In God we trust.....

[Will Robinson]

...
I don't think they intend it as a "stab at the heart of America" -- but even if they do, so what? It's their right. And if Fred Phelps buys some property in San Francisco or Berkley and puts up a GodHatesFags center, that's his right too. People, quit getting your panties all in a bunch over this.

It's not that they don't have a right but lots of things I have a right to do and say go undone and unsaid for a variety of good reasons everyday.
I'm looking for some good reasonable Muslims to realize that just because they have the right doesn't mean exercising it is a good idea. If they do think it is a good idea I think it is reasonable to suspect what good they see in it.

The site is in America not Mecca so when in a foreign land you have to consider how you carry yourself and how that meshes with, or runs counter to, the culture you are visiting. They already have a very serious public image problem here.
I don't believe they are so naive as to not have thought of this on their own and certainly now they are aware even if they truly were not before so, for me anyway, it really begs the question: WTF?!?!

[null0010]

[Ferno]

ya know Lothar, I could take that same logic and claim it's my right to post pornographic images on signposts in front of your house on the street. I could also say it's my right to place a bag of dogpoop on your porch, light it, and run away. I could also buy about four billboard ads saying you have herpes and claim that it's free speech.

but I don't. and I won't.

why?

Simple.

Not only are those things extremely tasteless to do, it's essentially abusing the right to free speech. It's there to prevent the government from throwing you in jail for saying things it doesn't find flattering. it's does NOT however, give you or I carte blance to anger good people because I don't like them.

you can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theatre and then when you get arrested, shout that it was your right to do so, because \"you have free speech\". it's an absurd argument and displays complete ignorance of what it really is.

the westbro baptist church have got to be the most cowardly, spineless and despicable people i've seen. I bet you if any of those soldiers were alive today, they would walk up to them and punch them right in the face.

and people would applaud.

their entire argument about how god hates fags is based on a massive logical fallacy. And it's 'correlation does not imply causation'. Just because god 'hates fags' as they put it, means in no way that the soldiers who died are 'fags'.

why are you even sticking up for them anyway Lothar?

[null0010]

[Lothar]

I could ... claim it's my right to post pornographic images on signposts in front of your house on the street. I could also say it's my right to place a bag of dogpoop on your porch, light it, and run away. I could also buy about four billboard ads saying you have herpes and claim that it's free speech.

... you can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theatre

Those all run afoul of other laws: public decency, private property (and probably endangerment), libel, and public endangerment.

"Free Speech" is a bad name for it. It should be called "free exchange of ideas". None of your examples meet that standard.

it's does NOT however, give you or I carte blance to anger good people because I don't like them.

It doesn't give us carte blance to intentionally provoke a confrontation -- if we use "fighting words" and then get into a fight, we are liable. But it does give us carte blance to publicly express beliefs others find deeply offensive.

Freedom of speech goes so far as to allow Muslims to build a mosque near Ground Zero, Fred Phelps' gang to hold up "God hates fags" signs, people of various religions to tell others they're going to hell and/or living life wrong on this earth, Red Sox fans to yell "Yankees suck", homosexuals to hold gay pride parades, neo-nazis to hold "whites are the best" parades, and on and on and on.

You don't have any right not to be offended, or not to be made angry. On the other side of the coin, you have the right to say things that will offend or anger others. If you have a problem with that, f**k you. If it offends or angers you that I just said that, f**k you twice.

[Will Robinson]

null0010 do you just like old guys that look like Yngwie Malmsteen or is there something about Voltaire you want to share in this conversation?

[AlphaDoG]

null0010 do you just like old guys that look like Yngwie Malmsteen or is there something about Voltaire you want to share in this conversation?

Actually, and I'm not Nullzipzip10, but Voltaire does actually fit into the convo.

If God has made us in his image, we have returned him the favor. – Voltaire

[Heretic]

Surprisingly he does fit in.

[Ferno]

Those all run afoul of other laws: public decency, private property (and probably endangerment), libel, and public endangerment.


"Free Speech" is a bad name for it. It should be called "free exchange of ideas". None of your examples meet that standard.

well, yeah. that's actually the point. just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should do it.

It doesn't give us carte blance to intentionally provoke a confrontation -- if we use "fighting words" and then get into a fight, we are liable. But it does give us carte blance to publicly express beliefs others find deeply offensive.

well how do you explain their behaviour then? they're essentially pissing on the graves in front of the grieving families. and that's an equivalant to 'fighting words'. Provoking people into doing something they otherwise would not.

think about this: if you had to go to a funeral, how would you feel if someone came over, started telling everybody that the deceased person had molested kids, embezzled thousands of dollars, and skinned pets alive, would you just think 'well he's in his rights to express his ideas'?

I REALLY doubt it.

Freedom of speech goes so far as to allow Muslims to build a mosque near Ground Zero, Fred Phelps' gang to hold up "God hates fags" signs, people of various religions to tell others they're going to hell and/or living life wrong on this earth, Red Sox fans to yell "Yankees suck", homosexuals to hold gay pride parades, neo-nazis to hold "whites are the best" parades, and on and on and on.

wow dude.. that's a pretty hodgepodge analogy you have going there. Quite a few pieces just don't fit, like the muslims bit, and the yankees bit. the gay pride parade thing is kind of a weird thing to add too. I get the feeling you're buying into the whole 'homosexuality is bad' and 'muslims are bad' ideas now.

You don't have any right not to be offended, or not to be made angry. On the other side of the coin, you have the right to say things that will offend or anger others. If you have a problem with that, f**k you. If it offends or angers you that I just said that, f**k you twice.

not saying i'm asking to be not offended. i'm asking for them to not be complete asstards in what they do. if they want to picket, do it somewhere OTHER than a funeral. it's just common decency.

and as for the 'fsck you twice' bit? that's kinda funny.

[Lothar]

how do you explain their behaviour then? they're essentially pissing on the graves in front of the grieving families.

The "they" I'm *primarily* talking about in this thread are the Muslims who are building a community center with a mosque in it.

It's the d-bag talking heads who are giving it media coverage, telling everyone it's a stab in the heart, etc. It's not like the developers are saying "hey America, we're building this here because Islam rocks and we killed a bunch of you on 9/11". Thems would be fightin words. But what we're actually seeing from them is "we're building a community center. It has a mosque in it. Leave us alone already."

As for Fred Phelps, yes, they're being provocative. No, their behavior is not smart or classy in any way. If they got in a fistfight, I suspect any reasonable judge would rule that they had it coming to them, so they're at least partly at fault for it. But that doesn't remove their freedom to be offensive, even at funerals.

that's a pretty hodgepodge analogy you have going there. Quite a few pieces just don't fit, like the muslims bit, and the yankees bit. the gay pride parade thing is kind of a weird thing to add too. I get the feeling you're buying into the whole 'homosexuality is bad' and 'muslims are bad' ideas now.

I'm not stating whether they're good or bad (I have no opinion on the Yankees.) Just listing things people might find offensive that they still have every right to do (the Muslims bit, in particular, was the topic at hand; the Fred Phelps bit is the tangent!) Even if they're being asstards about it, which many sports fans are when talking about their rivals, freedom of speech includes freedom to be an asstard. It even includes freedom to be provocative.

If you don't like what one of those groups is doing, there are appropriate ways to respond, like counteracting their ideas with better ones, or organizing a bigger counter-demonstration to overwhelm theirs (google for "Patriot Guard"). And there are inappropriate ways to respond, like trying to put legal restrictions on them because you find them offensive.

[null0010]

null0010 do you just like old guys that look like Yngwie Malmsteen or is there something about Voltaire you want to share in this conversation?

Actually, and I'm not Nullzipzip10, but Voltaire does actually fit into the convo.

If God has made us in his image, we have returned him the favor. – Voltaire

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire

[Will Robinson]

null0010 do you just like old guys that look like Yngwie Malmsteen or is there something about Voltaire you want to share in this conversation?

Actually, and I'm not Nullzipzip10, but Voltaire does actually fit into the convo.

If God has made us in his image, we have returned him the favor. – Voltaire

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire

See that wasn't so hard to type a few words to go with the picture! Considering a Voltaire reference could conjure a number of different things he had said, for example I was thinking:
"A witty saying proves nothing" - Voltaire

So your picture, alone, was worth a thousand witty sayings....

[Neo]

hmm.. I wonder when this thread will be completed. ^_~

[null0010]

null0010 do you just like old guys that look like Yngwie Malmsteen or is there something about Voltaire you want to share in this conversation?

Actually, and I'm not Nullzipzip10, but Voltaire does actually fit into the convo.

If God has made us in his image, we have returned him the favor. – Voltaire

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire

See that wasn't so hard to type a few words to go with the picture! Considering a Voltaire reference could conjure a number of different things he had said, for example I was thinking:
"A witty saying proves nothing" - Voltaire

So your picture, alone, was worth a thousand witty sayings....

Considering I was referencing one of his most famous quotations, I think it was pretty obvious. You're just being deliberately obtuse.

[Will Robinson]

null0010 do you just like old guys that look like Yngwie Malmsteen or is there something about Voltaire you want to share in this conversation?

Actually, and I'm not Nullzipzip10, but Voltaire does actually fit into the convo.

If God has made us in his image, we have returned him the favor. – Voltaire

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire

See that wasn't so hard to type a few words to go with the picture! Considering a Voltaire reference could conjure a number of different things he had said, for example I was thinking:
"A witty saying proves nothing" - Voltaire

So your picture, alone, was worth a thousand witty sayings....

Considering I was referencing one of his most famous quotations, I think it was pretty obvious. You're just being deliberately obtuse.

Riggghhhtttt...and you weren't because everyone knows Voltaire on sight from his portrait

[Heretic]

I didn't know who he was I had to TinEye him to find out.

[AlphaDoG]

I didn't know who he was I had to TinEye him to find out.

Funny all I had to do was right click then select properties and saw this - http://sydwalker.info/blog/wp-content/u ... rtrait.jpg - to know it was Voltaire.

[MehYam]

Well the way I look at it, I'd rather have a government that expounds a trust in God than a trust in the Government. One only needs look at the old Soviet Union to understand.

Which God? For there are many.

Thread's too long, didn't read. Just wondering if anybody managed to answer Flip's question yet. :p

[Heretic]

I didn't know who he was I had to TinEye him to find out.

Funny all I had to do was right click then select properties and saw this - http://sydwalker.info/blog/wp-content/u ... rtrait.jpg - to know it was Voltaire.

All I had to do was left click TinEye addon and select the picture. 2 clicks also to see who it is and see where the bandwidth theft got his image.

[Spidey]

Well the way I look at it, I'd rather have a government that expounds a trust in God than a trust in the Government. One only needs look at the old Soviet Union to understand.

Which God? For there are many.

Thread's too long, didn't read. Just wondering if anybody managed to answer Flip's question yet. :p

I don’t know if I answered the question, but I did address it.

[null0010]

null0010 do you just like old guys that look like Yngwie Malmsteen or is there something about Voltaire you want to share in this conversation?

Actually, and I'm not Nullzipzip10, but Voltaire does actually fit into the convo.

If God has made us in his image, we have returned him the favor. – Voltaire

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire

See that wasn't so hard to type a few words to go with the picture! Considering a Voltaire reference could conjure a number of different things he had said, for example I was thinking:
"A witty saying proves nothing" - Voltaire

So your picture, alone, was worth a thousand witty sayings....

Considering I was referencing one of his most famous quotations, I think it was pretty obvious. You're just being deliberately obtuse.

Riggghhhtttt...and you weren't because everyone knows Voltaire on sight from his portrait

If you're discussing politics, philosophy, or religion, you should.

[Will Robinson]

Riggghhhtttt...and you weren't because everyone knows Voltaire on sight from his portrait

If you're discussing politics, philosophy, or religion, you should.

I try to avoid discussions of any depth with people who can't follow a discussion without the aid of pictures....I don't always succeed....

[null0010]

Riggghhhtttt...and you weren't because everyone knows Voltaire on sight from his portrait

If you're discussing politics, philosophy, or religion, you should.

I try to avoid discussions of any depth with people who can't follow a discussion without the aid of pictures....I don't always succeed....

I try to avoid discussions of any depth with people who can't follow a discussion without the aid of ad hominem attacks....I don't always succeed....

[Heretic]

Whoa I felt some trollscillations going on.

[Will Robinson]

... I try to avoid discussions of any depth with people who can't follow a discussion without the aid of ad hominem attacks....I don't always succeed....

Well if scolding me for daring to engage in a discussion about politics, philosophy, or religion without recognizing Voltaires image is what you consider deep then, yes, you failed too.

[Foil]

Will,

Your point is well-made, and you have the respect of those of us that have been around for any length of time; there's no need to continue taking this guy's bait.

Null,

I know that you're new to the DBB, but you need to understand that around here, a thousand words is considerably better than a picture. Next time, just clarify your intended meaning.

[Will Robinson]

Will,

Your point is well-made, and you have the respect of those of us that have been around for any length of time; there's no need to continue taking this guy's bait.

Null,

I know that you're new to the DBB, but you need to understand that around here, a thousand words is considerably better than a picture. Next time, just clarify your intended meaning.

sorry, sometimes I just do stuff to amuse myself without realizing it gets disruptive....I guess I can stop searching for the picture of a kid shouting 'Poopy Pants' for my follow up to whatever was coming next

[null0010]

Will,

Your point is well-made, and you have the respect of those of us that have been around for any length of time; there's no need to continue taking this guy's bait.

Null,

I know that you're new to the DBB, but you need to understand that around here, a thousand words is considerably better than a picture. Next time, just clarify your intended meaning.

I see. Next time I'll use more ad hom, to try and keep up.

[Foil]

I see. Next time I'll use more ad hom.

Enough with the 'parting shots'.

Next time just clarify your meaning, and avoid the drama.

[null0010]

I see. Next time I'll use more ad hom.

Enough with the 'parting shots'.

Next time just clarify your meaning, and avoid the drama.

[Lothar]

I see. Next time I'll use more ad hom. :)

Enough with the 'parting shots'.

Next time just clarify your meaning, and avoid the drama.

Agreed.

Most of us have been around the internet for a long, long time. We know what trolling looks like, and we don't particularly like it. I've cut some slack thus far, but continued drama, backhanded comments, and intentional obtuseness is not the way to get on my good side.

[null0010]

If I am trolling and making \"parting shots\" by this definition, then certainly so is Will Robinson.

[Heretic]

Now we hear a trollagory.

[Will Robinson]

If I am trolling and making "parting shots" by this definition, then certainly so is Will Robinson.

guilty as charged, i'm sorry and will try to be a good boy

[null0010]

moved

[Heretic]

This belongs over here http://descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?t=17251 Then you can cast your vote too.

[null0010]

This belongs over here http://descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?t=17251 Then you can cast your vote too.

But... we were talking about the mosque earlier in the thread...

[Heretic]

Yes a Mosque not a man going on a trip.

[Heretic]

Why was no one upset when a mosque was built INSIDE the Pentagon less than a month after 184 people were killed there on 9/11?

Some Mosque that turned out to be

You should never believe the far left writings of salon.

The Pentagon Chaplain's Office schedules weekly religious services in the chapel for Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Protestants and Episcopalians, as well as a daily Catholic Mass. Muslim worshippers can gather daily to offer prayers and can attend a Friday Prayer Service led by an Imam.

[Spidey]

LoL…Busted!

If they truly want a site for healing, maybe they should build a chapel there instead of a Mosque.

Or at least include one.


(not original, I know)