Jose Padilla?

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:48 am

We haven't had a discussion on this guy yet. What are your takes? My view, no matter what he did, he is still an American and is entitled to the rights thereof. Those are liberties that were intended to be undeniable. Some of you might think, well, he was in bed with Al Qaeda, does that strip him of his American citizenship? I think no

Tricord · Post by **Tricord** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:55 am

I have a CD from a certain JosÃ© Padilla. I was told he was a spanish DJ. We talking about the same person?

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:04 am

here's who he is

Since he is a citizen and his arrest happened on U.S. soil I don't see how they can deny him his rights.
He's an asshat criminal and deserves jail time for sure though.

Tricord · Post by **Tricord** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:01 am

Yea we're not talking about the same person.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/st ... 48-4343254

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:45 am

Oh absolutely Will, but he does deserve his day in court. That is a right that even though we may hate to give to him, he gets it. Holding "enemy combantants" indefinitely is pretty scary when you think about it, starting to sound a little like the Soviets making sure the Red Square was pure and using the KGB to throw people in jail for the rest of their lives without any kind of trial or charge.

He's a bad apple, amongst many in this country, but he gets his rights. Fair and simple.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 12:17 pm

Well when you consider he was about to be released 2 years ago and if that had happened, given his track record, I imagine we would have seen people die because of him by now.
So it's not hard to sympathize with the administrations desire to see him remain in custody.

I think I would pull every trick in the book to keep him locked up even if I knew the supreme court was going to let him out eventually. I'd try to appeal it through every lower court first, drag it out for years if possible using every delay and file every motion I could.

I can just hear it now in the 9/11 commission after Paddilla succesfully pulled off his plan:

"So, Attorney General Ashcroft, you knew Paddilla wanted to build a dirty bomb and kill americans, the FBI warned you, but you just let him go didn't you?!?!"

These are certainly trying times our government faces.

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 12:46 pm

Yeah Will, that's fine and dandy, but you're also supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. What if the government got it all wrong? They are not perfect, as can be seen from the current situation. You're supposed to have the right to a fair and speedy trial, so the question remains...how long should the government be able to hold you without charges? Police stations can't hold you for more than 24 hours before charging you, why can the administration say for eternity?

I don't like Padilla, I'm glad they caught him. But you can't say he doesn't deserve his rights, because he still does. No matter how much you hate him, he gets them too. Innocent until proven guilty.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:01 pm

The big problem here are the sources that the govt. has that point Padilla out as a bad man. To go to court and expose these sources may mean the end of said sources. Perhaps the best course is to have Padilla have a "accident".

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:19 pm

I agree with Will completely on this one.

bash · Post by **bash** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:29 pm

Z, you've already made the assumption that Padilla has rights. At the moment, he doesn't, according to the US Constitution. If you are designated an enemy combatant of the US, you lose your right to habeas corpus because there is no such thing as *unlawful restraint* as it pertains to prisoners of war. Poof! The current case in front of the SC is to decide if the Executive Branch retains the Constituional authority to designate even American citizens as enemy combatants. I, for one, would consider colluding with the enemy to perpetrate terrorism on US soil as sufficient reason. American citizenship is not God-given, nor are your rights inalienable if you fight to imperil the foundations that granted those rights to you in the first place.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:24 pm

Too bad we cant simply declare him a trator and have him put to death immedately.

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:21 pm

To be convicted of treason you need what, two witnesses or a confession in open court, right?

Charge him with something, anything, or you have to let him go and take your chances with your surveylance on him. Its that simple. That goes for everyone stuck in Guantanamo Bay, too.

Those rights were put into the constitution fora reason. For the administration to just circumvent them illegally like this IS treason to the ideals that are supposed to make up the framework of our country.

You wanna change those requirements? Ok, get the required majorities in the the House and Senate, and get the required number of State Legislatures to sign off on it.

The way the administration is handling things is reminiscent ofa cross between 1984, the KGB, and the future depicted in "Minority Report" where no one actually killed anyone, but they were all convicted of murder anyway.

That said, the administration could probably find plenty of LEGAL ways to detain him. As has been suggested, just going through the legal system's setup of motions and appeals can take a very long time. This would not be as safe as holding them indefinatly, but it would be legal. The people in Minortiy report were all wrongly convicted of Murder, but I'm sure charges of Atempted Murder, or Conspiricy to Commit Murder would fit well enough too.

Kyouryuu · Post by **Kyouryuu** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:44 pm

Vader wrote:the future depicted in "Minority Report" where no one actually killed anyone, but they were all convicted of murder anyway.

I think you missed the point of Minority Report. The Precog system worked for the most part. The issue in Minority Report was that the system was prone to failure (or uncertainty, at least) when the Precogs didn't agree, and a certain high-ranking official didn't want this aspect to be known.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:52 pm

They weren't all "wrongly" convicted of murder. The system was almost 100% accurate. Nothings perfect though. Besides, its just a movie and no, our gov isn't acting like 1984 and the KGB. Trust me, you'd have a LOT more to complain about if they were and you wouldn't have the ability to complain about it on the DBB or with anyone else for that matter.

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:10 am

Oh wow, I really didn't expect you people to be so incredibly callous of the Constitution. Why is he an enemy combatant? What proof has the government given us other than their word? What if they walked into your house and put you in a navy brig and told everyone you were a bad person and they threw away the key without even the slightest hint of a trial or charges? Bash, the rights of American citizenship are inherent, they cannot take them away. They give serial rapists, child molesters, people that kill their kids all the same rights that you get even if you only steal a pack of gum. If you people are willing to throw that away so quick, in the words of Scalia "we are in more trouble than I thought"....