Fall of an Empire?

[Tunnelcat]

Does anyone see the United States as ending up like the Roman Empire or, for a more modern century example, Germany, failing because of debt woes, unemployment, social turmoil, international wars, class warfare, and greedy excess? The of the reasons they think Rome fell was because they ran out of their economy's building power, slaves. Now, all it would take to bring the U.S. to it's knees would be a cutoff of oil or a debtor nation suddenly demanding repayment. Are we on the brink?

China, Saudi Arabia and many other Middle Eastern States now hold a huge chunk of our national debt. They now have the ability to manipulate our government that's not in OUR nation's or people's best interest. I believe our nation is drifting towards a Plutocracy or Corporatocracy that's foreign influenced, but free market driven. Our great and strong middle class is shrinking, which has been the powerhouse of our stable economic state for so many years.

Most conservative Americans immediately point to lazy, greedy workers and social programs for seniors and indigent people as being responsible for our increasing debt, but I believe that's not the real reason. After watching my tax dollars go to bank bailouts to ingrate banks that haven't helped the common people, jobs being shipped overseas and encouraged by lousy tax policy that favors corporations and now the Bush upper class tax cut fight, I believe it's the upper class that's now \"looting\" our treasury, as the writer of this article so aptly coined.

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/12/04/the- ... tates.html

I put forth the proposition that the rich don't want to help fund society anymore, they only want to enrich themselves. Here's a perfect example in Briton, in which education is slowly being made too expensive for most people to afford, because of debt and underfunding. When that happens, you get a lot of poor, uneducated people that get restless and angry because they no longer have the opportunity to get an education that might get them better paying jobs.





I guess the rich could live in walled-in compounds to protect themselves from the poor, dirty, out of work, seething masses. Or they live in foreign countries, far away from the people they steal the money from.

[null0010]

When the world collapses, I'm moving to Mister Lee's Greater Hong Kong. The rat-things will protect me.

[Lothar]

all it would take to bring the U.S. to it's knees would be a cutoff of oil or a debtor nation suddenly demanding repayment

For oil, it would take a coordinated worldwide effort (including Canada and Mexico) which would have to be sustained for several years (to run out various reserves.) It's not the sort of thing that would happen at the drop of a hat.

For "sudden" repayment of debt, keep in mind that all forms of treasury securities (T-bills, T-notes, T-bonds, and TIPS) have maturity dates. You can't simply demand sudden repayment; you get paid when it says you get paid. If you want to cash out, you have to resell it on the secondary market.

Now, a nation could choose to stop purchasing treasuries, and that would certainly affect the economy, but it would only be really severe if several other nations stopped buying at once, and no other nations or private entities stepped in to pick up the slack. Furthermore, the fact that China and the Saudis own a huge chunk of US debt is a sign that China and the Saudis thing Treasuries are a good investment. They won't pull back unless that's not longer true -- in which case, their trying to cash in the debt wouldn't be the cause, but an effect of a failing economy.

jobs being shipped overseas and encouraged by lousy tax policy that favors corporations

Jobs don't get shipped overseas because of tax policy that favors corporations here; jobs get shipped overseas because our tax and labor policies disfavor corporations relative to overseas. No corporation was ever like "man, the tax policies here are so great, we should totally hire people from somewhere with s**tty tax policies to make up for it."

the rich don't want to help fund society anymore, they only want to enrich themselves.

Wait... are you saying the rich used to be different? Like, the rich suddenly became greedy and selfish?

The rich have always been in it for themselves. So have the poor. The key, then, is to build a system wherein those who are in it for themselves will help the rest of society on the way. Policies designed to "screw the rich" or perpetuate "class warfare" stereotypes don't help; policies that encourage innovation and investment and job creation help.

There is certainly danger on the horizon. It's not going to come from oil being cut off, foreign-held debt, or tax laws that favor businesses. It's going to come from laws that make it difficult for the economy to operate smoothly -- lack of transparency, overly meddlesome non-transparency-based regulations, high taxes on investment and job creation, "carbon taxes", and so on.

[Spidey]

The world is going to end because people are not taxed enough…

It’s no longer a moral issue, it has become really serious.

[Bet51987]

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[Will Robinson]

...
And yes, the environmental rules and taxes hurt a corporation's bottom line but I like breathing clean air, drinking clean water from the faucet, and not having landfills choked with plastic bottles or what have you. ...

Bee

Have you figured out how, in your world, you would regulate the environmental impact of the companies in the foreign lands the american companies have to compete with? After all the air you breath and the water you drink is affected by more than just the local supply!

The U.N. and other "authorities" like Kyoto are already giving the largest polluters exemptions from the same regulations they want penalize America for. The reason they do it is they say these other countries are trying to catch up to the United States so een though they use the environment as the excuse it is obviously not about clean air etc. it is about taking wealth from the U.S. and giving it to India, China, etc. etc.
How do you reconcile that when you make a better economic/enviromental model for your world?

[Heretic]

No the empire will not fall but the Republic will just like the Roman Republic fell. The Roman Republic and the transition into the Roman Empire happen after the Republic fell. We can see the US Republic becoming a Empire at this moment of our history. The current trend of the politicians is to dominate the political arena and they are exceeding the limitations of our Republic.

[Spidey]

Hey, I have an idea…how about all of the people who complain about jobs leaving this country…shut the hell up, and go out and make some jobs instead.

Don’t complain about it…do something about it.

Average American…

Gets up, puts on their Chinese made shoes, gets into their Japanese car, drives to Walmart…to buy more “cheap” stuff, all along the way complaining there aren’t any more good jobs, because of those big bad corporations.

[Gooberman]

...gets into their Japanese car...

My current car is Japanese, my previous one was American, and the amount of repairs that it cost me was just nuts. I will try a (different brand) of American for my next car, the problem is, is that my current one is still running so well that I think it will be a while.

People arn't going out and buying Japanese cars for the love of the people/country, its because they are better. I could handle a higher up front cost, but I do want to know that when I wake up in the morning, and turn the key, the car is going to start.

[Bet51987]

.

[Avder]

... gets into their Japanese car...

Right now I drive an american made car that is falling apart. I cant wait to get rid of it. The next car I buy is either going to be a Toyota or Honda. My aunt, uncle, and my cousin all drive Japanese cars and they never have any problems with them.

The issue with "American" made vs "foreign" made is that often the American made stuff is TOTAL CRAP.

Oh, also, Fords are made in Mexico. Toyotas are made in the US of A.

Which company is more American?

Also, were already a corporatocracy. And whoever said that its all about stealing wealth from the Us and moving it to china, india, and whatever, is absolutely right. The corporations are in on this because it all helps their bottom line in the process, and if the Us goes bankrupt they can always move their headquarters and sales to the next first world country.

What needs to happen is we need to forget about free trade and get going on fair trade. We also need to reduce trade with countries like china, india, etc who are just so freaking terrible and promote trade with countries that actually give a damn, like Canada, Japan, and western Europe. Our export deficit is sky high, and that just shows where our wealth is going.

[Spidey]

Cherry pickers.

[snoopy]

TC:

I think you're right, and you're wrong.

You're right that the rich pillaging the country for all it's worth is a bad thing.

You're wrong in that big government is a culprit, too. the more buracracy there is out there, the more money gets wasted dealing with red tape, and the less actually makes it out to help people.

In summary: if the people were less greedy, and took better care of their employees and their communities, there would be more money to go around because of the better wages; and the local communities would get more help for their poor, both from the CEO's and from the middle class. Since the poor would be locally cared for, there wouldn't be a need for huge government machines, and less money would be wasted by the lawmakers and their lobbyists.

Moral of the story: the world would be a much better place if we were all just a bit less greedy and a bit more generous.

[Spidey]

Yea, and we could do with less finger pointing and more owning up to the place we \"all\" have in the economy.

[flip]

The problem is that none of these corporations have any loyalty to the United States anymore. It's their actions that are weakening this country from within. They had the benefit of becoming wealthy in a free market, then take the fruits and benefits of that opportunity and build the infrastructure of foreign countries. Nothing short of treason in my opinion

[null0010]

nothing short of treason in my opinion

[flip]

You don't think actions that systematically weaken and threaten our sovereignty are treasonous? How is it not treasonous? It definitely will cause the same outcome of treason.

\"In law, treason is the crime that covers some of the more serious acts of betrayal of one's sovereign or nation\"

The latest economic downfall, by this definition, is treason.

[Will Robinson]

You don't think actions that systematically weaken and threaten our sovereignty are treasonous? How is it not treasonous? It definitely will cause the same outcome of treason.

"In law, treason is the crime that covers some of the more serious acts of betrayal of one's sovereign or nation"

The latest economic downfall, by this definition, is treason.

Your definition kind of fits the Treasury Secretary too doesn't it?

[Avder]

You don't think actions that systematically weaken and threaten our sovereignty are treasonous? How is it not treasonous? It definitely will cause the same outcome of treason.

"In law, treason is the crime that covers some of the more serious acts of betrayal of one's sovereign or nation"

The latest economic downfall, by this definition, is treason.

Your definition kind of fits the Treasury Secretary too doesn't it?

Throw Congress, the executive branch, and SCOTUS in there as well.

Who feels like going back to the Articles of Confederation? Show of hands?

[null0010]

I hope you're joking, those were horrible.

[Avder]

I hope you're joking, those were horrible.

And our "strong" Federal government is doing what for us lately? Screwing us over? The constitution is so totally ignored it may as well be nonexistent at this point.

Devolve it down so all it does is regulate interstate trade and provide for a common defense.

[Skyalmian]

All dark empires fall; it is only a matter of \"time\". For those truly paying attention, the signs are already there and very alarming.

It is worth noting that the longer the collapse is delayed (as the power players are currently doing as much and as long as they can), the more sudden and extreme it will be when it does happen, to where it could literally happen overnight in its entirety.

[Tunnelcat]

TC:

I think you're right, and you're wrong.

You're right that the rich pillaging the country for all it's worth is a bad thing.

You're wrong in that big government is a culprit, too. the more buracracy there is out there, the more money gets wasted dealing with red tape, and the less actually makes it out to help people.

In summary: if the people were less greedy, and took better care of their employees and their communities, there would be more money to go around because of the better wages; and the local communities would get more help for their poor, both from the CEO's and from the middle class. Since the poor would be locally cared for, there wouldn't be a need for huge government machines, and less money would be wasted by the lawmakers and their lobbyists.

Moral of the story: the world would be a much better place if we were all just a bit less greedy and a bit more generous.

Why am I wrong about big government? It's full of self-serving fat cats that crave power and get scads of money from lobbyists. They do things for their best interests or the interests of corporations, not the common people. I don't know, it's kind of depressing me lately.

Isn't this one of the reasons the Tea Party came into being, overspending, out of touch government toadies, failing to do the will of the people? I sure don't see them rallying around now against those tax cuts we're going to be keeping, that will add to our already massive deficit. Where'd these people go? Oh, that's right! They just wanted tax cuts, to hell with the deficit.

[Bet51987]

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[Avder]

I would love to believe the tea party is an independently born movement. The problem is there are simply too many ties with prominent republicans for it to be completely independent. Its likely that some GOP dissidents saw some discontent and a few isolated groups of people that generally thought the way do, and sought to unite them.

I do not currently think that the tea party is a part of the GOP however. In fact I tend to believe the tea party is likely the start of the GOP dividing itself.