The Arizona immigration law and ....

[dissent]

... the top 10 dumbest things said about it.
imho, only the unhinged and the true demagogues (and their lemmings) are that bent out of shape by the passage of the AZ statute.

Apparently there are a lot of such people. Or at least they are especially good at attracting news cameras.

[Spidey]

Lol, what a big crock of red herrings, how are you supposed to find illegals…if you can’t look for them?

Oh wait…let the employers do the dirty work, when they have to check a persons “papers” before they hire them.

No one seems to have a problem with making “some” people do all of the dirty work.

[Isaac]

If states can't experiment with laws we can only guess what their effect might be. I say give it a chance and it might not be as bad as everyone thinks. Until the Mexico goes through a serious transition, possibly towards a scarier authoritarian-like government, leaning on my race could have a positive effect. But, we won't have any clue unless we try.

-sure I'm going to get pulled over for this, if Texas does adopt its own version, but so will roughly half the state.

[Cuda68]

The Feds have not done anything in 30 years or more, so why not the state?

[TechPro]

The Feds have not done anything in 30 years or more, so why not the state?

Yes, that was exactly the point. Arizona took the matter into their own hands because the Fed isn't/hasn't/wasn't/doesn't. Oy, not very grammatically correct.

[AlphaDoG]

The Feds have not done anything in 30 years or more, so why not the state?

Yes, that was exactly the point. Arizona took the matter into their own hands because the Fed isn't/hasn't/wasn't/doesn't. Oy, not very grammatically correct.

The feds haven't done anything because it behooves them to have people NOT of this land voting for THEM.

As it stands an illegal can vote here as many times as they like, where I as a citizen am restricted to voting in my jurisdiction.

Doubt me? Research it!

[TechPro]

That would be one of the reasons.

[Isaac]

The feds haven't done anything because it behooves them to have people NOT of this land voting for THEM.

They wish... Out of the one hundred and fifty thousand legal Mexicans-Americans in my city only about two thousand vote. Even if they have the option, Mexicans don't vote because they don't care.

[Gooberman]

What really got me was Mexico is now urging its citizens not to visit Arizona for fear that they may be harrased.

I mean, you're really going to punish a group of people who don't want you there...by not comming?

That'll teach'em.

[dissent]

some George Will

[Isaac]

What really got me was Mexico is now urging its citizens not to visit Arizona for fear that they may be harrased.

Imagine if all Mexicans felt this way about our entire country. What would happen to Mexico with all their most proactive people sitting in Mexico and too afraid to go across to get work who are getting more angry every day?

It's not the USA that should be worried about this change; it's Mexico.

[Firewheel]

The outrage and blatant falsehoods concerning this law are simply appalling. It is perfectly reasonable for Arizona to actually enforce federal law, and I hope other states will follow suit.

[Heretic]

Now the U.N. is criticizing the Arizona law.

http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/n ... nalaw.html

[snoopy]

As I understand it, this is what the law says:

If you pull someone over, and they can't produce a drivers license, one of the things that you should do is check with the feds about the person's immigration status.

Doesn't it make sense that if someone's driving without a drivers license that something fishy is going on the bears further investigation?

[Spidey]

A counter to what the UN has said might be…that the US propose a “worldwide equal immigration quota” and let them chew on that.

[Gooberman]

I think the frustration comes from the clearly mixed signals from that State. Mexicans are tempted, and encouraged by corportations to come over the boarder and work for cheap. It isn't just the no-name corporations either.

On one hand, Americans tell them \"come, your life will be better, you will make more money...\"

...and on the other, (different) Americans say \"if we catch you here you will be deported.\"

It is a game of entrapment. They arn't breaking into the banks to steal the money, they are breaking into the banks to mop the floors. You can at least see why they would be frustrated.

Arizona has had sort of a \"don't ask, don't tell,\" compromise with the illegal workers since longer then I've been alive. And now people are upset that they are asking.

I'm not saying the law is a bad thing, but it continues to ignore many of the root causes. And punishes one side of these illegal contracts, the side that can't vote, alot more then the other.

The fair thing would be to deport both the illegal alien and the guy who hired him -- citizen or not.

[snoopy]

The fair thing would be to deport both the illegal alien and the guy who hired him -- citizen or not.

I agree with the sentiment. It's just like illegal drugs; if you took away the market, it wouldn't be an issue.

There is a workforce issue, though, that's related. I think that enforcement should be tightly & strictly performed at the employer level. In order to accomplish that and avoid hosing up the economy for lack of people willing to do the "menial" tasks, you'd have to grant a bunch of current illegals citizenship/work permits, which sounds a lot like rewarding them for breaking the law. I used to work for a golf course, and my boss employed a number of illegals. I questioned him about it one time: I said I had a problem with illegals getting jobs that unemployed citizens could have had. His response was that the unemployed citizens weren't willing to do the job, so he was stuck with either illegals, or nobody.

My take on it is that temporary work permits should be a lot more accessible, with some strings attached related to the person working toward citizenship as the tenure becomes extended and/or repeated. I'm okay with people immigrating to make a better life for themselves here. I'm not so okay with people coming here to work so they can send as much as possible down south to make a better life for themselves there. I'm all about encouraging people to spend the money that they make here in the US here in the US. Bring your family and move here; don't just endlessly come up here to work while leaving your family down there.

[Lothar]

On one hand, Americans tell them "come, your life will be better, you will make more money..."

...and on the other, (different) Americans say "if we catch you here you will be deported."

Yep. That's exactly the problem. We've built a system that strongly encourages people to come to this country, but doesn't provide the legal means to do so on the same scale.

There are tons of employers willing to pay them more than they could make doing the same work in Mexico. Many of those employers actually prefer illegals so they can pay less than minimum wage (which still turns out to be good money in comparison to wages just across the border.) The permits required to come do honest work are difficult to come by, and can be fairly expensive, so those who want to work for an honest wage sometimes cut corners. And because we've set up this system where so many people come here illegally, there's a lot of room for crime to attach itself -- lots of drug runners and such.

We need an immigration system that works. We need a system that gives work permits to people coming to work, with a minimum of hassle. We need a system that allows people who come here to work to be protected under the law, particularly from being exploited by their employers. And we need a system that lets us actually keep out the true criminals and the moochers.

[Heretic]

Funny how Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr has come out and made statements against the law how it maybe unconstitutional and will lead to racial profiling. Yet he admits he hasn't read the bill and got all his info on the bill from newspapers or what he has seen on television. IS this the correct way for the Attorney General of the United States to base his opinions of the law?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... riticized/

[Spidey]

Sure, as long as the press is on your side.

[Bet51987]

.

[Spidey]

More than there are now, if there was no welfare.

BTW, I do all of those things at home and at work.

[Heretic]

I wonder how many americans are willing to work cleaning toilets, urinals, showers and sinks, making beds, scrubbing floors, washing sheets, windows and doors, vacuuming and dusting. Just curious.

Bee

Would you do it? You're American so would you? Before you ask I have done all those things. So do you think that what is all the illegals are good for? Cleaning up Americans crap.

[AlphaDoG]

I lost my last job to a mexican, I lost a few jobs in the past to mexicans. Funny, but before I was replaced by a mexican I was doing the work they are doing now. Want to tell me an American WON'T do the work a mexican does?

[Bet51987]

.

[Will Robinson]

....

I worked for the park department as a volunteer during summer months as a swimming instructor and pool lifeguard. When that was done I helped clean toilets and urinals and hosed down walls for $0. I'm only asking questions here.

.... What I'd like to know is how many americans would work the jobs I mentioned for $7.50 an hour, 40 days a week. How about all day in the vineyards picking fruit for minimum wage? Again, just asking...

Bee

You keep using the phrase 'just asking' like some kind of shield. You aren't just asking some non-sequitur that has nothing to do with your perception of reality, you are implying something based on your own preconceived notion of a difference between Mexicans and Americans.

If there were no illegals willing to put up with below market wages and below minimum working conditions then the jobs would be filled by people who would establish the new minimum wage and conditions that the employers would have to pay. The cost to the consumers would go up slightly to cover the increased overhead and that total cost increase to the consumer would be less than the savings the consumer/taxpayers would receive by being relieved of the financial burden we currently pay for subsidizing the education, welfare, medical care, logistical and bureaucratic management, etc. etc. associated with the millions of illegals that come across our borders every year. Also, the increased cost of overhead would be directly turned into lower unemployment among our population and more cash flow staying here and not being sent to support people living in Mexico. The second largest source of income to Mexico is money earned illegally in America by Mexicans sending it home to support their family.

So I say your point that you don't want to take responsibility for making, no matter how sugar coated and politically correctly wrapped you delivered it, is way off base.

[Spidey]

What I'd like to know is how many americans would work the jobs I mentioned for $7.50 an hour, 40 days a week. How about all day in the vineyards picking fruit for minimum wage? Again, just asking...

Not many, and unfortunately for you, the only point you are making is mine…and some made by others here.

Your “great social programs*” have created this situation, so what would suggest as a solution?

*Minimum Wage & the Welfare System

[AlphaDoG]

Many won't. What I'd like to know is how many americans would work the jobs I mentioned for $7.50 an hour, 40 days a week. How about all day in the vineyards picking fruit for minimum wage? Again, just asking...

Bee

One thing is for certain, no one here is gonna work a 40 day week.

At this point I would pick up DoG doo for $7.50 an hour. Illinois, particularly, downstate Illinois, has a higher unemployment rate than the national average.

Illinois’s population increased by 11.7 percent between 1990 and 2000, and by 3.1 percent between 2000 and 2006, bringing Illinois’s total population to approximately 12.8 million.

Approximately 85 percent of the total population increase between 2000 and 2006 in Illinois was directly attributable to immigrants.

FAIR estimates the illegal alien population in 2005 at 609,000 which ranks 4th in the U.S. This number is 41 percent above the U.S. government estimate of 432,000 in 2000, and 214 percent above the 1990 estimate of 194,000.

According to an estimate of the Pew Hispanic Center, in 2005 there were an estimated 375,000 to 425,000 illegal aliens living in Illinois That ranked sixth among illegal alien populations in the United States in the PEW estimate.

FAIR estimates in 2004 that the taxpayers of Illinois spent $2001.6 million per year on illegal aliens and their children in public schools.

Granted this is some outdated data, however it speaks volumes to a LEGAL citizen. I can only assume this has significantly increased in the last decade.

[VonVulcan]

I wonder how many americans are willing to work cleaning toilets, urinals, showers and sinks, making beds, scrubbing floors, washing sheets, windows and doors, vacuuming and dusting. Just curious.

Bee

Kinda late to the party here but I know what I did when I was young and first entered the work force, I did all those things until I proved my worth to the company I worked for and was given the opportunity and training to do a more desirable job in the company. Then as I learned more I moved on to bigger and better things and made room for the next guy starting out. At 52 I can say I have never been unemployed for more then a couple weeks (once), Never drawn unemployment and never been on public assistance. So why can't the current crop of youngsters do the same? To many safety nets.

[Grendel]

Granted this is some outdated data, however it speaks volumes to a LEGAL citizen. I can only assume this has significantly increased in the last decade.

Nope.

[Bet51987]

.

[Will Robinson]

I did all those things until I proved my worth to the company I worked for and was given the opportunity and training to do a more desirable job in the company. Then as I learned more I moved on to bigger and better things and made room for the next guy starting out.

Thanks for the input. My question here is what happens when the owner of a hotel doesn't want any more than rest room cleaners and workers for the other jobs I mentioned. I don't know for sure, but I don't believe all companies move everyone up so my question remains.

Your question remains ambiguous. What is the significance if a hotel owner doesn't need anything but low level labor and doesn't promote those workers to management? Are you suggesting legal residents won't do the work? That would seem odd if you are since you yourself have done that work and so have I and numerous other people. If there is work that truly needs to be done and the people who used to be available to do it for $5 an hour are no longer around the wage will have to come up to meet the market....

You didn't address that scenario when I raised it before, I'm not sure you understand it or maybe you don't care about the way things would work out and only want to maintain a system that thrives off of illegal immigrants working in the shadows for less than minimum wage who are, by their situation, also exploited by drug runners trading access to the border and every other kind of scam that happens to people who are trying to stay out of the laws reach....

I've read "The New Deal" so I understand the reasoning behind some of those "Safety nets" which I admit are being abused today but at that time they were needed to help the poor...and there were plenty of them. This would be an interesting topic in itself but I don't think this forum is the place for it.

Bee

What about this forum makes it a bad place to have that discussion? Is it perhaps that you don't like it when people expect you to respond to a challenge to your position?

[Will Robinson]

I did all those things until I proved my worth to the company I worked for and was given the opportunity and training to do a more desirable job in the company. Then as I learned more I moved on to bigger and better things and made room for the next guy starting out.

Thanks for the input. My question here is what happens when the owner of a hotel doesn't want any more than rest room cleaners and workers for the other jobs I mentioned. I don't know for sure, but I don't believe all companies move everyone up so my question remains.

Your question remains ambiguous. What is the significance if a hotel owner doesn't need anything but low level labor and doesn't promote those workers to management? Are you suggesting legal residents won't do the work? That would seem odd if you are since you yourself have done that work and so have I and numerous other people. If there is work that truly needs to be done and the people who used to be available to do it for $5 an hour are no longer around the wage will have to come up to meet the market....

You didn't address that scenario when I raised it before, I'm not sure you understand it or maybe you don't care about the way things would work out and only want to maintain a system that thrives off of illegal immigrants working in the shadows for less than minimum wage who are, by their situation, also exploited by drug runners trading access to the border and every other kind of scam that happens to people who are trying to stay out of the laws reach....

I've read "The New Deal" so I understand the reasoning behind some of those "Safety nets" which I admit are being abused today but at that time they were needed to help the poor...and there were plenty of them. This would be an interesting topic in itself but I don't think this forum is the place for it.

Bee

What about this forum makes it a bad place to have that discussion? Is it perhaps that you don't like it when people expect you to respond to a challenge to your position?

[Sergeant Thorne]

but I don't believe all companies move everyone up so my question remains.

Good people will get ahead, because it's in everyone's interest to have good people doing what's most important in their company. There is a real dearth of good people in my local economy, and I have good reason to believe it's like that everywhere. Workers are a dime a dozen, but I'm convinced you can't find a really good person out of a hundred. Everyone as the opportunity to be that good person, and people who aren't will be subject to whatever winds blow their way (with liberals fighting for them). This recession is cutting the fat, and where people are losing ultimately it's because they're not up to the challenge. I've worked very hard, and I was literally like some kind of superman among the other employees just for doing my job to the best of my ability--I was focused, and tried my hardest, and it was difficult (there is an element of momentum, though), and sometimes it really went against what I might have wanted to do had I allowed myself to stoop and think about it in those terms. There were a whole list of things that I did and everyone else didn't do, or that I didn't do and most everyone else did--things that set me apart, but things that weren't particularly special or unique.

Anyone that accepts less than this as the reality of the world we must deal with is selling themselves short, and really ultimately retarding themselves. Life is really nice a lot of time, and in a lot of ways, but ultimately it's a struggle/battle, not a party. You struggle you grow, if you're lazy (there are a lot of ways to be lazy) you fall.

Excuses are a poison, and distort your perception of reality. If you really want to give yourself a boost, you yourself stop accepting excuses for your mistakes. This is one of the big things I have against the Liberal movement. They pretty much have an excuse for everything. In fact a lot of politicians are ready with anything to make you feel better about whatever you're doing that's hurting or impeding yourself or others. Powerful organizations have been formed for this very purpose.

I don't need any government working to get me a job, thanks to my parents integrity and effort. The people in our government need to actually do their job, instead of trying to shape the world according to the dictates of their foolish hearts, and do it with ability and integrity for a change, and the private sector would take care of itself!


More directly on the subject at hand, I think that illegal immigrants filling a gap in our society is a stupid argument, and it's an unfortunately naive person that buys into it. It's like arguing that a nail should be in a tree because it's filling the hole that it created. Why do you really want the nail there, you liar? In the absence of illegals our economy would adjust, and I believe it's readily perceivable that the adjustment would ultimately be a step in a positive direction. It doesn't take much imagination, just a willingness to look in that direction.

[Spidey]

The economy would have a hard time adjusting, because of some built in legal constraints. So in a way she is correct, but it’s one of those un-intended consequences of those “great social programs”. And I doubt very much any politician on any side of any spectrum has the stones to take on that fight.

[Jeff250]

We need an immigration system that works. We need a system that gives work permits to people coming to work, with a minimum of hassle. We need a system that allows people who come here to work to be protected under the law, particularly from being exploited by their employers. And we need a system that lets us actually keep out the true criminals and the moochers.

Exactly.

About the Arizona law, I'm always nervous about giving the police more power, since it means that bad cops will have even more power to do things like racially profile. I think that the police have enough reasons to justify stopping or questioning otherwise innocent people. But I'm willing to overlook this.

But more importantly, I think the law will just not be economically effective. I think that the law will cost much more money than it will bring back to our economy. Moreover, I don't think it will have any effect on violent crimes. Illegal immigration has been on the downturn anyways. I think the law is wasteful and not the kind of law that we should be enacting least of all now.

If you want to end drug cartel-related violence along the border, end the cause. How much of that violence is prohibition related? Over half of the Mexican drug cartel market is in marijuana. I think that it's time that our government stop lying to us about marijuana and begin treating it like drugs of equal or worse caliber, such as alcohol and tobacco, by legalizing, regulating, and taxing it.

[Sergeant Thorne]

Jeff, I wouldn't call you an idiot, but when the answer to illegal immigration is to smoke a joint I think my options are pretty limited.

[Heretic]

That is hilarious make weed legal bet you didn't know this about it then.

The Mexican Connection

In the early 1900s, the western states developed significant tensions regarding the influx of Mexican-Americans. The revolution in Mexico in 1910 spilled over the border, with General Pershing’s army clashing with bandit Pancho Villa. Later in that decade, bad feelings developed between the small farmer and the large farms that used cheaper Mexican labor. Then, the depression came and increased tensions, as jobs and welfare resources became scarce.

One of the “differences” seized upon during this time was the fact that many Mexicans smoked marijuana and had brought the plant with them, and it was through this that California apparently passed the first state marijuana law, outlawing “preparations of hemp, or loco weed.”

However, one of the first state laws outlawing marijuana may have been influenced, not just by Mexicans using the drug, but, oddly enough, because of Mormons using it. Mormons who traveled to Mexico in 1910 came back to Salt Lake City with marijuana. The church’s reaction to this may have contributed to the state’s marijuana law. (Note: the source for this speculation is from articles by Charles Whitebread, Professor of Law at USC Law School in a paper for the Virginia Law Review, and a speech to the California Judges Association (sourced below). Mormon blogger Ardis Parshall disputes this.)

Other states quickly followed suit with marijuana prohibition laws, including Wyoming (1915), Texas (1919), Iowa (1923), Nevada (1923), Oregon (1923), Washington (1923), Arkansas (1923), and Nebraska (1927). These laws tended to be specifically targeted against the Mexican-American population.

When Montana outlawed marijuana in 1927, the Butte Montana Standard reported a legislator’s comment: “When some beet field peon takes a few traces of this stuff… he thinks he has just been elected president of Mexico, so he starts out to execute all his political enemies.” In Texas, a senator said on the floor of the Senate: “All Mexicans are crazy, and this stuff [marijuana] is what makes them crazy.”

http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/why ... a-illegal/

[Spidey]

The 800 pound gorilla still remains…

How do you find illegal immigrants?

[CUDA]

lol Karma

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinio ... on=emailed

Hey, Rep. Moran, how do you say “karma” in Spanish?

Michael Moran of Brighton is a staunch supporter of the “sanctuary” approach to illegal immigration we have here in Massachusetts. He voted against the Perry amendment that would require applicants for state benefits to prove they’re here legally. Moran voted for subsidized college tuition for illegals, too.

It’s safe to say that no Massachusetts politician has done more to make illegal immigrants feel welcome. Illegal immigrants like 27-year-old Isaias Naranjo, who (ahem) “met” Moran on the streets of Brighton last week.

According to Fox 25, Naranjo was driving 60 mph when he slammed his car into Moran’s. Naranjo was also drunk, driving without a license and - in an only-in-Massachusetts twist - was wearing a “Mexican costume” at the time.

Now if Naranjo were just another Massachusetts taxpayer, he would be in some serious guacamole. But Fox reports that when police tried to explain the seriousness of his situation, he just laughed.

“Nothing is going to happen to me, man,” Naranjo told the cops. That’s because he was “going back to my home country, Mexico.”

Naranjo had gotten the Massachusetts message: It’s never illegal to be illegal here. In fact sometimes it’s pretty damn good.

It lets you take advantage of Department of State Police General Order INV-17 - put into place by the Patrick administration - declaring it “inappropriate for state police to inquire about, or investigate a non-citizen’s immigration status.” No matter how many times a drunken, unlicensed, hit-and-run driver like Naranjo shouts “Go screw, coppers, I’m going back to Mexico,” our staties - and municipal cops for that matter - are under orders not to notice.

And the guys giving those orders are Gov. Deval Patrick and Rep. Moran. So while I’m sorry Moran was involved in an accident, you gotta admit: It couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.

Do die-hard liberals like Patrick understand that criminal immigrants like this aren’t laughing with us, they’re laughing at us? That Democrats who feel like heroes for supporting benefits to illegals look like suckers to people like Naranjo and Aunt Zeituni who are gaming the system?

It’s embarrassing and getting worse. Even after the Moran case, a spokesperson for Patrick reiterated his support for the “I don’t want to know” approach to illegal immigration.

And if you think this drunk guy in the funny suit was laughing during his arrest, wait until he finds out that, according to Rep. Jeff Perry, Massachusetts judges aren’t allowed to consider his immigration status in setting bail. Which means he could be out on the streets and back in his “home country” by the weekend.

Perry wants to change that, a change almost certain to be opposed by Beacon Hill liberals.

Anyone remember the case of the 4-year-old boy grabbed at a public urinal at the Market Basket in Raynham? The guy who grabbed him was an illegal immigrant from Guatemala. The police released this child-groping perv to await trial and then were stunned when he didn’t show up for his court date.

He was back in Guatemala, of course.

Are we going to stay this stupid on purpose? Are we going to keep boycotting Arizona for enforcing immigration laws while we release illegals who crash our cars and grope our kids?

and my favorite line of the whole story

Are we going to stay this stupid on purpose?