The Party's Over

[Tunnelcat]

Oops, looks like cheap labor is going to get scarcer in China. But hey, they're 'Communists' after all, so they should have the workers rights ethics as part of their mantra. Ooooooooooooh, somehow I don't see the Chinese Government reacting to this development like good commies though.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... -communist

[Nightshade]

I'm sure by now all facades have dropped away to show what China really is- a tyrannical oligarchy that'll do anything for a buck. How Chinese communist party will reconcile being a \"workers' party\" with cracking down on the very same workers they were meant to support will be interesting.

[AlphaDoG]

LOL! Tianamen Square!

[Bet51987]

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[CUDA]

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[Will Robinson]

...a tyrannical oligarchy that'll do anything for a buck.

Something like Wall street, health insurance companies, oil companies, etc?

Bee

Bee the BIG difference is a company should look out for it's own interests and a representative government like ours should look out for citizens rights and general liberty.
It isn't the model of private companies being selfish that has us by the balls, they are supposed to be like that but they are supposed to hit the road block in Washington D.C. instead they found a private toll booth.
It is the politicians that sell out to those private entities instead of regulating them that is our problem....well, that and the fact that people like you think only half of the politicians are to blame so you blindly support the other half instead of raise your voice in opposition to both party's corruption of the core system itself.
As long as you and others like you on either side buy into the notion that, if not for the other party, your party would fix it all we will continue to be screwed.

I can't wait until you are on your own and you try to take a pocket full of that hope and change down to the bank and try to get a loan to start up a business....lol

If you want to make a difference then look into this and this. Fire the criminals in power and take the bulk of the corruption tools away from their replacements if you really want to fix it. If you want to just be a parrot for a pimp then by all means continue doing what you are doing because you do it well....

[Bet51987]

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[CUDA]

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. teach a man to fish and you feed him for a life time.

social programs do not work

[Tunnelcat]

Hmmmmmm. If I read my definition of an Oligarchy correctly, it looks like the U.S. is headed in that direction, if we aren't there already! Banks, Wall Street, Corporations and the wealthy are the ones who have the most access and control over our government's leaders and representatives right? Isn't that what an Oligarchy is, power resting in the hands of the few, usually by either wealth, royalty or family ties? The common people THINK they have a vote, but in reality, they DON'T.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy

Any why is Congress, ALL of the Republicans in lockstep by the way, blocking financial regulatory reform when lack of regulation brought us into this mess in the first place? Those who don't think financial regulations are necessary are from a different planet. And Bee, a few liberals don't like the regulatory package as it's written now either because they don't think it goes FAR ENOUGH! Obama's trying to triangulate things with this reform bill by watering it down a little in hopes the Republicans will go for it, but it ain't working to appease either side is it?

CUDA, if you want people to work, they need available jobs! But wait, we don't have as many jobs anymore because they're all in China (wait, not anymore), or Pakistan, or Vietnam, or Indonesia, or Mexico, or......... because labor is cheaper in those countries. No amount of tax incentives by the Feds or the States is going to create business opportunities in the U.S. that create long term employment because these companies eventually figure out that they can make stuff cheaper out of country. They start up some operation in the U.S., hire people, get successful, become profitable, figure out that they can make MORE profit (and pay less taxes to Uncle Sam) by outsourcing jobs to a cheaper labor country, so they move the whole shebang over to that country. THEY DON'T THINK OF THEIR EMPLOYEES AS IMPORTANT ASSETS!

Here's a company that doesn't allow unions, but puts it's workers first and considers them assets important to the company, and they got through this recession with no layoffs. The corporation with a moral ethic, so it is possible.

http://www.ethikospublication.com/html/ ... ctric.html

This country needs to have it's manufacturing capability returned or we're going to end up at the bottom of the world heap. Is it time for tariffs (oh, I know that one's going to rile a few free-market lovers here) again to level the playing field?

[Will Robinson]

...

Any why is Congress, ALL of the Republicans in lockstep by the way, blocking financial regulatory reform when lack of regulation brought us into this mess in the first place? Those who don't think financial regulations are necessary are from a different planet...

I've posted the following for you to see numerous times, you always ignore it for obvious reasons...
republicans trying to support regulation, democrats denying the regulators reports that regulation is needed

It's pretty clear that it was republicans supporting the regulators warnings and democrats trying to play the race card or just blatantly denying the regulators warnings. Well we found out later the hard way that the regulators were absolutely correct AND YET YOU AND BEE SHAMELESSLY IGNORE REALITY and continue to parrot the DNC talking points saying repubs don't want regulation and democrats do....
You are both completely pathetic on this issue.

The truth is like I told it: Both parties are in the pockets of big money and hearing people proclaim to know which party to pick is like listening to street hookers debate which pimp to trust with their retirement fund.

[Heretic]

Hmmmmmm. If I read my definition of an Oligarchy correctly, it looks like the U.S. is headed in that direction, if we aren't there already! Banks, Wall Street, Corporations and the wealthy are the ones who have the most access and control over our government's leaders and representatives right? Isn't that what an Oligarchy is, power resting in the hands of the few, usually by either wealth, royalty or family ties? The common people THINK they have a vote, but in reality, they DON'T.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy

May you should read about Despotism.

Despotism is a form of government by which a single entity rules with absolute and unlimited power, and may be expressed by an individual as an autocracy or through a group as an oligarchy.

[Spidey]

The only thing that will bring back manufacturing jobs to this country, is when hell freezes over and people in this country actually become willing to pay Americans to produce their products.

Everyone is taught that they have a right to cheap consumer goods…but, I beg you to tell me where that right comes from?

But, I’m sure you feel more comfortable blaming “evil corporations”.

[flip]

Whatever it is it's feeling more and more oppressive to me.

[AlphaDoG]

Reality vs Culture.

[Krom]

Video of Republicans pushing reform in 2004 (when they know it is safe because it won't pass anyway).

You can dig up videos and texts from just about any time and show some members of either party or independents pushing for reform, it is mostly irrelevant now except for showing how easily the parties switch sides. Both parties work off of each other in surprising ways really. Tunnelcat was talking about the Republicans TODAY who are in perfect lock step attempting to block everything the Democrats try. If the Republicans were so for regulation in 2004, why are they so against it now?

The way I see it, you are absolutely right about both parties being corrupt Will: Normally it wouldn't make sense that the entire Republican party can be in such perfect sync, the Democrats certainly aren't. However, it starts to make sense when you realize that neither the Democrats or the Republicans are the least bit interested in passing any strong reform so the Democrats are depending on the Republicans as an excuse to water it down or block it. Both parties show their corruption because they truly are two sides of the same coin, and a coin is the best way to describe it since it is all money that does the talking.

When the Republicans push for strong reforms, they do it only when they know the Democrats will be there to stop them so it won't cause any problem with their deep pocketed sponsors. And the Democrats are the same, both parties work together in amazing harmony all the time, the majority of the members probably don't even know they are being used by the party leadership that way.

[Will Robinson]

Video of Republicans pushing reform in 2004 (when they know it is safe because it won't pass anyway).

You can dig up videos and texts from just about any time and show some members of either party or independents pushing for reform, it is mostly irrelevant now except for showing how easily the parties switch sides. Both parties work off of each other in surprising ways really. Tunnelcat was talking about the Republicans TODAY who are in perfect lock step attempting to block everything the Democrats try. If the Republicans were so for regulation in 2004, why are they so against it now?

The way I see it, you are absolutely right about both parties being corrupt Will: Normally it wouldn't make sense that the entire Republican party can be in such perfect sync, the Democrats certainly aren't. However, it starts to make sense when you realize that neither the Democrats or the Republicans are the least bit interested in passing any strong reform so the Democrats are depending on the Republicans as an excuse to water it down or block it. Both parties show their corruption because they truly are two sides of the same coin, and a coin is the best way to describe it since it is all money that does the talking.

When the Republicans push for strong reforms, they do it only when they know the Democrats will be there to stop them so it won't cause any problem with their deep pocketed sponsors. And the Democrats are the same, both parties work together in amazing harmony all the time, the majority of the members probably don't even know they are being used by the party leadership that way.

Exactly correct and exactly why I point out TC and Bee's error in defaulting to support the democrats out of fear that republicans are somehow worse. They are the same at the core and why I don't recommend voting for either party. See the links for GOOOH and FairTax that I put in my response to Bee...despite her deflections those two efforts together would severely cripple the current one-party-disguised-as-two fiasco we have now.

I don't site the video as proof the repubs are good and dems are actually bad, I point to it to expose one of the big lies, one they are repeating too often. Pop culture is carrying the water for the lefties and has taught kids and imbeciles, by way of stereotype, that repubs are the same as evil corporations...you see it in TC's rantings all the time and Bee has that kool-aid dripping from her chin with every comment! They need to wake up and smell the corruption of the whole system that the "two parties" have taken over and exploited and recognize those politicians are depending on stupid and ignorant voters to keep control...

If anyone doubts me just go examine the thousands of pages of tax law, you will find billions of dollars of exemptions written by BOTH party's members basically buying votes and favors from the big money sources. Exemptions completely at odds with the citizens best interest and often even at odds with our very security as a nation! All as a way to extract a payoff for a party member. The problem isn't knowing which party is the good one....it is recognizing any party member is now a bad one! That is how far we have let it slip!

We desperately need a flush of the bowl because the pendulum swings farther and farther as more and more idiots show up to vote fueled by one party or the other's rhetoric instead of armed with knowledge. This time it's Obama shoving the weight to the left...next it will be some David Duke or Pat Buchanon swinging the focus to the right just as Obama was swept into power totally on the anyone but Bush sentiment there will be a anyone but Obama wave coming back the other way!
It is time to cut them all off at the knees and take the country back.

[snoopy]

Woo vote libertarian!

This is the second time very recently that I've seen something about China hitting a growth ceiling very soon. I believe it. The cheap labor couldn't last for forever. It will be interesting to see how the rest of the world has to adjust to China's growth slowing. I also wonder if India is next.

[Bet51987]

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[Will Robinson]

@Will... I won't argue the corruption in both parties argument but I will argue what I see in front of me. For example, the only person pushing for regulations to make Wall street accountable is Obama. ...

What you see in front of you?!? I'll fight off the urge to post a pic of a horse with blinders on...

What you see in front of you is who is posturing in front of that issue this week. (See Kroms post above if you want to understand how that works)

He's also the one who has his hand out under the table taking bribes from those he points at when he's trying to fool you into believing "he's the only one". He's the one who talked about taxing "cadillac insurance plans" until he actually got the job and then he gave the Union cadillac plan holders exemptions from the tax!! Why? He's the same one who gives cabinet positions to and takes financial policy advice from the very people who cost us billions by their falsifying the bookkeeping so they could personally pocket millions of dollars in bonus money they didn't earn or deserve when they ran the financial services into the ground completely ignoring the regulators warnings!!
Basically you are saying the crooked sheriff who supports and employs bank robbers is the only one talking about changing the rules regarding guarding banks and I'm supposed to take back my concerns and say 'Oh, yea Bee, you are right!'
I don't think so!!!

But anyway, I'll ask you again. If you want to throw out all the Republicans and Democrats who do you feel is vote-worthy enough to form a new government. You can't have an empty government so who is it?

Bee

You obviously didn't really read my post to you on this. I gave you two links. One is to GOOOH if you had read that you would see it isn't about repubs or dems and which one is better or even independants like you assumed. It's about electing new people who are selected by a process that puts focus on representative integrity, and even if only 10% of those candidates won it would be major news and the motive, the platform under those candidates, would be on the front burner for anyone cooking up a future campaign. The corrupt status quo would be cracked open and the two wounded party's would be scrambling to adopt as much of this new reformed platform as they could because they would be faced with extinction if they didn't in subsequent elections.
But you'll need to actually read the details of that program to understand the significance and consider it without trying to fit it into the pro-dem/anti-repub template that you usually use.

The second link was to The FairTax which if implemented it would take away almost every tool politicians use to steal from us and corrupt our electoral and representative systems of government. You won't find very many politicians who support it because it's the equivalent of taking a spoiled child of a rich family and making them get a real job. We could, however, force some of them to adopt it if their future depended on it and some of them would quit and their replacements would know coming in that the rules have changed.

You will need to read those sites and think with an open mind 'What will happen if we did this?' instead of try to find 'what do the dems say is wrong with doing this?'.
I don't know that you really care enough to do that, I hope one day soon that you and others will.

[Bet51987]

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[TechPro]

@Will... I won't argue the corruption in both parties argument but I will argue what I see in front of me. For example, the only person pushing for regulations to make Wall street accountable is Obama. ...

What you see in front of you?!? I'll fight off the urge to post a pic of a horse with blinders on...

Sorry, I gotta agree with Will on that sentiment.

[Isaac]

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. teach a man to fish and you feed him for a life time.

social programs do not work

Exactly, just like student grants... Those lazy fricken freeloaders.

[Will Robinson]

I wish you would stop asking me a question then answering it for me.
I can't vote for a link, give me a name who you feel is vote-worthy. Otherwise your just a tea partier.

Bee

You can't possibly be that stupid so why do you want to be such an ass?

I don't know what your definition of a 'tea partier' is but if I qualify for it simply because I offered an opinion and a link to where you could learn to understand the premise behind my opinion then they must be reasonable people so it's OK with me.
What do you think you qualify for by being so belligerent and closed minded as to demand others do your thinking for you? I mean besides a good little democrat robot....

[Will Robinson]

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. teach a man to fish and you feed him for a life time.

social programs do not work

Exactly, just like student grants... Those lazy fricken freeloaders.

Isaac, you do know that student loans are given so people can learn to "fish" and that a loan is not a gift, right?

[Heretic]

You don't have to pay back GRANTS they are handouts.

[Krom]

Build a man a fire and he will be warm for one night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

[CUDA]

I wish you would stop asking me a question then answering it for me.
I can't vote for a link, give me a name who you feel is vote-worthy. Otherwise your just a tea partier.

Bee

You can't possibly be that stupid so why do you want to be such an ass?

Will, you already know the answer.
Bee has proven time and time again to not be able to think for her self. she continually spouts the DNC party line talking points, and ONLY the DNC talking points. she constantly will ask you what you would do about something so she could find a DNC talking point to rag on you about it. but when you ask her what she would do she fails over and over and over to even attempt to answer you

[Isaac]

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. teach a man to fish and you feed him for a life time.

social programs do not work

Exactly, just like student grants... Those lazy fricken freeloaders.

Isaac, you do know that student loans are given so people can learn to "fish" and that a loan is not a gift, right?

I needed a smiley face with that, I guess, even if it's with obvious, over the top, sarcasm.

[CUDA]

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. teach a man to fish and you feed him for a life time.

social programs do not work

Exactly, just like student grants... Those lazy fricken freeloaders.

Isaac, you do know that student loans are given so people can learn to "fish" and that a loan is not a gift, right?

Will, I think Issac missed the key point here with his own comment. STUDENT = LEARNING
Teach a man to fish


edit: ya a smiley would have better portrayed what you were thinking. you posted while I was writing

[Isaac]

Amazing.


edit: if this doesn't pass for sarcasm nothing will.

[Will Robinson]

Amazing.


edit: if this doesn't pass for sarcasm nothing will.

I had guessed you were being sarcastic but it didn't work for me because, as Cuda pointed out, students are learning to fish as opposed to showing to college just for the free room and board....well, come to think of it, after having observed the last couple of generations of college students maybe I'm wrong there too like I was thinking "loan" when you said "grant"!

[Bet51987]

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[Spidey]

Nobody answers my questions…seems like these days the only way to get a response is to say something stupid, outrageous…or both.

[CUDA]

lack of civility that Cuda always uses whenever you're faced with a tough question.

first you dont ask tough questions. and when you have asked me a direct question I HAVE answered you, then you for some unkown reason when you get asked a direct question you either deflect or you seem to conveniently drop from posting.
second after sparing with you for 6 years now I've learned that the only thing you say is

Party of NO

Evil Corporate America

GOPSCOTUS

[Will Robinson]

You can't possibly be that stupid so why do you want to be such an ass?

BTW... I did look at those links, registered, and answered the questions for whatever good it did but you rather resort to the same lack of civility that Cuda always uses whenever you're faced with a tough question.

Don't worry, I won't ask you again to answer that question.

Bee

Really?!?

I can't vote for a link, give me a name who you feel is vote-worthy. Otherwise your just a tea partier.

You flaunt your petulance and then cry when people don't play along....boohooo.
If you read the details of GOOOH you wouldn't have asked who you should vote for and my point would have been clear....
So save the martyr act for your parents or boyfriend it doesn't work with me.

[Heretic]

[Gooberman]

Basically you are saying the crooked sheriff who supports and employs bank robbers is the only one talking about changing the rules regarding guarding banks and I'm supposed to take back my concerns and say 'Oh, yea Bee, you are right!'
I don't think so!!!

Bee asked a straight question and the way you guys are jumping on her is quite juvenile.

I argue, that anyone that gets to the national stage, did so by taking alot of money, from alot of people, who didn't give it out of the kindness of their heart.

They are all corrupt, that is low fruit on the political tree of knowledge. So answer her question. Why not at least get the social issues you do support out of your vote?

Who should one vote for? Someone who promises to "cut wasteful spending," or someone who will enforce "common sense policies?"

[Will Robinson]

..
Bee asked a straight question and the way you guys are jumping on her is quite juvenile.

I did answer her but the answer isn't a particular person and she claims to have read the material but that isn't likely or she would have learned that and wouldn't continue to ask that question...
The premise of GOOOH is numerous candidates are cultivated in your respective districts and they may be dems or repubs or independents with the common bond of being selected by the people for the people. It is the election of anyone on that platform that is the significant part.

Bee didn't care about the details she just wanted to dismiss me as a "TeaPartier".

Who should one vote for? Someone who promises to "cut wasteful spending," or someone who will enforce "common sense policies?"

You should vote for someone who isn't a major contributor to the larger problem we face in politics and Obama has proven to be every bit as much a leader of that pack as a Cheney or Bush or Rove or Limbaugh etc. etc.

[Tunnelcat]

The only thing that will bring back manufacturing jobs to this country, is when hell freezes over and people in this country actually become willing to pay Americans to produce their products.

Everyone is taught that they have a right to cheap consumer goods…but, I beg you to tell me where that right comes from?

But, I’m sure you feel more comfortable blaming “evil corporations”.

There is another way, so I'll answer your question. When fuel prices eventually get so prohibitively high that it's no longer viable and profitable to SHIP cheap stuff from all those cheap slave labor countries TO the U.S. for all those stupid consumers that crave cheap Walmartized crap products! When those fuel prices rise, maybe people in the U.S. will then eventually see that it's better for the pocketbook to demand higher quality repairable products and support our own economy when the cheap foreign stuff gains the high price, but retains low quality. But, in reality right now, cheap junk is the product fix to the product addicted consumer and the corporations like the tax dodge for their bottom line too!

By the way, large corporations are EVIL! They have no soul, they have no emotion or humanity and the Gods they worship are profit and money. Most don't care about the well being and pay of their employees, both workers and management, and they would just as soon cut the pay or fire said employees, WITHOUT BLINKING, if it was deemed best for the bottom line or survival of the corporation. They don't even care if they KILL their customers either, just as long as they don't kill so many people that it gets on someone's radar. How appropriate that I should happen to sit down and watch the movie 'Fast Food Nation' last night. The display of inhumanity was revolting, and yes, I may quit eating beef and chicken even. This also happens to play into ThunderBunny's other post about terrorism and our food supply. Watching all those illegal immigrants slaving away with bad attitudes and nil wages at a meat packing plant showed how easy it would be to poison or at least taint our food supply on a mass scale.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. teach a man to fish and you feed him for a life time.

social programs do not work

CUDA, you're assuming that all people are capable of fishing. What about those that are injured, infirm, old or sick? Do you let them fall through the cracks to suffer or die? What about children born with birth defects that have huge medical bills for the parents to pay? Our medical system can keep almost anyone alive with any medical problem, but they don't think of the cost that must be payed, only that they kept someone alive. Do you let a child die because the parents go bankrupt and can't afford to care for said child? Not all social programs are worthless. Not everyone is able to fish for themselves, that's why we are a 'civilized society', to protect and help one another survive in a harsh world. There WILL always be the deadbeats, but you don't destroy the social program to get rid of the deadbeats, you instead get rid of the deadbeats if they won't pull their weight.

Will, I KNOW that both parties are corrupt, it just happens that the Republicans are making the stink right now because they don't like Obama and want to stick it to him at all costs. It's part of their game now, hinder, not support and maybe they'll get into office in 2010 to screw things up in their own indomitable way. Or worse, we'll get Palin, the Tea party and a nightmare! I do happen to identify with the Democratic Philosophy, but they don't seem to believe in it themselves anymore. They too have been poisoned by corruption. I was interested in GOOOH for about 2 seconds until I saw that link to Fox and Friends. Nothing but moron birdbrains! GOOOH's premise is noble, but something's off about the backers. Besides, the Tea Party is not something I would remotely consider joining knowing their background and funding (Dick Armey in part) and the TOTAL LACK of any substantive solutions, only retoric. All they do is scream get rid of big government and taxes, not how to fix government so it works for all more efficiently. And after reading all sorts of opinions on the Fair Tax Act around the web, I've come to believe that it's not going to be a good fix either. It's still rigged against those who don't make much income. Someone will still have to pay and since corporations don't contribute much anyway to the U.S. tax base, you can bet the rich will figure out a way to dodge their fair share too. Tariffs, on the other hand, with a clause to prevent corporations from passing on the tax to their customers through price hikes, would go a long way to get corporations to pay their fair tax share or even moving our jobs back in country.

Bee, I'm afraid that I disagree with your opinion of Obama and his supposed righteous indignation at the financial reform bill being blocked. Something about what he's doing just smells like a half-assed attempt, like a lot of things he's done so far. He's not pushing for more STRICT reform because he's still trying to triangulate and appease the right. Senator Feingold has voiced the opinion that it's a compromise bill and he's not for it for that reason. Obama's still marginalizing the progressives in his quest for bipartisanship and that may come back to haunt him in 2012 because the Republicans are not playing along. They want him out at all costs.

[CUDA]

CUDA, you're assuming that all people are capable of fishing. What about those that are injured, infirm, old or sick? Do you let them fall through the cracks to suffer or die? What about children born with birth defects that have huge medical bills for the parents to pay? Our medical system can keep almost anyone alive with any medical problem, but they don't think of the cost that must be payed, only that they kept someone alive. Do you let a child die because the parents go bankrupt and can't afford to care for said child? Not all social programs are worthless. Not everyone is able to fish for themselves, that's why we are a 'civilized society', to protect and help one another survive in a harsh world. There WILL always be the deadbeats, but you don't destroy the social program to get rid of the deadbeats, you instead get rid of the deadbeats if they won't pull their weight.

now who's the one assuming. I'm not Naieve like Bee is. I know there are real needs. but the problem is we dont kick those deadbeats out. because we are a \"Civilized society\" we just make more social programs. our politicians sit in Washington 24/7 drumming up new ways to stay in power. and whats the easiest way? MORE SOCIAL PROGRAMS, they buy votes, we see it every day. how many times when Bush was in office did you hear the dems say the Rep were cutting social programs? I stopped counting. IT WAS A LIE, there were no cuts. they did increase spending just not as much. they just didnt propose as much as the Dems wanted to spend, an educated society is a heathy society. providing for a slacker mentality will collapse the country, just like it did Rome