Deep World

[Lothar]

Diedel, calm down. You really are overreacting -- you just decided that while it's OK to *think* badly about the project, it's not OK to *speak* badly about it, and if you "don't like the tone" you're going to flame people. Being a non-native English speaker, you also tend to misread people's intended tone, andthis is a bad combination. Instead of flaming... if you don't like somebody's tone, just ignore them. Yeah, merlin is being a bit of a jackass -- who cares? The more you flame him, the more he's going to criticize this guy's project.

I'm getting a major feeling of deja vu here -- my first time on this board, we got into a flamewar, and I didn't have a clue why it happened back then. Now I think I do -- you read everyone's tone a lot more strongly than you should.

You don't understand the context. The guy making Deep World is creating his game from scratch
, so he is free to create his D1/2 clone.

I do understand the context -- the guy is creating his game from scratch. He is *STILL* not free to create a D1/D2 lookalike game. It doesn't matter if he creates a brand new engine, new graphics, new textures, new models, etc. If he makes his game too similar to Descent (for example, if he makes you fly around in a Pyro-GX with lasers, vulcan, spreadfire, plasma, and fusion as a mercenary working for Dravis) he's in violation of copyright (I'm pretty sure the Descent name is not the only thing that's copyrighted.) If the first time I look at the game I think "that looks like Descent on a new graphics engine" (rather than "that looks like a Descent-type game... is that related to Forsaken?") that's not a good sign.

Now, the chances he'll actually get sued are nearly zero -- but just because he can get away with it doesn't mean it's ethical. If he's going to make the game nearly identical to Descent, he absolutely needs to get permission. If he doesn't get permission, he needs to change things around.

I'll say it again -- I really hope this guy succeeds. But he needs to deal with this issue. If there really aren't any copyright issues here, he could ask Interplay for permission and they'd say "that's not Descent, so we don't have any right to say anything." So nothing would be lost by asking -- unless he really is on questionable legal grounds.

[Diedel]

merlin was particularly negative about it, and I didn't like it. It was about how he expressed himself, not about what he expressed. You are claiming I said things that I haven't.

I "misread" people's tone, but merlin is a "jackass"? Now what - am I right, or am I wrong?

I think I have understood merlin pretty well; and just because I am not a native American/British doesn't mean I do not understand subtle undertones of the (American) English language. If you believe I know English only from school you are severely mistaken.

What is urging you need to interfere anyway?

I do understand the context -- the guy is creating his game from scratch. He is *STILL* not free to create a D1/D2 lookalike game. It doesn't matter if he creates a brand new engine, new graphics, new textures, new models, etc. If he makes his game too similar to Descent (for example, if he makes you fly around in a Pyro-GX with lasers, vulcan, spreadfire, plasma, and fusion as a mercenary working for Dravis) he's in violation of copyright (I'm pretty sure the Descent name is not the only thing that's copyrighted.) If the first time I look at the game I think "that looks like Descent on a new graphics engine" (rather than "that looks like a Descent-type game... is that related to Forsaken?") that's not a good sign.

As long as he is not taking money for it, there is nothing they could probably do about it. At least not in Germany.

Btw, I believe what you're saying about the "ethical" aspect here is a little exaggerated - apart from simple reality. There will hardly be any other Descent game (and if it was - it would be far superior to D2 or any D2 clone simply due to the fact that today's 3D games are much more detailled and complicated than those of the last millenium). So Deep World should rather be seen as a hommage to a great game of the past. That's pretty ethical, if you ask me (and so is offering it for free).

[Diedel]

Diedel, If you don't like what I have to say, then don't read my posts. I'm allowed to say WTF I want to anyone about anything.

So do I.

I'm not breaking the law or breaking some code of conduct.

Think it over ("WTF").

If this dude makes his game to similar to Descent, he canb get his (_O_) sued. End of Story.

Slightly hilarious.

[Tricord]

Diedel, stop your non-conformism and leave the text color alone. I am offended to see you think what you write is so much more important than someone else's writing you need to put it in another color.

[CDN_Merlin]

I tihnk Diedel has a God complex. Thinks he's right about everything.

Lothar, I'm not being an ass. I just stated the game didn't look good to me. Maybe I'll change my mind once a demo is out, no idea.

[Top Wop]

If this dude makes his game to similar to Descent, he canb get his (_O_) sued. End of Story.

Forsaken was "similar to Descent". Tell me why they were not sued.

[Diedel]

I tihnk Diedel has a God complex. Thinks he's right about everything.

Lothar, I'm not being an ***. I just stated the game didn't look good to me. Maybe I'll change my mind once a demo is out, no idea.

You outright put it down. And looking at your above comment about me, I'd say Lothar is pretty right about you.

[Diedel]

Diedel, stop your non-conformism and leave the text color alone. I am offended to see you think what you write is so much more important than someone else's writing you need to put it in another color.

The color tag is there to be used, or isn't it? If you don't want people to use it, remove it.

I find the medium blue on black pretty hard to read, btw, and I am not the only one here. And then I like this color more.

Deriving that from my choice of color I must believe what I write is more important than what others write is ridiculous.

I'd say the offence is "in the eye of the beholder" here.

(It almost looks like merlin has the right to say what he wants here, but I don't, huh?)

[CDN_Merlin]

Diedel, so what if I outright put it down. You said you had no relation with this dude yet you act like you are the one making the game and getting all offended by what I say.

Make up your mind. I just spoke my mind about what I saw on the web page and the movies I d/led. Don't tihnk I'm an asshoel just for disagreeing about a god damn game.

[Diedel]

merlin,

I just felt you were not doing that guy justice, and simply didn't like you being so negative about his project. That's all, and that's the last thing I will say about it.

I didn't say you're a *** for criticizing that game - I said it because you had started to get insultive.

I don't think that I was too harsh on you in my first post, but it's amazing who all thought they had to jump in on this.

[CDN_Merlin]

Well, get used to people not always liking what you like. It's how the world works.

[Diedel]

Well, get used to people not always liking what you like. It's how the world works.

I have no problem with people not liking what I like, but I will never ever get used to people who put something down just because they're in a bad mood or generally have a bad attitude.

[Tricord]

The color tag is there to be used, or isn't it? If you don't want people to use it, remove it.

So is the quote tag (and in fact all other tags), but you don't use it every time you make a post, now do you? The tags are to help you clarify, or accentuate something, but you are (ab)using it for what it was not intended.

And yes, changing color makes you look like you think that what you write is more important. It's like using a marker in a textbook. You don't go marking all text, do you?

If you want some joy with HTML, get yourself a free account on geocities, or something.

[DCrazy]

You're upset because he posts in color? how 'bout we take away your avatar, since it makes your posts stand out. Ah, hypocrisy.

I'm honestly surprised this thread isn't locked yet.

[Diedel]

And yes, changing color makes you look like you think that what you write is more important. It's like using a marker in a textbook.

That's what you think, not what I think.

I told you why I use the brighter color.

I'd prefer customizing this BB via my profile to show my color preferences on my monitor, but that doesn't seem to be an option here.

[Tricord]

You're upset because he posts in color? how 'bout we take away your avatar, since it makes your posts stand out. Ah, hypocrisy.

That's perfectly fine with me. In fact, I posted over six months without an avatar, as a silent protest against nazi moderators and forum signatures. Since both have been taken care of I gave myself a new one.

[Lothar]

Diedel,

I didn't feel the need to "jump in on this" to defend merlin -- I didn't like his attitude either. But you grouped me in with him because I asked the questions about the legal and ethical aspects of this guy's game design. You were treating me as if I had a similarly bad attitude, simply because I've voiced my concerns.

In any case:

As long as he is not taking money for it, there is nothing they could probably do about it. At least not in Germany.

Perhaps not -- and like I said, it's not likely they'd sue him even if he was in the US. But it would really surprise me if copyrights don't apply at all overseas -- you'd think they'd be recognized in other countries. And in any case, the legal question isn't the most important -- what's more important is the ethical question.

There will hardly be any other Descent game...

And part of the reason for that, from what I understand, is that Interplay isn't willing to give up its rights to the title and let Parallax (or Outrage / Volition) make another Descent game. That's pretty unfortunate. For someone else to do it is, at the very least, stepping on some people's toes -- Parallax *can't* create another Descent, so why should this guy? It would be different if Parallax simply didn't *want* to make another Descent but had full rights to it, but I've heard rumors that Parallax has given up on doing any more Descent games because they don't want to deal with Interplay.

Deep World should rather be seen as a hommage to a great game of the past. That's pretty ethical, if you ask me

Yes, that's true.

In that case, what harm could it do to ask permission? That's what I'm getting at -- if it's perfectly legal and perfectly ethical, there should be no problems securing permission, at least from Parallax.

I guess... I've voiced my concerns, and it's not going to help to repeat them any more. You can take this to heart, or you can ignore it. I think it's lame to create a copy of Descent without, at the very least, getting some level of implicit permission from Parallax, and you're not going to convince me otherwise. But it won't bother me one bit if you brush off my concerns -- it's not my ethical dilemma in the first place.

[CDN_Merlin]

Diedel, I was not in a foul mood. What I said is what I think. So stop putting words in my mouth.

[Diedel]

Diedel,

But you grouped me in with him because I asked the questions about the legal and ethical aspects of this guy's game design. You were treating me as if I had a similarly bad attitude, simply because I've voiced my concerns.

That was and is definitely not the case.

[Diedel]

Diedel, I was not in a foul mood. What I said is what I think. So stop putting words in my mouth.

Read Matthew 12,34.

[CDN_Merlin]

Sorry, but I won't read the bible. Read it enough times to know it's BS. Got some good points but if you stop to think about it, all the wars have been started due to religion.

[Tetrad]

Screw you guys.