Unbeatable?

[Sergeant Thorne]

Why is abortion always a key issue... ? It's so boring.
There are plenty of other reasons to vote for someone that are more important.

It would have been pretty important if your mother had aborted you. You talk like a fool. Life is important.

Woah. That's really deep. I never thought about it that way before. Abortion is the most important issue ever. If I was aborted I would be saying right now, "Ohhh!! I wish they didn't abort me! Grrrr!" From now on I will vote republican! You certainly made me take a good look at myself. /talk(fool)

I think it only stands to reason that if any of us had been aborted we wouldn't be here, at best, never mind the damage done to the mother, the family, or the society that condones such an immoral and absolutely irresponsible act (usually following on the heels of another irresponsible act). In all seriousness, you really ought to wise up and take the matter seriously. And don't be an ass and take advantage of the fact that I'm being serious and up-front here, because if I were so inclined I could give you ★■◆● and play forum games with the best of them, and if you have any decency you could at least have some respect for that.

I'm talking about the possibility of your life having never been. Doesn't that mean anything to you? (★■◆● political parties for a second)

That's a major reason why I will never support the Democratic party, or any other group trying to push that agenda. It is absolutely unconscionable, and I take it very seriously.

A "woman's choice" nothing! She already made a choice, that's why she's carrying a baby. In a civilized, responsible society (and I don't want to live in any other), it's too late to go back. And don't give me the 'what about rape victims' bull****. It plainly isn't about rape victims, or it would be confined to that arena.

[Top Gun]

he's a puppet.

...seriously, what the hell has happened to this place?

.... I'd expect the DBB E&C folder to be able to hold higher standards

... said the guy who opened the thread by calling Palin

dumb as a sack of bricks.

... and then who, when called on it, tried to justify the comment as something OTHER than mindless trolling.

Hold yourself to some higher standards next time. Don't drag threads off into the gutter and then complain that you're getting wet.

Looking back at how this unfolded, I'll admit that I shouldn't have made that statement by itself without the qualifiers that I only included later on. But I wasn't attempting to make a drive-by troll there...I honestly believe that the image Palin presents to the world, the image that has been pretty much globally mocked, is that of someone who doesn't have much going on upstairs, or at least someone who doesn't realize how profoundly stupid she sounds on a regular basis. And I also believe that the contrast in the images of Palin and Obama, no matter what one may think of their respective views or policies, pretty much speaks for itself. But you're right, I shouldn't be the pot calling the kettle black like that, no matter how steamed I've become from having to slog through several threads at once.

That aside, I think what you posted is a great assessment of the fundamental weaknesses inherent those candidates. I would honestly love to be able to unequivocally support a Republican candidate whom I felt had a legitimate plan for reform in certain areas, but the party has shown me no evidence that they have the ability to do so right now. And touting someone like Palin or Huckabee as a legitimate candidate prospect would confirm that more clearly than anything else could.

[Will Robinson]

...

You accuse me of implying that my opinion was the only one that was "allowed," which I didn't. I answer you, providing the evidence I based my opinion on and asking you and/or woodchip where your corresponding evidence is.

Your "evidence" is pretty damn weak. Let's see, you start with typical DNC spin: This is the woman who declared herself knowledgeable about international affairs because she could "see Russia from Alaska."

I wonder if you believe that is what took place or you are that dishonest?!?
Where do you get your information from? Bill Mahr? So I gave your rant the respect it deserved and nothing more....

You then respond to CUDA as if I hadn't responded to him first. I don't know what I'm supposed to see, but it sure looks like you don't want to talk to me here.

I responded to Cuda because he addressed me directly....so I addressed him directly...
If you ask me a question or quote me I'll know you meant to direct your comment to me and respond, if you quote someone else don't assume I'll know you really want me to respond to it. It really isn't that hard.

[Top Gun]

...

You accuse me of implying that my opinion was the only one that was "allowed," which I didn't. I answer you, providing the evidence I based my opinion on and asking you and/or woodchip where your corresponding evidence is.

Your "evidence" is pretty damn weak. Let's see, you start with typical DNC spin: This is the woman who declared herself knowledgeable about international affairs because she could "see Russia from Alaska."

I wonder if you believe that is what took place or you are that dishonest?!?
Where do you get your information from? Bill Mahr? So I gave your rant the respect it deserved and nothing more....

Honestly, I don't watch political-commentary shows from any part of the spectrum. All I know is that that quote was widely publicized, and I feel like it was a profoundly silly statement to make no matter what context it was delivered in. I don't view being the governor of Alaska as lending someone particularly-strong foreign relations experience, especially in the context of Russia; if anything, she would have been far better off citing Canada, given their lengthy shared border and presumably high level of commerce. I will give you the fact that Palin's public persona may not be truly representative of her, but that same persona is all the public really has to go by, and it's engendered absolutely no confidence in me that she would be able to handle complex international situations.

You then respond to CUDA as if I hadn't responded to him first. I don't know what I'm supposed to see, but it sure looks like you don't want to talk to me here.

I responded to Cuda because he addressed me directly....so I addressed him directly...
If you ask me a question or quote me I'll know you meant to direct your comment to me and respond, if you quote someone else don't assume I'll know you really want me to respond to it. It really isn't that hard.

I didn't expect you to respond to what I said to Cuda, but it seemed your post was written like I was standing ten feet away from you and you were pretending like I wasn't even in the same room, to use a real-world analogy. It just sounded a bit strange to me.

Look, I'm sorry I came across as so snappish. I just started being active here again after a long time off, and I almost immediately found myself sucked into the sorts of discussions that I didn't want to be involved with in the first place. I shouldn't be letting myself get pissed-off to the point where I'm doing the exact same things I'm accusing other people of doing, and I shouldn't expect anyone to take me seriously when I do that.

[Gooberman]

Unfortunately, the Republicans don't seem to have a lot of good options coming up. Huckabee is the embodiment of the scary theocratic wing of the Republican party.

Also, after the recent shooting, Huckabee couldn't survive a primary. He is done.

It wouldn't surprise me if Ron Paul made a strong showing. People know his name, and more and more both sides are becomming fed up with their own side.

[CORD]

Personally, I don't think Romney will stand a chance to represent the GOP. The \"emperor's new clothes\" being he pushed through the healthcare mandate in Massachusetts while he was governor, which is now the model in which Obama uses for his healthcare reform. It seems odd that as a REPUBLICAN, he hasn't said word one against the healthcare reform bill. HMMM, why would that be? Me wonders?? Now I'm a citizen of Massachusetts so I have first hand experience of what Romney's \"healthcare mandate\" can do to someone.

[Kilarin]

The man is wrong in a great many areas, and for all of his 'intelligence' how smart can he be if he's flying blind (at best), and just happening to be taking this country in a very bad direction? I'm getting tired of hearing how smart he is. What good is it if it doesn't pay dividends where it counts?

There is an important difference between intelligence and wisdom. I know some incredibly intelligent people, folks with doctorate degrees who can outthink me on a vast array of topics. It's just silly to not recognize and acknowledge that these people are SMART. Much smarter than me. (of course, my 11 year old keeps beating me at chess, so being "smarter than me" isn't that tough of a category to get into)

Smart does NOT mean wise. Smart people can make some of the most unwise decisions you've ever seen. And the guy who can understand quantum mechanics or the woman who designs CPU's for intel, or the guy who knows Beowulf by memory, might ALL be less wise than the old grandma who never got past eight grade in her official education, but understand how to prioritize the details of life, how to handle money, how to run a family, or, perhaps especially, right and wrong.

Smart is good. Smart isn't everything. And Smart people can make some TERRIBLE decisions.

[woodchip]

Much of the Christian world sees Mormonism as the 19th century equivalent to Scientology -- a religion based on a clearly fictional book written for the personal profit/power of its founder. This puts Romney in a tough spot. On the one hand, he's got great conservative credentials. On the other hand, his religious beliefs are as crazy to me as Sarah Palin's religious beliefs are to Bettina.

JFK had similar issues being a Catholic. Didn't seem to affect his job performance tho.

She's been throwing red meat to the crazy wing of the party.

Are you saying the Tea Party movement is a bunch of crazies? Last I heard, Dems and independants are involved.

IMO, a Palin-Romney ticket would be a horrible choice for the Republican party. Palin will scare off moderates and Romney will scare off evangelicals.

Well that will be determined in the primaries. If they were to win the primaries the the voters will focus on Romney's business credentials (more so if the economy stays lake warm or worse). Palin will cement the conservative base like no one else can.

I wish we could convince Petraeus to run. Get him a nice, sane, libertarian-leaning VP candidate and run on a reform-based, small-but-competent-government platform.

Petraeus is interesting but has repeatedly stated he would not seek the presidency.

[Will Robinson]

.. All I know is that that quote was widely publicized, and I feel like it was a profoundly silly statement to make no matter what context it was delivered in.

The problem is the context in which you accepted it as a "quote" was not even close to the context in which she said it! Even the mainstream media quotes Palin as saying "I can see Russia from my backyard" when it was Tina Fey on Saturday Night Live who said that in a parody of the Governor. So don't feel bad.

I don't view being the governor of Alaska as lending someone particularly-strong foreign relations experience, especially in the context of Russia; if anything, she would have been far better off citing Canada, given their lengthy shared border and presumably high level of commerce...

If I recall correctly Palin first responded to the question of her lack of international experience as a Governor by saying that it is true that governors are for the most part focused on domestic issues but in her case, due to Alaska having oil field treaty's and ongoing disputes over oil field boundries with Russia she may have a bit more experience than a land locked Governor.

She is no law professor like Obama but you know what, the other day Obama was asked about a baseball team he claimed to be a longtime fan of and when asked to name any player on the team he couldn't and gave some weak excuse about growing up in Hawaii... So, yea, he knows just what to say and says it really well, but does he mean it or even care about it beyond knowing it's what you want to hear him say? And when you catch him without his $300,000 a day teleprompter crew he sounds an awful lot like Palin...only she only needs a sharpie and her sense of humor and I bet she really is a hockey mom and just because the actor ridiculing a downs syndrome baby has the disease herself doesn't mean a downs syndrome mom can't find the bit offensive....

[dissent]

I wish we could convince Petraeus to run. Get him a nice, sane, libertarian-leaning VP candidate and run on a reform-based, small-but-competent-government platform.

I don't know who would be the best candidate. But I'm all for the direction of that platform. If they try to run on a rabid populist platform, then I just don't know - we already have that in the White House.

This is the woman who declared herself knowledgeable about international affairs because she could "see Russia from Alaska."

hmm. Is that an accurate characterization to be taken from the interview with Charles Gibson. Read for yourself and see.

Now, I'm no Palin hyperpartisan. I just wish they'd put Obama's views under the same withering glare.

[Kilarin]

Would you vote for a Scientologist? Or would you say "gee, someone who falls for that crap probably doesn't have the intellectual chops to be president"?

Much of the Christian world sees Mormonism as the 19th century equivalent to Scientology -- a religion based on a clearly fictional book written for the personal profit/power of its founder.

You certainly have a valid point here. But I would draw a sharp line of difference between Mormonism and Scientology. Scientology is a dangerous, criminal organization. Modern Mormonism just has silly beliefs. But then, I consider the beliefs of many mainstream Christian churches to be a bit silly, so perhaps I'm a poor judge.

Mormons are generally nice people. Scientologists SCARE me.

[VonVulcan]

Palin is the reason I didn't vote for McCain.

Palin is the reason I voted for McCain. Otherwise I would of voted for Hillary but alas, Obama got the Dem, spot.

X2 on Palin, nada for Hilary.

[*SilverFJ]

BALEETED

- Lothar

[CUDA]

Well then, CUDA, care to explain it to me?

Here ya go try to keep up

dumb as a sack of bricks.

Yeah, what did bricks ever do to you?

(CUDA: You <> you're <> your. Try to keep up.)

Didn't learn anything from the last thread did you?

[Isaac]

Didn't learn anything from the last thread did you?

That YOU'RE not always at YOUR best, I believe.

[Isaac]

I think it only stands to reason that if any of us had been aborted we wouldn't be here,

This is true.

at best, never mind the damage done to the mother, the family, or the society that condones such an immoral and absolutely irresponsible act (usually following on the heels of another irresponsible act).

It also goes the other way, when kids grow up in bad environments, but whatever. It doesn't matter either way; it's the same to me.

In all seriousness, you really ought to wise up

I will wise up...

and take the matter seriously.

... and be more serious about something my morals and sociopathic behavior don't allow me to understand.

And don't be an ass and take advantage of the fact that I'm being serious and up-front here,

I try not to be, but it can be hard to understand why something makes another person mad.

because if I were so inclined I could give you ***** and play forum games with the best of them,

You seem to respond very well if I do act immature. I don't understand your logic; maybe you're just smarter than me.

and if you have any decency you could at least have some respect for that.

I have a profound interest in how your brain works. That is just like respect, but better.

I'm talking about the possibility of your life having never been. Doesn't that mean anything to you?

Yes. It's very simple: You don't exist.

(**** political parties for a second)

Sweet!

That's a major reason why I will never support the Democratic party,

Yes, I know this.

or any other group trying to push that agenda. It is absolutely unconscionable, and I take it very seriously.

I know that. I think it's silly that it's a key issue, for you or anyone.

A "woman's choice" nothing! She already made a choice, that's why she's carrying a baby.

So what? It's her baby. I don't care what she does.

In a civilized, responsible society (and I don't want to live in any other), it's too late to go back.

...Too late to go back to our old American values.
Sure, but I do kind of enjoy some of our new values and don't want to trade back.

And don't give me the 'what about rape victims' bull****. It plainly isn't about rape victims, or it would be confined to that arena.

No. I'm trying to say, it's an unimportant issue, which shouldn't be the key reason you voted for guy "A" or "B". A smart guy like you should have picked up, I don't care what happens in the world of abortion. It's a boring issue where emotional moralistic people argue with other emotional moralistic people. And, when I see that this effects how 90% of how people vote, and how much news coverage it gets, it's clear something's wrong. But again, you can ban abortion forever and I won't shed a tear, because the issue does not matter.
It would be nice if one side could permanently win so the country can stop talking about it.

[Gooberman]

It would be nice if one side could permanently win so the country can stop talking about it.

1973.....people didn't stop talking about it.

[Isaac]

It would be nice if one side could permanently win so the country can stop talking about it.

1973.....people didn't stop talking about it.

It's because people won't stop messing with it!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial-Bi ... on_Ban_Act

Again, my problem is that people make it a deciding factor in choosing a candidate, which is silly.

[Top Gun]

BALEETED TOO
-Lothar again

I already apologized to Will and admitted that what I posted wasn't valid. I don't have any stake left in this discussion anymore. So after all that, you still find the need to personally drag me through the mud like that? You feel insults to my face are the right way to go?

[*SilverFJ]

You said the same thing about Sarah Palin. I don't even really care what your situation is, but it wasn't a very nice thing to say about a good woman. Wish you the best.

(But if I did care, I think insults to the face are the best way to execute them.)

[Lothar]

First off, admin note:

guys, chill. Let's have a bit more politeness and a bit less douchebaggery please.

I honestly believe that the image Palin presents to the world, the image that has been pretty much globally mocked, is that of someone who doesn't have much going on upstairs

Do you believe that's an accurate assessment of her intellect?

I think it's a fair assessment of her viability as a politician -- she's been painted (by herself and others) as kind of a ditz -- but I don't think it's a fair assessment of her actual level of intelligence. The "highly publicized" quotes and comments you discussed were typically misrepresented.

For example: in an interview with Gibson IIRC, he asked her about foreign policy experience. She talked about meeting with trade delegations from other countries, but admitted she hadn't met any actual heads of states. Then he changed the subject to how the US should respond to Russian aggression in Georgia, and she said that it's important to respond firmly and to provide international pressure but also to maintain good relations with Russia and not get into a Cold-war-type angry back-and-forth. During this part of the discussion, she mentioned that Russia is not some far-off place, but actually neighbors Alaska and is even visible from some parts of Alaska. That close proximity makes it even more important to keep up good relations.

It seems to me that the comment makes a ton of sense the way she initially presented it. But of course she sounds like a moron when the interview is edited, the quote is distorted, etc.

You said in another thread that it's sad the sort of falsehoods and distortions people let color their perceptions of reality (referring to the ACORN sting video.) I think it's fair to return that criticism.

I'm trying to say, it's an unimportant issue

I'm trying to say, I find your opinion unconvincing. I will hold to my previous belief that abortion is a tremendously important issue.

JFK had similar issues being a Catholic.

That was the suspicion, but it really didn't play out very strongly in the election.

I didn't live through it, but from what I've read, anti-Catholic sentiment had reduced quite a bit by that time (particularly compared to the 1920s.) Whereas the vast majority of evangelicals I've spoken to think Mormonism is wrong and crazy.

Again... would you vote for a Scientologist?

Are you saying the Tea Party movement is a bunch of crazies?

I'm saying there are crazies, both in and out of the Tea Party movement, that Palin has been giving a lot of ammunition to.

When it comes down to it, the problem with a Palin-Romney ticket is fundamentally this: the people Palin most strongly resonates with are also the people most scared of Romney. The people Romney most strongly resonates with are also the people most scared of Palin. IMO, pairing the two will drive off as many people as it'd pull in.

[*SilverFJ]

When it comes down to it, the problem with a Palin-Romney ticket is fundamentally this: the people Palin most strongly resonates with are also the people most scared of Romney. The people Romney most strongly resonates with are also the people most scared of Palin. IMO, pairing the two will drive off as many people as it'd pull in.

I couldn't agree more. I'd love to see the conservative movement sling forward and regain political power, but Palin and Romney together is a combination I'm not too keen on.

And douchebaggery runs rampant. Fit FJ with a halter.

[Gooberman]

If my entire sphere of scientology encompassed more than John Travolta, Kirstie Alley, and Tom Cruise, then I might. But as it is most likely I would not, however I think the initial assumption, that others view it like scientology, is unfair.

I know people who have left the Mormon church, it is an incredibly difficult thing to do. It is very hard on your parents/family if they don't also leave, and I don't think it's something that someone with a strong since of loyalty and commitment to family would do, even if they didn't believe.

I will fault the guy for other things, but not his religion.

[Lothar]

I think the initial assumption, that others view it like scientology, is unfair.

Depends on which "others" you're talking about. I'm specifically referring to Evangelicals, who in my experience view Mormonism as "way out there".

I know people who have left the Mormon church, it is an incredibly difficult thing to do.

I'm well aware of that. My father-in-law is pastor of a church made up of mostly ex-Mormons in Brigham City, Utah. It's often a very difficult transition, and one I wouldn't wish on anyone. I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to go through it without good reason.

Still, I think being Mormon will hurt Romney, particularly in the primaries -- especially among Palin supporters.

[LEON]

PJTV on Sarah Palin haters.

[VonVulcan]

He pretty much nails it.

[Heretic]

Well said.

[CUDA]

nails it with a Sledge Hammer

[*SilverFJ]

Nailed this with a post-pounder.
He jerks his head around too much though.

[CUDA]

I cannote believe that our current President and S.O.S. follow this man's teachings

\"Obama learned his lesson well. I am proud to see that my father's model for organizing is being applied successfully beyond local community organizing to affect the Democratic campaign in 2008. It is a fine tribute to Saul Alinsky as we approach his 100th birthday.\" --Letter from L. DAVID ALINSKY, son of Neo-Marxist Saul Alinsky

Saul Alinsky's rules for Radicals

here is the dedication for his book

“Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history... the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom — Lucifer.”

the man dedicates his book to Satan?!?!?!?!?!?!

1. The Purpose

In this book we are concerned with how to create mass organizations to seize power and give it to the people; to realize the democratic dream of equality, justice, peace.... \"Better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.' This means revolution.\" p.3

\"Radicals must be resilient, adaptable to shifting political circumstances, and sensitive enough to the process of action and reaction to avoid being trapped by their own tactics and forced to travel a road not of their choosing.\" p.6

\"A Marxist begins with his prime truth that all evils are caused by the exploitation of the proletariat by the capitalists. From this he logically proceeds to the revolution to end capitalism, then into the third stage of reorganization into a new social order of the dictatorship of the proletariat, and finally the last stage -- the political paradise of communism.\" p.10

\"An organizer working in and for an open society is in an ideological dilemma to begin with, he does not have a fixed truth -- truth to him is relative and changing; everything to him is relative and changing.... To the extent that he is free from the shackles of dogma, he can respond to the realities of the widely different situations....\" pp.10-11

2. Of Means and Ends [Forget moral or ethical considerations]

\"The end is what you want, the means is how you get it. Whenever we think about social change, the question of means and ends arises. The man of action views the issue of means and ends in pragmatic and strategic terms. He has no other problem; he thinks only of his actual resources and the possibilities of various choices of action. He asks of ends only whether they are achievable and worth the cost; of means, only whether they will work. ... The real arena is corrupt and bloody.\" p.24

\"The means-and-ends moralists, constantly obsessed with the ethics of the means used by the Have-Nots against the Haves, should search themselves as to their real political position. In fact, they are passive — but real — allies of the Haves…. The most unethical of all means is the non-use of any means... The standards of judgment must be rooted in the whys and wherefores of life as it is lived, the world as it is, not our wished-for fantasy of the world as it should be....\" pp.25-26

\"The third rule of ethics of means and ends is that in war the end justifies almost any means....\" p.29

\"The seventh rule... is that generally success or failure is a mighty determinant of ethics....\" p.34

\"The tenth rule... is you do what you can with what you have and clothe it with moral garments.... It involves sifting the multiple factors which combine in creating the circumstances at any given time... Who, and how many will support the action?... If weapons are needed, then are appropriate d weapons available? Availability of means determines whether you will be underground or above ground; whether you will move quickly or slowly...\" p.36

http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communism/alinsky.htm

[Isaac]

I cannote believe that

wow

[CUDA]

I cannote believe that

wow

yes it's obvious that you have a man crush on me. since there are many gramatical and spelling errors on this forum everyday and you chose only to point out mine. well I hate to break it to you. but

1. I'm much too old for you.
2. I have no need for another child in my life.
3. I don't swing for the whole Adam and Steve thing

so go run along and play with the other children before your mom calls you in for bedtime

[*SilverFJ]

haha

I'm still chuckling over \"discovered his penis and can't help playing with it\".

[Isaac]

haha

I'm still chuckling over "discovered his penis and can't help playing with it".

Hey, practice makes perfect!

@CUDA I CAN'T QUIT YOU, BABY!

[Gooberman]

Still, I think being Mormon will hurt Romney, particularly in the primaries -- especially among Palin supporters.

No argument from me. He is one of the few that I think has a good chance at beating Obama if he could get to the national stage, however.

I cannote believe that our current President and S.O.S. follow this man's teachings

And I can't believe you buy into that.

PJTV on Sarah Palin haters.

I've never seen so much stupid compacted into one clip. "They're democrats, they have no morals!" Yes, not wanting to see people electrocuted or drugged to death, wanting to protect the environment, not wanting to go to war where hundreds of thousands will die, wanting the poor to have health care, wanting better schools in poorer communities, wanting to allow two people who love eachother to get married, etc. etc. Re: the term "bleeding heart liberals" in general.

[Isaac]

edit: fudge it...

[Spidey]

No Goob, the guy wasn’t referring to liberal values*, he was referring to Democrats. (note the list)

Akin to the way I will defend conservative values, but I won’t defend Republicans.

You guys call yourselves the “smart ones” but you keep missing the subtle points.

* They can be debated too, but they weren’t his point.

[Bet51987]

.

[flip]

Why can't you dumbasses just be Americans? It's all your fault you bunch of double minded duplicate bitches.

EDIT:::: A country divided against itself cannot stand. \"Argue now bitches\"

[Gooberman]

No Goob, the guy wasn’t referring to liberal values*, he was referring to Democrats. (note the list)

If that was his point, then I don't think he presented it well at all.

He said, \"When a republican has an ethics scandal it's hypocrisy and double standards, but when a Clinton, Pelosi, etc. etc., no one bats an eye, why? because of course their immoral, their democrats!\"

This implies that being a democrat, makes one immoral. The politicians were listed first, and then placed in the (immoral) democratic category. So what makes one a democrat?

To be a Democrat, one should believe in the above listed values, (and), believe in political parties and that the politicians actually represent those values.

Since republicans also believe in political parties, and that their leaders represent those values, the immorality must be due to the values.

In fact, in modern day politics, I would say that Democrats do a better job of advancing and staying loyal to a more liberal philosophy, then republicans do of advancing and staying loyal to a conservative one. (At least for fiscal conservatism, which is all but dead).