D3Edit Revisited

The place to promote and link to Descent levels - both multiplayer and singleplayer - D1, D2 and D3.

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Resilient
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D3Edit Revisited

Post by Resilient »

Every now and then, I find myself popping in the D3 CD and playing around with a level or two (or three) of Retribution, Mercenary, or some SP/MP levels I've found online. I recently became interested in the idea of level building again. You know, "for the hell of it". :) I don't really expect my level to get played by a lot of people, nor do I expect my designs to be anything worthy of high praise.

The fact is, I have played with getting an actual, working level built. I've used programs such as GAM Tool, HOG2 Workshop, and others to get really into the design business. I even had the D3SDK installed at one point, hoping I could learn to create scripts. I got most of it down, but never published a level. Now, here we are, almost 5 years since Descent 3 hit the shelves, and I want to create a level with the intention of uploading it for people to try. :P

My first questionâ??my main reason for postingâ??is: Does anyone have any tips they'd like to share? I already know the basics; creating faces, texturing, texture alignment, lighting, joining rooms (although I remember I used to have a problem with this...if I tried to join rooms consecutively and then ended up having to join a room in between two or more others, something would go wrong, like I could join to one but not the rest). Anyways, I might figure it out. I hope. But any advice would be much appreciated.

Second question: How many people still play D3? I mean, I know it's getting old but I still like to come back to it every once in a while. It's still fun to play. But I know there are a lot of people out there that will play a game for a while, later on find a new one that grabs their interest, and never come back to the old games. Does D3 still have a decent number of players left?

So, this long-time Descent fan and wannabe level designer would just like to know, what the "sages" have to offer and if the effort is really worth it. :) If I haven't put anyone to sleep with this long post, please put in your 2¢. :D
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Skyalmian
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Post by Skyalmian »

Second question: How many people still play D3? I mean, I know it's getting old but I still like to come back to it every once in a while. It's still fun to play. But I know there are a lot of people out there that will play a game for a while, later on find a new one that grabs their interest, and never come back to the old games. Does D3 still have a decent number of players left?
No clue, really. I can, however, throw numbers at you but though they're just recorded statistics, I'm perplexed at them. Get this: though it seems that no one ever visits the site anymore, everyday there're 400+ sessions and 5,000+ hits at www.gameedit.com and anywhere between 75,000 and 200,000KB (200M) of the site's bandwidth used every day (700M - 2.1GB each week). Thursday alone there was 292M used. Every day for as long as I've been checking the levels are always being downloaded (800 this week so far, Nosferatu currently at top of the list with 32).

I really, really wonder...
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Floyd
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Re: D3Edit Revisited

Post by Floyd »

Resilient wrote:(although I remember I used to have a problem with this...if I tried to join rooms consecutively and then ended up having to join a room in between two or more others, something would go wrong, like I could join to one but not the rest). Anyways, I might figure it out. I hope. But any advice would be much appreciated.
check out the tutorials at http://www.gameedit.com/descent3 .
as what your special case concerns, recall all the actions you have done, take step-by-step notes and provide a screenshot or the d3l file, for others (i'd gladly help) to retrace what you did.
that's the easiest way to figure it out i guess.

gl, ~F
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Diti
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Post by Diti »

Let me throw out some numbers:

At descent3fischlein.de you can see, how often a particular level has been downloaded. Here are the actual top 5 downloads:

1. Subway Dancer (Atan) 4428
2. Varicos Veins for Entropy (Dwnundr) 1697
3. Hide n Seek (me :-) ) 1398
4. Parkhaus (AnkStone) 1354
5. BF02 (Atan) 905

And these are only the downloads over THIS particular server. So you might imageine how many ppl really still play D3 :-]

If you want to build "good" levels and want to know, how to to this, I would give you the same hint as Floyd did. Check out gameedit first.
Maybe you may find something on planetdescent und surely something on [uk]robo's website.

At the first time you don't need DALLAS or the SDK. You can do very much with the editor (the BETA version from otherone or the "(A)tan version").
I saw a thread some days before, where some level designers offered their contact infos to help guys like you.

So I wish you nmuch fun with building levels - and think about it: save often! because the editor uses to crash sometimes :-/

Greetz, Diti
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Re: D3Edit Revisited

Post by Kyouryuu »

Resilient wrote:My first questionâ??my main reason for postingâ??is: Does anyone have any tips they'd like to share?
Map your level beforehand. Don't just dive into the editor without a plan. It's sort of like programming. If you want to code a substantial program, you could just dive right into the development studio and hammer something out. But then what if you needed to add new functionality you didn't anticipate earlier? What if suddenly you had this new idea, but couldn't get the right variables where you want them? You have to plan ahead, especially in object-oriented programming, and think about how to abstract things apart. Otherwise, you wind up with a hardcoded ugly mishmash of disposable code.

So experiment on paper first. Maybe even graph paper since unlined paper has a weird way of "warping" impossible corridors. Draw in little overhead details as you see fit, and try to envision the whole map in your mind before you start.

Once you've got a plan, there are a couple ways you can go about completing it:

- One step at a time
Some people, including myself, like to design one room at a time and essentially complete that room before progressing onto the next one. A drawback to this approach is that you had better be certain your plan is going to work cohesively. It's unfortunate when you've spent all your time on a handful of rooms only to suddenly realize they don't line up in the big picture.

- Blocking it out
This is a very common practice in UnrealEd, which treats the level as a whole entity, rather than how D3Edit handles it on a per-room basis. You basically just design the outer shell of the whole map, ignoring lights and superfluous details. Then, you can fly around in it, trying to get a taste for what the map is going to play and feel like, and if your design works in 3D or not. Once you're satisfied, then you can go back and fill in all of those details.
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Post by Darkside Heartless »

If you need help but gameedit dosn't have what you need, try these guys. phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1058
If they can't help, well you're on your own :( but that shouldn't happen too often
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Post by Resilient »

Thanks for all the responses everyone. :)

Diti said: "Check out GameEdit first. Maybe you may find something on PlanetDescent und surely something on [uk]robo's web site." I've been looking at some of the stuff at GE and PD but haven't heard of [uk]robo. What's his URL?

Kyouryuu said: "Some people...like to design one room at a time and essentially complete that room before progressing onto the next one.... It's unfortunate when you've spent all your time on a handful of rooms only to suddenly realize they don't line up in the big picture." But can't you just design certain areas of your level (e.g. halls and tunnels) with room for flexibility? That way, if say the portals are off by just a couple of units, you can always lengthen/shorten/resize or whatever, right? And you won't have to trash any designs or sacrifice any detail. :) Correct me if I'm wrong; I am more than I'm not. :lol:

I found Atan's editor, I'm going to look at it and see what it's like. Thanks again for the advice. :)
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Diti
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Post by Diti »

Robo did "dodgeball". He had a site at supersonicrobo.com, but it doesnt seem to work at the moment. I have sent him a mail.

Diti
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Post by Skyalmian »

Hmm, this reminds me -- need to update the links page at GameEdit...
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Kyouryuu
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Post by Kyouryuu »

Resilient wrote:But can't you just design certain areas of your level (e.g. halls and tunnels) with room for flexibility?
Well you could have "expansion joints" like that, but that's just one more thing to fix and adjust. And you couldn't actually play the level with all of the rooms disconnected like that.
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Diti
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Post by Diti »

Archaeloidic wrote:Hmm, this reminds me -- need to update the links page at GameEdit...
good idea! :-)

Robo wrote me, that his site closed last x-mas. But he plans to get it online again. when? he doesn't know :-/

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Robo
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Post by Robo »

Hey guys, Diti just brought this to my attention.

My D3Edit site is http://www.planetdescent.com/d3edit. My other site is just a personal one :)

I'm planning to write a large bunch of new tutorials for this site, hopefully :)
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Post by Nightmare USA »

Game Edit Rocks! I love the tutorials there. I will be checking out your site Robo. D3 lives on and on... seems like. maybe it is just too unique to die, don't know...
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Post by Robo »

I think it is.

I have a design for a cool level drawn up. Planning to make it a really special one.
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Post by OnetoomanyDumplings »

Well, Resilient, if you want the opinion of a pretty new newb-ish sort of guy such as me, D3Edit isn't something to do "just for the hell of it". With what I've done so far with a level set I'm making, it's a heck of alot of work to do. But anyway... If you have any questions regarding the program, you could email me at mrtwibbles@hotmail.com. I know how to do pretty much every function. If you want help with some levels, I'd help out too, because I know how to do it, but I'm having some trouble thinking up ideas for levels...
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Post by Diti »

Kyouryuu wrote something about HOW you can work on a level. Sometimes is a mixture of them a good solution.
I prefer to build the main rooms (where the most action might take place) to see if they are too big or too small and if they geometry fits together. Then I start to make these rooms almost finished (omg, what English...).
Important: Have a look on the framerates (type: framelength when you are in D3). I had the bad luck last month as I was building a main room with about 3000 faces. Don't want discuss the framerate of this room...hehe....but I was forced to reduce it to 1000 faces to get a "good" framerate (imagine: you are not flying alone thru the level und sometimes you also wanna shoot a weapon ;-] )
No imagine: you have done the whole level and you test it THEN and you find out that the fps is below all meanings....

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Post by Resilient »

I'm not entirely new to level design, in any of the 3 Descents. I've created numerous levels (even uploaded a few) for D1/D2 (mostly D2). The sad part is, these levels had gotten lost over time, probably due to carelessness (forgetting to back-up my levels when I needed to reformat my drive or something). The good news is, some of the level designs are still in the back of my head.

I don't think anyone remembers what was probably my best D2 level (back then): Palmyra. It didn't get played nearly as much as some other levels... *cough* Minerva *cough* :P ...but those who did play it really enjoyed it. I would like to remake it at some point. In case anyone is wondering where I got the name... Palmyra is the name of a small town near me and I thought the name sounded good for a level. :) Upon choosing that name, I looked it up in my encyclopedia for any meaning (you know, didn't want it to be offensive or anything). *shrug* :roll: Dictionary.com says Palmyra was "an ancient city of central Syria northeast of Damascus. Said to have been built by Solomon, it prospered under the Romans until it was partially destroyed by the emperor Aurelian after a people's revolt in A.D. 273."

Just like my half-done up-and-coming level, Common Ground (will have a D2 and D3 version), Palmyra had its own logo. I'll see if I can recreate that and post it here. :)
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