Logitech Sticks - Love 'em and hate 'em...

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:27 am

Well, My Logitech Wingman 3d Extreme joystick has broken yet again...

Logitech makes a nice, solid-feeling joystick, with a pleasant resistance, ample buttons for me (I fly all on the stick) and great responsiveness.

Then within 10 days of usage, the X axis begins to become erratic, turning sharply right unpredictably whenever the stick is at center.

In game, this leads to a whipsawing motion when trying to aim vauss etc, although to some degree it can be compensated for by making my default chords down/left.

I'm on my 3rd exchange, as I informed Logitech, and yet all they can do is suggest I call tech support (again) and troubleshoot on the phone (again) and possibly obtain an RMA.

Anyone have any suggestions on how to make this damn stick work for me short of exchanging it? Perhaps some unauthorized mods or some such? Have soldering iron...will disassemble!

email transcript to follow in next post. The skim factor of the support reps is nothing short of amazing....

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:29 am

From: <Bunyip@XXXXXXXX.net>
To: <customer.support@logitech.globalsupport.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Product Support for: Logitech Extreme 3D Pro

I have already returned the product for exchange 3 times and had the same defect occur within 2 weeks of exchange. Thus...

> At this point, my main question is: Is there or is there not a known hardware weakness in the sensors of these joysticks.

And has this issue been addressed in any product I might receive as part of an RMA exchange?

If you could please answer this question I would appreciate it.

Sincerely Yours

---

>
> From: Premalatha <customer.support@logitech.globalsupport.com>
> Date: 2004/04/26 Mon PM 11:05:36 EDT
> To: <Bunyip@XXXXXXXX.net>
> Subject: Re: Product Support for: Logitech Extreme 3D Pro <<#387680-462532#>>
>
> Dear Logitech Customer,
>
> Thank you for contacting Logitech's Electronic Customer Support.
>
> We regret that you are experiencing a problem with a Logitech gaming device.
>
> If the device is defective, the fastest form of exchange is through the point of purchase
> (POP). Most resellers will offer an exchange or refund option for a limited time. Please
> contact the POP for available exchange options.
>
> If you can't exchange the device through your POP, we would like to replace your
> device while it is covered under our manufacturerâ??s warranty period. Due to the nature
> of product exchanges, we ask that you call the Logitech Customer Support HotLine to
> receive a Return Merchandise Authorization (RMA) number. Unfortunately, we
> cannot provide this number through the Electronic Technical Support (e-mail) system.
>
> To obtain your RMA number, please contact our Customer Support Hotline at 702-
> 269-3457. Our Technical Support Agents can be reached Monday through Friday from
> 7:00 AM to 5:00 PM PST (Excluding Some Holidays).
>
> If you live outside the US or Canada please refer to the following URL to locate the
> Logitech support center closest to you:
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm?page= ... nguageid=1
>
> Some issues will require general troubleshooting to be performed by the agent to
> determine if a product is actually defective. To save you time, please be at your system
> and have the following pieces of information available when you call:
> (1) Model number or Part number of the Logitech product
> (2) Software version for your Logitech product.
> (3) Type of computer (e.g. Pentium, 486).
> (4) Make of computer (brand name).
> (5) Version of your Operating System (OS).
> (6) Troubleshooting steps that you have tried.
>
> Please note that warranty is determined by the product serial number or a proof of
> purchase (receipt). Therefore, it is important that you have the product and/or receipt
> with you when you call. Failure to provide us with any of the information may impede
> the speed of fulfilling your request.
>
> If your product is out of warranty, you may be able to replace it after paying an out of
> warranty charge.
>
> If you have any additional questions regarding your product, please feel free to visit our
> website at www.logitech.com. Thank you for your interest in Logitech.
>
> Regards,
>
> Premalatha
> Logitech Customer Support
>
> --- Original Message ---
> From: <Bunyip@XXXXXXXX.net>
> Received: 04/26/2004 10:29am Eastern Standard Time (GMT - 4:00 )
> To: Premalatha <customer.support@logitech.globalsupport.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: Product Support for: Logitech Extreme 3D Pro
>
> I am currently running DirectX 9.0b, and have been since I bought the joystick. As for
> installation/reinstallation of the software - This problem occurs whether the software is
> installed or not. I had not installed the software until AFTER the problem began
> occuring, and have tried every possible combination of installation, uninstallation,
> calibration deletion and restarting.
>
> Additionally, this issue occurs on ALL computers on which I have tested the controller.
> Therefore, I believe this is a HARDWARE issue. Honestly, it feels to me as though you
> didn't read my message.
>
> As I stated previously:
>
> >I am on my third controller with this problem at this point. After about a week to 10
> days, the X axis begins to become erratic, turning spontaneously to the right.
>
> > Deleting calibration data and restarting does not resolve the issue.
>
> > This issue occurs when in the control panel as well as while in game, so it is not
> >game specific.
>
> Furthermore, calls to tech support have yielded no fruit, despite the fact that all
> suggested steps have been taken...
>
> At this point, my main question is: Is there or is there not a known hardware weakness
> in the sensors of these joysticks.
>
>
>
> ------original message------
> >
> > From: Premalatha <customer.support@logitech.globalsupport.com>
> > Date: 2004/04/25 Sun PM 11:44:58 EDT
> > To: Bunyip@XXXXXXXX.net
> > Subject: Re: Product Support for: Logitech Extreme 3D Pro <<#387680-462532#>>
> >
> > Dear Logitech Customer,
> >
> > Thank you for contacting Logitech's Electronic Customer Support.
> >
> > We are sorry for the issue you are experiencing with your Logitech gaming device.
> >
> > As you are experiencing erratic behavior in gameplay, please make sure you are
> >running DirectX 9.x or higher. DirectX 9.x can be downloaded from the Microsoft
> >website at
> >
> > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/deta ... laylang=en
> >
> > If you are unsure about what version of DirectX you are using, click Start, Find, then
> >Files or folders. In the named field, type DirectX. When it finds the DirectX folder,
> >open it and find a file named DXDIAG. When the Direct X Diagnostic screen
> >appears, look for the Direct X Version Number.
> >
> > If the calibration issue persists, please download and run the Logitech WingMan
> >Clear Calibration Utility (LWS_CLRC.EXE). The WingMan Clear Calibration Utility
> >was developed by Logitech to resolve calibration problems with Logitech digital
> >gaming devices. NOTE: This utility strips all calibration information in the Windows
> >Registry for all gaming devices. This includes any non-Logitech gaming devices that
> >have been installed. The Logitech Clear Calibration Utility can be found at the
> >following URL: http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/downl ... areid=5484
> > You may also want to uninstall and reinstall the WingMan Software as well, and in
> >some cases if the calibration issue is within a game, the game may require to be
> >uninstalled and reinstalled as well.
> >
> > If you are still having calibration issues, we suggest you call our Customer Support
> >Department at (702) 269-3457 for live assistance. Our phones are open from 7:00AM
> >to 5:00PM Pacific Time Monday through Friday, excluding some holidays. Our
> >agents can walk you through the necessary steps to correct the issue.
> >
> > If you have any additional questions regarding your product, please feel free to visit
> >our website at www.logitech.com. Thank you for your interest in Logitech.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Premalatha
> > Logitech Customer Support
> >
> > --- Original Message ---
> > From: Bunyip@XXXXXXXX.net
> > Received: 04/25/2004 01:39pm Eastern Standard Time (GMT - 4:00 )
> > To: customer.support@logitech.globalsupport.com
> > Subject: Product Support for: Logitech Extreme 3D Pro
> >
> >
> >
> > Date: 04/25/04 10:35:52
> >
> >
> > Email: Bunyip@XXXXXXXX.net
> > Phone: ext:
> > Category: Joysticks
> > Product: Logitech Extreme 3D Pro
> > Software: 4.30.253
> > Part Number: J-UF17
> > Computer Brand: Dell
> > Operating System: winXP
> >
> > Description of Problem: X axis erratic. I am on my third controller
> > with this problem at this point. After about a week to 10 days, the X
> > axis begins to become erratic, turning spontaneously to the right.
> > Deleting calibration data and restarting does not resolve the issue.
> > Unplugging the stick and restarting, and plugging the stick back in
> > after restart does not resolve the issue. Combining the calibration
> > deletion and unplugging/restarting/re-plugging the stick does not
> > reslove the issue. Increasing the deadzone using the software only
> > increases the distance from center that the erratic behavior occurs
> > within, and hinders performance in game due to increased travel
> > necessary to effect a turn. This issue occurs when in the control panel
> > as well as while in game, so it is not game specific. The behavior
> > appears to be hardware in origin, rather than software related. Calls
> > to your tech support lines have not resolved the issue, nor has
> > replacement of the hardware, as the same issue occurs within a short
> > period of time.
> >
> > I LOVE the product in every other way, except for this issue.
> >
> > Request Country: USA
> > Request Language: ENG
> >

TheCops · Post by **TheCops** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:36 am

same stick. same problems. though i also use the keyboard for slides, f/b, and afterburner. it's so frustrating at times.

Warlock · Post by **Warlock** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:39 am

wtf are u doing beating it with a hammer

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:16 am

No

I do use the twist function a lot but I'm very gentle on my sticks (compared to most D3 players) except for the hat switches.

I'm never suprised when a hat switch fails

I know my little thumbie pushes those suckers right through the mountings.

On the other hand, I've NEVER, in 5 years or so of playing Descent, had a stick fail on the X or Y axis.

Until the last 3 logitech POS sticks that is.

DigiJo · Post by **DigiJo** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:25 am

some people in team[nub] had the same stick and the same problems, i already started a thread in the logitech-forums, mailed them etc. on the logitech forums a lot other people from other games reported the same problem.

its a basic hardware-design prob with this stick. i have an older logitech freedom as well (1,5 years old)with basically the same design but cordless, and different electronics in (bluetooth). i disassabled both sticks (the old freedom and the new extreme3d pro) and found that they use the same sensors and basicall the same hardware design including mircoswitches, but a lot of wires needed for calibration data are missing. i guees they thought it would be cheaper in massproduction and they can handle the axis-jumping and missing calibration data by software, but found out now that they cant.

logitech knows that now for over a year, and they still sell that stick without design improvement.

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:38 am

You know, I wouldn't mind paying 50, 60 or even 100 dollars for a joystick that would FREAKING WORK and NOT FREAKING BREAK or that had EASILY REPLACABLE BREAKABLE PARTS IF IT DID BREAK.

bastards.

Digi- If missing calibration data is the problem, what I want to know then is, why does it only start after a week or 2?

Warlock · Post by **Warlock** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:54 am

thats y i love my MS Sidewinder FF they got a metal rod in the hanndle and can take one hell of a beating

DarkShadow · Post by **DarkShadow** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:55 am

I've got a Logitech Wingman digital extreme 3d sitting here beside me. It has given me no problems for over 2 years of use.

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:14 am

Well Dark Shadow... I don't know if they redesigned the problem into the stick or what...

Try googling "logitech joystick calibration"

Apparently these sticks turn to the right for no reason after a week or two of use, and it's been going on for a while.

Oh well I'm just going to make best buy miserable and then RMA this stick to oblivion.

AceCombat · Post by **AceCombat** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:56 am

i had this issue with a logi, if my memory serves me right, it has something to do with the sensor itself scrubbing the resistance carbon off the sweeper blade and causing the internal CPU to think it has been rotated completely to the right.

i do remember another serious issue, the twist sensor was poorly designed and had wires twisted around it, causing striping of the insulation, thus resulting in erracting button activation.

a suggested stick to get is the Thrust Master Top Gun AfterBurner II, its a dual/single unit setup AKA HOTAS ( Hands On Throttle And Stick ). the only problem ive had out of this unit is the hat as usual. they come with a 1 year factory warranty.

Product: http://www.compusa.com/products/product ... pfp=BROWSE

FFB Model: http://www.compusa.com/products/product ... pfp=BROWSE

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:09 pm

WarAd, if you don't want to RMA the stick every one to two weeks, try the Freedom 2.4 -- the 2.4 usually lasts ~1-6 months before the twitching starts (it's more likely to break the hat switch 1st

). Also the return spring is a bit less stiff, ship handles better IMO (gee, what am I saying..

).

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:51 pm

*cough* SW3DPro *cough* Ebay *cough*

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:01 pm

Been there, done that -- the Freedom 2.4/Extreme 3D are far superior.

(when working..)

Deadmeat · Post by **Deadmeat** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:03 pm

Ok, WA, here's what I've been through.

11-08-03 Purchased first stick

Noticed X & R axes going bad. Would turn right and roll.

12-03-03 Replaced stick at Walmart

X axis started acting up

12-18-03 E-mailed Logitech

12-20-03 Received reply

12-21-03 Stick became unusable. Started using Saitek Evo.

12-22-03 Called Tech Support

01-05-04 Received stick from Logitech and started using.

01-06-04 Replaced 2nd stick at Walmart

01-14-04 Logitech stick lost half of right X axis range. Did clean install of game and V4.25
software. V4.30 would not install; "uninstinit:could not load Insthlpr.dll into memory".
Stick now responds, but is not linear. Will drift right if let go.

01-15-04 Glitchy off center. Travels half range before reacting.

01-15-04 Called Logitech, worked with Dan. Removed registries, installed V4.30. No change.
Received RMA #130918. Asked to return stick to Logitech. Returned via UPS to:
Logitech, Inc.
Attn: Customer Support
RMA #HD267238 - RMA #130918
6505 Kaiser Drive
Fremont, Ca 94555

01-15-04 Opened 3rd stick from Walmart.

01-18-04 Noticed some x axis twitching right to left. Got progressively worse. Developed into a drift.
Problem is intermittant, but became unplayable.

01-26-04 Replaced 3rd stick at Walmart. Started using it.

01-27-04 Received 2nd RMA stick from Logitech.

02-15-04 Same as before. Started twitching after a few days. Got worse to point of being almost unplayable, but
would then cure itself. Finally had to break out 2nd Logitech stick.

04-15-04 Returned 4th stick to Walmart.

Walmart has a 90 day replacement program from the replacement date, not the original purchase date. So I can get a new one every 90 days until they quit stocking them. They were out of stock when I took that last one back so they gave me a credit card. And they dropped the price on them so I'll make $4 on the deal.

You'll notice the last stick from Logitech has lasted since Feb. 15. It's gotten glitchy a few times, but it always corrects itself. Maybe I just got lucky. Anyway, like you, I love the stick. Just hate the hassle of replacing them.

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:18 pm

Hmm
I'm gonna get my money back from best buy and go to wal mart!

whoohoo!

I have one ON the way home from work.

Darkside Heartless · Post by **Darkside Heartless** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:48 pm

I took a look inside of an old logitek, and the sensors are incredibly small and made of plastic.

No wonder they break so easily. I have the saitex X45 and it's a solid as a rock, about as heavy, but the only thing I broke so far was one of the 4 hat switches. Extremely expensive though at $85

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:03 pm

Meathead, the x45 doesn't have "da twist" and it's hat switch breaks even faster than anything I saw so far.

Sigh, why didn't Logitech stick w/ the Interceptor technology ?

pipsqueak10 · Post by **pipsqueak10** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:30 pm

Isn't there any stick out there that doesn't have a hat switch that breaks so easily. I'm down to my last MS Pre2 and know I'll be going into mourning when it breaks.

AceCombat · Post by **AceCombat** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:22 pm

usualy replacing the micro swtiches with ones from a VCR or a DVD Player will make them last damn near 20x longer.

ive been told by fellow d3'ers that the switches in most sticks are based on very very fragile componnents

BUBBALOU · Post by **BUBBALOU** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:28 pm

CH Products : Nice thing about this company is you can combine any of these product with any other joystick as a combo
Combatstick with Pro Throttle and Pro Pedals

Thustmaster : anything other than these items below are just absolute crap
Cougar HOTAS with Elite

Just goes to show you get what you pay for buy cheap get cheap! spend alot of gas in returns

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:01 pm

Well the whole point here is to keep my "all on the stick" config, since I'm not adapting well to KB/stick combo.

Thus the freedom 2.4 doesn't work (well it does, but it shorts me 3 buttons which I've grown to like)

The CH products line, ditto, robs me of the all on ths stick config.

However, it looks like maybe I will end up stuck using my Sidewinder 3d Pro eventually.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:11 am

hmm.. sounds like a job for an electronics nerd.

I guess when i pick one up, i'll pull it apart, toss the crappy potentiometers in it and replace them with high quality ones...

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:56 am

I put "check out digital pots" on my list..

Edit: Bunyip, n52 ?

whuppinboy · Post by **whuppinboy** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:30 am

i'm doing something wrong? have had a M$ PP2 USB and it still works to this day, almost 4 years later of "playing"

D3. of course, i've switched to the saitek cyborg evo, imo it's more responsive, heavier and way more customizable

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:25 am

My soldering days are almost 20 years behind me, when I breadboarded a blue box for nefarious purposes. I may have to take up the heated stylus again, I can see that it's becoming necessary in this day and age to rebuild consumer level products just to obtain reasonable functionality.

Sigh.

My current strategy, however, is different! I just went to my local 24 hr WalMart and purchased a new Logitech. Given the 90 day return policy, and the fact that the sticks break with such frequency, I figure that with a second stick I can just hot-swap ad infinitum, and always have a backup.

Ask yourself a question Whuppinboy:

Do you see people who regularly spank you having troubles with their sticks? Or is it people you regularly beat who have the problems?

That will let you know if you're doing something wrong

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:57 am

Glad I use mouse!

whuppinboy · Post by **whuppinboy** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:39 am

WarAdvocat wrote: Ask yourself a question Whuppinboy:

Do you see people who regularly spank you having troubles with their sticks? Or is it people you regularly beat who have the problems?

That will let you know if you're doing something wrong

oh i know i have config issues

, i get regularly spanked in the mines, i need some serious help in that aspect.

back on topic though: i just commented cuz it sounds like y'all really rank on your sticks when you're playing.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:08 pm

I started thinking about this thing -- cheapest I've seen it so far is $200 tho. And it looks like it'll involve some serious programming to make it work too..

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:52 pm

O_O

DAYUM!

I'm glad my Wingman Strike Force 3D hasn't gone south...

Of course I've got an old Wingman Extreme Digital to part out incase something in this one fails. (which works on its own, including the MacGyver job I dod on the Y axis after my niece sat on the damn thing, breaking the plastic clip holding it "firm") If you feel like trying a solder job, let me know what you need and I'll see if it has it. If it doesn't, I'll drive a mile down the road to Radio Shack and see if they have what you need.

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:31 pm

Whuppinboy, to be honest, I don't know if it's config issues. From what I hear, it's amazing that I play as well as I do (however poorly that actually is).

I use an "all on the stick" config.

Hat=Slide
X,Y=Pitch,Yaw
R(twist)=Bank(spin longitudinally)
Buttons on stick/Trigger- Fire primary/secondary & cycle primary/Secondary

Buttons on Base- Forward, reverse, afterburner, plus flare/countermeasure etc.

I NEVER have had a stick break before on the X/Y axis. What consistently breaks is the hat switch, due to pressing too hard in times of stress... That is to say...if you push harder, maybe you'll slide faster...

Depending on your config, maybe that's the reason you've never broken a stick.

whuppinboy · Post by **whuppinboy** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:19 pm

well my hat is used for sliding, trigger is for primaries, x/y/r used for all the banks and stuff and delegate the keyboard for forward, reverse, afterburner and secondaries.

i get the feeling it's the sliding/trichording that is my major issue, the hat just doesn't responsive enough to me.

i will say though that lately i've been really ranking on the stick and it's held up quite well for the past two months.

but enuff of my prob's in the mines!

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:27 pm

what stick

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:30 pm

whuppinboy wrote:.. i've switched to the saitek cyborg evo ..

Well, any electronic geeks out here ? What do you think about using a DPP along w/ something like this ?

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:32 am

aw hell that should be easy to whip up. just tell me where i can pick them up and when i have the cash i'll figure something out.

wiring those two up together should take me about a half hour, give or take.