The religion of peace is and has always been on the march.
A voice from the middle east:
When Islam Acts Like a Conquering Army
One does not celebrate a victory by planting one's flag on the soil of the enemy unless he is occupying that land or intends to occupy it. If the Mosque is to be built in New York next to Ground Zero, then we might as well move Iwo Jima Memorial to Japan.
Some 25 years ago, I met at the infamous Le Fouqet in Paris with a Saudi national businessman who was very close to the al-Saud. It was a business meeting but because of few drinks the Saudi had, the conversation quickly turned to politics. Knowing I held a US passport as well as a Saudi one, he had a message for the US: Saudi Arabia will become the most powerful country and we will conquer all lands.
It was almost comedic hearing a Saudi, half inebriated, claim world dominance. The connect between his words and reality were so far apart, I did not give it too much thought at the time, nor did I fully understand what his words meant. These were the words of a drunkard fool after all.
Saudi Arabia controls Makah and Medina, the two Holiest Places in Islam. This means that 1.5 billion Muslims turn their heads and kneel for Saudi Arabia five times a day as a reminder of their piety but more importantly their submission. What the Saudi businessman was telling me twenty five years ago was \"It's not the oil stupid, it's religion\". If we let Saudi Arabia fund and build the Mosque in New York as a token of their triumphalism over the US for 9/11, we are in fact not applying the Freedom of Religion laws but rather, we are giving my religion the chance to conquer New York by planting its flag of victory.
Mayor Bloomberg is focused on one set of laws when he should be investigating every religious edict or Fatwa of Islam that emanated from our scholars the last 25 years. But what if religion acts like a conquering army? How could we reconcile this fact with our laws? Being an American, laws will always prevail, but being a Muslim also, I have a warning: We will conquer you if you do not change your laws accordingly.
The US better reconcile between Freedom of Religion and Islam as a conquering army soon. The two cannot co-exist for long.
What, exactly, are they conquering again? Territory? Ideas?
A mosque in New York City is no more the move of a \"conquering army\" than a single muslim on a park bench reading a single page of the Quran. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg, as Thomas Jefferson once said.
null0010 wrote:How? Will they burn down the White House like in 1812 or something?
Please don't beg them to try again they have a pretty good track record of success on their second shot. Now if you could get them to target Congress instead...
I'd love to know if any Muslims have raised their voice publicly to suggest putting it so close to Ground Zero so soon is a bad idea for the public relations concerns of Islam.
Will Robinson wrote:I'd love to know if any Muslims have raised their voice publicly to suggest putting it so close to Ground Zero so soon is a bad idea for the public relations concerns of Islam.
It's been there for years, in the old building, and all they want to do at this point is erect a new building. I imagine they thought that would not be a problem.
At this point, if they back down, it sends a message that screaming loud enough will stop the construction of mosques and muslim community centers all over the United States (which some groups are also trying to do at this point.)
So unless they want to send that message, they can't back down.
Will Robinson wrote:I'd love to know if any Muslims have raised their voice publicly to suggest putting it so close to Ground Zero so soon is a bad idea for the public relations concerns of Islam.
Yes some Muslims have been coming out against it but you won't find any main stream media talking or writing about it.
Will Robinson wrote:I'd love to know if any Muslims have raised their voice publicly to suggest putting it so close to Ground Zero so soon is a bad idea for the public relations concerns of Islam.
It's been there for years, in the old building, and all they want to do at this point is erect a new building. I imagine they thought that would not be a problem.
At this point, if they back down, it sends a message that screaming loud enough will stop the construction of mosques and muslim community centers all over the United States (which some groups are also trying to do at this point.)
So unless they want to send that message, they can't back down.
That is one way to look at it but regarding the desire to send a message what a great message they could send by approaching the city and saying something like: 'We realize the sensitivity of the location so we are asking you to help us secure an arrangement to relocate the Center/Mosque to a site a few blocks away. We are doing this as a gesture of good will to bridge the divide between the two cultures that some radicals have created and others seek to maintain and make wider'.
Will Robinson wrote:I'd love to know if any Muslims have raised their voice publicly to suggest putting it so close to Ground Zero so soon is a bad idea for the public relations concerns of Islam.
It's been there for years, in the old building, and all they want to do at this point is erect a new building. I imagine they thought that would not be a problem.
At this point, if they back down, it sends a message that screaming loud enough will stop the construction of mosques and muslim community centers all over the United States (which some groups are also trying to do at this point.)
So unless they want to send that message, they can't back down.
That is one way to look at it but regarding the desire to send a message what a great message they could send by approaching the city and saying something like: 'We realize the sensitivity of the location so we are asking you to help us secure an arrangement to relocate the Center/Mosque to a site a few blocks away. We are doing this as a gesture of good will to bridge the divide between the two cultures that some radicals have created and others seek to maintain and make wider'.
That would still start a bunch of of people screaming, "Not in MY backyard!" trying to get all new mosques relocated to less "offensive" locations.
Main tenets Central to Islam is the absolute sense that there can only be one God - Allah - and that he is the source of all creation and disposer of all lives and events. Hence, there is no God but God and Mohammed is his messenger.
All people should become a single Umma - community - witnessing to that fact.
Seems to me that the religion of Islam is a great tool to bring everything under one headship, err community. . Maybe that is why everyone is being pushed towards acceptance, Islam and the one-worlders share the same basic ideal.
null0010 wrote:...
That would still start a bunch of of people screaming, "Not in MY backyard!" trying to get all new mosques relocated to less "offensive" locations.
It would also start a bunch of people saying 'way to go..it's about time...good for them'!
They have nothing like that going for them right now.
Anyone who would say not in my back yard is saying it anyway so the builders of the Center/Mosque would have nothing to lose by offering the gesture. The perception is they are hoisting a very different gesture....
And remember, this wouldn't be government setting a precedent deciding to move them this would be voluntarily done so it wouldn't provide the NIMBY's any leverage to affect other situations.
Will Robinson wrote:And remember, this wouldn't be government setting a precedent deciding to move them this would be voluntarily done so it wouldn't provide the NIMBY's any leverage to affect other situations.
Will Robinson wrote:And remember, this wouldn't be government setting a precedent deciding to move them this would be voluntarily done so it wouldn't provide the NIMBY's any leverage to affect other situations.
None except encouragement.
So they would be encouraged to hope others would volunteer as well? Big deal.
Meanwhile the Ground Zero imam, if he offered to build elsewhere, will have done moderate Muslims a huge favor and actually achieved his stated goal of ingratiating Islam to Americans instead of the exact opposite which is what he's doing right now....which is why so many question the sincerity of his stated goal. Can he be that stupid or is he that arrogant? I'd have more respect for him if he simply said 'FU I have the right so piss off!'
Right now he seems to be pissing down our back and telling us its raining!
So lets reverse engineer this. A group of Jewish zealots drive fuel oil/fertilizer tankers to a Dearborn Michigan Muslim street festival and push the red buttons, immolating thousands of innocent Islamist enjoying themselves. Five years later a Jewish rabbi who earlier stated that it was partially the Muslims fault for the tragedy, gathers some money and wants to build a Synagogue a block away from ground zero.
Will Robinson wrote:And remember, this wouldn't be government setting a precedent deciding to move them this would be voluntarily done so it wouldn't provide the NIMBY's any leverage to affect other situations.
None except encouragement.
So they would be encouraged to hope others would volunteer as well? Big deal.
Meanwhile the Ground Zero imam, if he offered to build elsewhere, will have done moderate Muslims a huge favor and actually achieved his stated goal of ingratiating Islam to Americans instead of the exact opposite which is what he's doing right now....which is why so many question the sincerity of his stated goal. Can he be that stupid or is he that arrogant? I'd have more respect for him if he simply said 'FU I have the right so piss off!'
Right now he seems to be pissing down our back and telling us its raining!
Would you let him build his 'mosque' in your backyard?
Would you let him build his 'mosque' in your backyard?
I wouldn't let Jesus build a church in my backyard either, I want to put a pool there one day...
But they are both welcome to build it in the adjoining lot if they own it.
However if the adjoining lot was Ground Zero for either an extremist Christian or Islamic groups horrendous slaughter of my innocent neighbors I would tell either of them it is a very bad choice to do so.
My position isn't what should government allow them to build,
my position is if you sincerely want to help ease the pain then put down the salt and step away from the open wound.
ThunderBunny wrote:The president just came out in support of the mosque, so everything should be peachy-keen.
All controversy will stop and it's a done deal.
...
Yeah, God forbid the President of the United States should uphold the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States. The world's gonna end, for sure.
I really wish the people getting upset over this "issue" would have the guts to call a spade a spade. If you're going to be a religious bigot, come out and say as much, instead of hiding behind ridiculous claims of "inappropriate locations" and "insensitivity." Grow some balls and own up to it.
I really wish the people getting upset over this \"issue\" would have the guts to call a spade a spade. If you're going to be a religious bigot, come out and say as much
Let's see. How is this for religious bigotry?
You're not a believer, so you're less than human- therefore:
you cannot be looked upon as a friend or equal
you can be lied to
any claims you ever had on property are meaningless- everything you own is for the taking
you can be killed at any time
your wife/sister/daughter may be taken as booty to be raped and/or murdered as well
How's that for bigotry?
. "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun"- Mao Zedong
These people are not Saudi nationals, members of an extremist group, or terrorists. They are, by all indications, fairly moderate muslims who are trying to build a building. No one had a problem with them being in the old building, and their new building will look much like any other building in New York City. There will be no dome or minarets, and if it wasn't for a sign out front naming the structure, no one would even know that people were inside praying.
Top Gun wrote:I really wish the people getting upset over this "issue" would have the guts to call a spade a spade. If you're going to be a religious bigot, come out and say as much, instead of hiding behind ridiculous claims of "inappropriate locations" and "insensitivity." Grow some balls and own up to it.
The ADL has come out against this…are they bigots?
Top Gun wrote:I really wish the people getting upset over this "issue" would have the guts to call a spade a spade. If you're going to be a religious bigot, come out and say as much, instead of hiding behind ridiculous claims of "inappropriate locations" and "insensitivity." Grow some balls and own up to it.
The ADL has come out against this…are they bigots?
In this case? Yeah, I have to think so. Because you can be damn sure that if this situation involved a Jewish cultural center instead of an Islamic one, the ADL would be screaming bloody murder. You can't have it both ways.
Top Gun wrote:...
I really wish the people getting upset over this "issue" would have the guts to call a spade a spade. If you're going to be a religious bigot, come out and say as much, instead of hiding behind ridiculous claims of "inappropriate locations" and "insensitivity." Grow some balls and own up to it.
How about you grow some wrinkles on that mass inside your skull and consider there could be more than just pro or anti Islam motives at work here!
Top Gun wrote:...
I really wish the people getting upset over this "issue" would have the guts to call a spade a spade. If you're going to be a religious bigot, come out and say as much, instead of hiding behind ridiculous claims of "inappropriate locations" and "insensitivity." Grow some balls and own up to it.
How about you grow some wrinkles on that mass inside your skull and consider there could be more than just pro or anti Islam motives at work here!
Well then feel free to enlighten the rest of us as to what those may be, O Exalted One. Because all I see here is a whole bunch of fear-mongering and very little worth discussing.
So why say anything? If it's not worth discussing you should have kept your trap shut. If it's all about bigotry American is 70% bigots. Over half of the democrats are bigots too because 54 percent of them don't want it built there either. 70% of independents don't want it. Where 82 percent of Republicans disapprove of it.
Winston Churchill wrote:An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Obviously because it is a topic that needs discussing but in a more sensible manner instead of the "I'm gonna comment but I'll never nail down what I really think" manner that has dominated a LOT of the conversation on this topic.
Top Gun's right. People should either own up to how they really feel/think about it ... or shut up.
How do I really feel and think about it? That "Cultural Center / Mosque" has just as much right to be at the selected location as any Christian "Cultural Center / Chapel" would have.
Sure, it's proximity to the Twin Towers location is painful to some (mostly those who hate the religion, not the perpetrators) and that may seem insensitive to those people. It's not meant to be, and it wasn't the religion that was the perpetrators of 9/11, it was perpetrated by filled with hate.
THIS IS AMERICA! We claim to be the "Land of the Free" and "Home of the Brave" and it is a land of Religious Freedom and that is one of founding principles of this Nation. If we can't adhere to the tenet of Religious Freedom, then we would be behaving no better than the people who wrongly herded thousands of Japanese descent Americans into internment camps during World War II. It was wrong then it is still wrong now.
So what your saying is we shouldn't be like the Democratic President that signed Executive Order 9066 on February 19, 1942 that allowed the Japanese citizens to be interned? I thought the Democrats were the hero's in this debate.
Heretic wrote:So what your saying is we shouldn't be like the Democratic President that signed Executive Order 9066 on February 19, 1942 that allowed the Japanese citizens to be interned? I thought the Democrats were the hero's in this debate.
That's a real nice strawman you've built there, especially considering
Heretic wrote:Over half of the democrats are bigots too because 54 percent of them don't want it built there either.
re: the ADL, I think Fareed Zakaria's letter to them is a good read on how they are supporting bigotry and destroying their years of credibility.
I think everyone knows they have a right to practice their religion and build the Mosque where the want to build one. The thing is most people don't believe it's the right thing to do. Do they have the right? Yes no doubt in my mind they have the right to do it. Is it the right decision to build there? NO they could have been more tolerant to the community at large. Isn't that what every one wants, is to be tolerant to every ones views?
Now how come you don't point out that the majority of the people in the poll say it's wrong to build there? Then the majority turn around and say the have the right to build. No one is deigning their rights they just think it's intolerant of them to rub salt in the communities wounds.
Having the right to do something doesn't make it right to do it.
. Maybe that is why everyone is being pushed towards acceptance, Islam and the one-worlders share the same basic ideal.
