through their minds that it's JUST A THEORY at the moment, yet they think it's some kind of attack on their religious beliefs. The Kansas School Board fight is just another modern example of religious intrusion into the public schools with a new twist, by requiring the teaching of so-called non-scientific 'Creationism'. If Christians want to teach it, they are free to do it in their own churches and private schools, no one's stopping them. However, it shouldn't be done with taxpayer money.

Then we have the right-wing media pushing the 'War on Christmas' tripe as a lightening rod to polarize and divide public opinion on the evils of those secular public schools and public or government places that remove or ban religious displays when someone asks that they be taken down. How about Christians blaming the moral demise of our society on the banning of prayer in public schools as well. I don't even see Christian beliefs stopping supposedly Christian Senators from having multiple affairs! Fat lot of good that does! So why would prayer do any good for society as a whole? Then there's the taking of government public money to proselytize under the guise of aid in foreign countries. How about the gay marriage issue too? Christians are essentially taking away a segment of the population's civil rights based on the Bible and a new definition of marriage to suit the situation. If marriage was only for procreation, then all childless marriages would be illegal.

Christians can have and practice their religion freely, in church and within their own lives, but it seems that when it comes to the general public and those public institutions at large, they want to be able to influence those as well. They just can't seem to be happy unless everyone is either a Christian or at least, follows those beliefs.

[TechPro]

Will, Bet beat me to the punch, but how about the old Scopes Monkey trial in 1925 testing the Butler Act. Religion has never given up trying to stop the teaching of science and the 'theory' of evolution since Darwin published it. Christians just can't get it through their minds that it's JUST A THEORY at the moment, yet they think it's some kind of attack on their religious beliefs. ...

It's not a matter of "can't get it through their minds that it's JUST A THEORY at the moment" ... It's a matter of Darwin's Theory being taught AS FACT (with the word "Theory" tacked on) that the Christians have a problem with, especially when the Christian viewpoint is not allowed to be taught side-by-side.

Fix that in how Darwin's Theory is taught in the schools, and the Christion problem with it is over.

Of course, nobody can fix that because the Christian viewpoint on other matters is either not being permitted, or is actively getting pushed out of the schools.

So... The ONLY way to get both sides to get along, would be to have BOTH viewpoints taught side-by-side in the schools ... which, of course, will never happen.

[Duper]

I was taught evolution in 10th grade biology and how it works. And I was never told is was \"still theory\". It was more like this is how it is. period. (I got a B in both semesters in biology btw. )

[Will Robinson]

TC you seem to be equating christians voicing their opinion with them shoving it down our throats. That is an extreme exaggeration of the situation. So far in one hundred years of recent history you give two examples of very slight and temporary effect upon only a small portion of the general public by christians yet you say they should all keep it in their own lives or within their church. Seems to me your opinion that they should keep their opinion silent, behind closed doors, is the attempt to shove it down their throats....

You have a tendency to over react to anything that isn't right in line with your own view.

Your problem is you are a minority who thinks she is superior over the majority.
Americans identify themselves as Christians by a large ratio so it isn't unexpected that Christian customs would be alive and well in a country where the originators gave credit to the Christian god for the freedoms the new government was designed to protect. We're only 234 years old you know! Considering all the other governments that are influenced by a religion we are light years ahead of all of them in our tolerance and progressive policies separating church and state.
I find your selfish need to rid the world of any trace Christianity to be foolish and unwarranted. Our laws have kept things working quite well including the very few instances you were able to come up with.

Living in America is a very far cry from having any religion shoved down your throat. On a list of good places to live where you can be sure to be free from religious rule America will be on the top....unless you have a strong need to wear Chinese pajamas and march in lock step with the Party leaders on every issue but then considering your politics maybe that is exactly what you are looking for and just don't know it.

[Duper]

Well put Will.

TC, you are an atypical example of liberal ideology. Paranoid and all for a double standard, but I'm sure you have no idea why I see it that way.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I don't see anything that says you are not allowed to talk to anyone about your religious beliefs. Freedom of speech has nothing to do with the public quarter vs the public. It's about the Feds vs the public.

[Ferno]

It's not a matter of "can't get it through their minds that it's JUST A THEORY at the moment" ... It's a matter of Darwin's Theory being taught AS FACT (with the word "Theory" tacked on) that the Christians have a problem with, especially when the Christian viewpoint is not allowed to be taught side-by-side.

couple things. The theory of relativity is also taught and no one seems to have a problem with that, and teaching CREATIONISM beside actual science sabotages the entire teaching method.

Can you imagine what kind of reaction that would occur if they suddenly started teaching other religious viewpoints like scientology beside actual course material?


Let's not get the message muddled here. "alternative viewpoints to evolution", "intelligent design" and all those other memes are only used to disuade from the fact that it's actually called CREATIONISM and trying to persuade people otherwise is just abusive.


Why is it that religious people always feel like their faith is under attack? probably because they feel the need to try and control the thought process of other people.