Disfunctional Muslim Male

[TheWhat]

and again I point to the teachings NOT the people. the Qur'an teaches violence against non-Muslims. Christ teaches to love your enemy.

Look everybody another bible scholar on tha intanet. Love thy enemy when I take their land and natural resources, enslave their children, and rape their women because I'm too ugly to get it. Yea, great track record you ghud hard american christians have. Put a sock in it no one believes you except the choir you are (not qualified) preaching to.

[CUDA]

and again I point to the teachings NOT the people. the Qur'an teaches violence against non-Muslims. Christ teaches to love your enemy.

Look everybody another bible scholar on tha intanet.Love thy enemy when I take their land and natural resources, enslave their children, and rape their women because I'm too ugly to get it. Yea, great track record you ghud hard american christians have. Put a sock in it no one believes you except the choir you are (not qualified) preaching to.

well since your not able to understand the point where you separate the people from the teaching, you'll just need to wallow in your ignorance.

Definition of SCHOLAR
1
: a person who attends a school or studies under a teacher : pupil
2
a : a person who has done advanced study in a special field b : a learned person

yep I fit that definition. I have studied under teachers and I have done advanced studies in this field. so I guess that does make me a scholar and qualified to discuss Biblical issues. and what exactly again are your qualifications to refute my position on my statements?

it's apparently OBVIOUS to everyone here that you add such insight to this discussion what would we do without you??

[Tunnelcat]

OK CUDA, how about these little Bible passages:

Lev. 20:10 - If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.

Ezek. 16:35 - Therefore, O whore, hear the word of the LORD:16:36 Thus says the Lord GOD, Because your lust was poured out and your nakedness uncovered in your whoring with your lovers, and because of all your abominable idols, and because of the blood of your children that you gave to them,16:37 therefore, I will gather all your lovers, with whom you took pleasure, all those you loved and all those you hated; I will gather them against you from all around, and will uncover your nakedness to them, so that they may see all your nakedness.16:38 I will judge you as women who commit adultery and shed blood are judged, and bring blood upon you in wrath and jealousy.16:39 I will deliver you into their hands, and they shall throw down your platform and break down your lofty places; they shall strip you of your clothes and take your beautiful objects and leave you naked and bare.16:40 They shall bring up a mob against you, and they shall stone you and cut you to pieces with their swords

Ezek. 23:43 - Then I said, Ah, she is worn out with adulteries, but they carry on their sexual acts with her.23:44 For they have gone in to her, as one goes in to a whore. Thus they went in to Oholah and to Oholibah, wanton women.23:45 But righteous judges shall declare them guilty of adultery and of bloodshed; because they are adulteresses and blood is on their hands.23:46 For thus says the Lord GOD: Bring up an assembly against them, and make them an object of terror and of plunder.23:47 The assembly shall stone them and with their swords they shall cut them down; they shall kill their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses.23:48 Thus will I put an end to lewdness in the land, so that all women may take warning and not commit lewdness as you have done.23:49 They shall repay you for your lewdness, and you shall bear the penalty for your sinful idolatry; and you shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

Matt 5:27 - "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into hell.5:31 "It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’5:32 But I say to you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

So if we followed the Bible, even partly to the letter, every man and woman who commits adultery in this country should be stoned to death as punishment. That includes a man even LOOKING at another women in a "lustful" manner. But apparently, Jesus was the game changer in the Bible, so I do give him credit for changing previously draconian Wrath of God Bible justice.

John 8:3 - The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery; and making her stand before all of them,8:4 they said to him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery.8:5 Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"8:6 They said this to test him, so that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground.8:7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

So which part of the Bible is correct morally? Before or after Jesus' time? Some passages are popular from before Jesus, some from after, and are intermixed frequently today in politics and law. I've noticed that many Christians like to pick and choose which passages to follow, or to use when railing against others. And I've really noticed that Bible seems to blame women quite a bit for the sinful thoughts and actions of men. Well, I suppose that since Eve ate the apple first, it's her fault that all men are evil and all women are MORE evil. Does God really hate women that much and do men use that as an excuse to vilify and subjugate women?

[Nightshade]

I've noticed that many Christians like to pick and choose which passages to follow,

At the very least, Christians seem to have more of a choice in what to follow and quote from the Bible. "Devout muslims" do not. If a hadith (narrative in the qur’an) is more recent and addresses the same issue as a previous hadith does, the latter is valid and not the former. This is true of the newer and most violent and hateful passages of the qur’an.

Does God really hate women that much and do men use that as an excuse to vilify and subjugate women?

It is always interesting that man has decided to create a god that hates (as well as "loves".) If you were a god, why would you create or allow anything that you hate to exist?

[SilverFJ]

OK CUDA, how about these little Bible passages:

Lev. 20:10 - If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.

Ezek. 16:35 - Therefore, O whore, hear the word of the LORD:16:36 Thus says the Lord GOD, Because your lust was poured out and your nakedness uncovered in your whoring with your lovers, and because of all your abominable idols, and because of the blood of your children that you gave to them,16:37 therefore, I will gather all your lovers, with whom you took pleasure, all those you loved and all those you hated; I will gather them against you from all around, and will uncover your nakedness to them, so that they may see all your nakedness.16:38 I will judge you as women who commit adultery and shed blood are judged, and bring blood upon you in wrath and jealousy.16:39 I will deliver you into their hands, and they shall throw down your platform and break down your lofty places; they shall strip you of your clothes and take your beautiful objects and leave you naked and bare.16:40 They shall bring up a mob against you, and they shall stone you and cut you to pieces with their swords

Ezek. 23:43 - Then I said, Ah, she is worn out with adulteries, but they carry on their sexual acts with her.23:44 For they have gone in to her, as one goes in to a whore. Thus they went in to Oholah and to Oholibah, wanton women.23:45 But righteous judges shall declare them guilty of adultery and of bloodshed; because they are adulteresses and blood is on their hands.23:46 For thus says the Lord GOD: Bring up an assembly against them, and make them an object of terror and of plunder.23:47 The assembly shall stone them and with their swords they shall cut them down; they shall kill their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses.23:48 Thus will I put an end to lewdness in the land, so that all women may take warning and not commit lewdness as you have done.23:49 They shall repay you for your lewdness, and you shall bear the penalty for your sinful idolatry; and you shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

Matt 5:27 - "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into hell.5:31 "It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’5:32 But I say to you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

So if we followed the Bible, even partly to the letter, every man and woman who commits adultery in this country should be stoned to death as punishment. That includes a man even LOOKING at another women in a "lustful" manner. But apparently, Jesus was the game changer in the Bible, so I do give him credit for changing previously draconian Wrath of God Bible justice.

Pre-Jesus isn't Christianity. Blame ancient Jewish culture for those tresspasses against humanity. The Old Testiment is a historical record of how God laid the groundwork for the coming of Christ, and examples of how men succeeded and failed in the eyes of God. I believe the main reason for the incorperation of the Old Testiment is to show that God the Father is no peace-hippie, he's the creator and he's gunna have his way.

Also, there's a lot of debate about that passage in Matthew, but I tend to side with the argument that it is more figurative than anything, or, "It's better to cut your hands off than sin with them".

lol, and how good of you to give Jesus credit. I'm sure he'd high-five you any day.

[SilverFJ]

It is always interesting that man has decided to create a god that hates (as well as "loves".) If you were a god, why would you create or allow anything that you hate to exist?

To give humanity a freedom of choice. But then again this might side-track this issue into some kind of Calvinist debate that will never be concluded.

[CUDA]

So if we followed the Bible, even partly to the letter, every man and woman who commits adultery in this country should be stoned to death as punishment. That includes a man even LOOKING at another women in a "lustful" manner. But apparently, Jesus was the game changer in the Bible, so I do give him credit for changing previously draconian Wrath of God Bible justice.

this is where your lack of understanding of the bible comes in. Christ WAS a game changer John proves it, and you point it out.

John 8:3 - The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery; and making her stand before all of them,8:4 they said to him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery.8:5 Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"8:6 They said this to test him, so that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground.8:7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

now here is the rest of the verse.

8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Christ did not condemn the woman for her Sins (adultery). which he could have done. and by doing so he also pointed out to the Pharisee's that they were sinners themselves. what Christ did do was tell her to stop sinning. to effectually live a sinless life

John 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

if we are to follow Christs example we need to STOP judging others.

I've noticed that many Christians like to pick and choose which passages to follow, or to use when railing against others.

there in lies the problem. it's not the scriptures. its the people who "pick and chose" and apply those scriptures for their own selfish gratification. you could justify anything you want to do in this world or condemn anyone in this world for your perceived opinion of their sins (self gratification) by Picking and choosing scriptures a verse at a time.

And I've really noticed that Bible seems to blame women quite a bit for the sinful thoughts and actions of men. Well, I suppose that since Eve ate the apple first, it's her fault that all men are evil and all women are MORE evil. Does God really hate women that much and do men use that as an excuse to vilify and subjugate women?

I find that it blames ALL for their sinful ways.

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

sounds like he's talking to the men there.

10 Who can find a virtuous woman?

For her price is far above rubies.
11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her,
so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12 She will do him good and not evil
all the days of her life.
13 She seeketh wool, and flax,
and worketh willingly with her hands.
14 She is like the merchants' ships;
she bringeth her food from afar.
15 She riseth also while it is yet night,
and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it:
with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17 She girdeth her loins with strength,
and strengtheneth her arms.
18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good:
her candle goeth not out by night.
19 She layeth her hands to the spindle,
and her hands hold the distaff.
20 She stretcheth our her hand to the poor;
yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household:
for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry;
her clothing is silk and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates,
when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it;
and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
25 Strength and honor are her clothing;
and she shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom;
and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She looketh well to the ways of her household,
and eateth not the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praiseth her.
29 Many daughters have done virtuously,
but thou excellest them all.
30 Favor is deceitful, and beauty is vain:
but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands;
and let her own works praise her in the gates.

that sounds like high praise of a Woman to me

and again it's your understanding of the scriptures that gives you the false impression that God hates women. using your reference to Eve, Women are to be subject to man because of her, 1st because Eve was from Adam. hence Woman or of man as the word translates, and 2nd in the Garden of Eden Eve was deceived by the serpent, Adam was not. Adam made a choice. all be it a poor one. that is why Man is the head of Woman Biblical

[Foil]

I've noticed that many Christians like to pick and choose which passages to follow, or to use when railing against others.

there in lies the problem. it's not the scriptures. its the people who "pick and chose" and apply those scriptures

Ah, there we are!! The crux of the original topic:

Are the problems with the scriptures themselves, or the way they are interpreted/applied?

----------

Honestly, I'm hearing a lot of inconsistency about this lately.

If someone says, "the problem with Islamic violence is the Qur'an", they cannot turn around and say, "the problems with Christianity are the people, not the scriptures."

If someone says, "the problem with Islamic violence is the culture, not the Qur'an", they cannot turn around and criticize Christianity solely on the basis of it's scriptures.

...It just doesn't work.

----------

Personally: I see scripture as a fundamental starting point for a given religious belief system, but the end result really depends largely on the lens a given group/culture sees those scriptures through. Thus while I won't say the scriptures aren't the problem (they certainly can be), I think it's a huge mistake to dismiss the cultural/denominational forces at work.

[CUDA]

I've noticed that many Christians like to pick and choose which passages to follow, or to use when railing against others.

there in lies the problem. it's not the scriptures. its the people who "pick and chose" and apply those scriptures

Ah, there we are!! The crux of the original topic:

Are the problems with the scriptures themselves, or the way they are interpreted/applied?

----------

Honestly, I'm hearing a lot of inconsistency about this lately.

If someone says, "the problem with Islamic violence is the Qur'an", they cannot turn around and say, "the problems with Christianity are the people, not the scriptures."

If someone says, "the problem with Islamic violence is the culture, not the Qur'an", they cannot turn around and criticize Christianity solely on the basis of it's scriptures.

...It just doesn't work.

Agreed "IF" you take it one verse at a time. In the Qur'an there are 164 verses that call for jihad or to kill the infidel. that gives you pretty high odds of some one "misinterpreting" it's teachings and acting out Jihad or Killing the Infidel.

Christ never called for anyone to be killed. in fact it was the exact opposite
so I would find it hard to equate a Muslim calling for Jihad a mistake, or the picking and choosing of a verse to justify jihad a mistake, with a Christian calling for someones killing. Christ just did not teach it or even say it.

----------

Personally: I see scripture as a fundamental starting point for a given religious belief system, but the end result really depends largely on the lens a given group/culture sees those scriptures through. Thus while I won't say the scriptures aren't the problem (they certainly can be), I think it's a huge mistake to dismiss the cultural/denominational forces at work.

that's it why I personally believe that a religious belief system is a stone around a swimmers neck. Christ did not say let me tell you how to live a sinless life. on the contrary 157 times he says Follow me, or to paraphrase, follow my examples and I will show you how it's done

[Nightshade]

Honestly, I'm hearing a lot of inconsistency about this lately.

If someone says, "the problem with Islamic violence is the Qur'an", they cannot turn around and say, "the problems with Christianity are the people, not the scriptures."

If someone says, "the problem with Islamic violence is the culture, not the Qur'an", they cannot turn around and criticize Christianity solely on the basis of it's scriptures.

...It just doesn't work.

Foil-

RELIGION doesn't work.

Although a lot of you prefer to think there is a perfect deity out there, the letters (in either the qu'ran or the Bible) were written by man and not said "perfect" deity. Man's religions are based upon those writings and not the word of "God." Yes yes yes, I know you could say they are 'interpretations' of the perfect word of "God" but why are they so emotional (to the point of psychotic or bipolar EXTREME) and erratic? God's intentions should be in there somewhere- and why would he have to change his mind? He's perfect- he should get it right the first time every time.

Most muslims are like most catholics. They don't follow the letter of the hadith or sunnah at all times- and hypocrisy drips from all of them-

BUT the "devout" muslims will use it to justify their jihad (rape, pillage and murder) against the infidel.

Catholics aren't out there using the bible (these days) to justify any violence against anyone.

[Tunnelcat]

Pre-Jesus isn't Christianity. Blame ancient Jewish culture for those tresspasses against humanity. The Old Testiment is a historical record of how God laid the groundwork for the coming of Christ, and examples of how men succeeded and failed in the eyes of God. I believe the main reason for the incorperation of the Old Testiment is to show that God the Father is no peace-hippie, he's the creator and he's gunna have his way.

Also, there's a lot of debate about that passage in Matthew, but I tend to side with the argument that it is more figurative than anything, or, "It's better to cut your hands off than sin with them".

lol, and how good of you to give Jesus credit. I'm sure he'd high-five you any day.

Well, why don't Christians separate themselves from the Old Testament then? I've noticed that it's still got some very popular passages that many Christians like to use or quote, like from Genesis and Exodus. And if any passage can be construed as "figurative", why are some others given a written in stone treatment? As for Jesus, he was definitely different from anything before him. I just don't take to Christians telling me that I'm going to Hell if I don't embrace him fully. They don't know squat.

As for God in the Old Testament, to Him, women were second class sinners of the lowest kind or worse, so He's not my God. If Jesus is God, God must have taken a good dose of Xanax or Mary Jane in the New Testament. I find that paradox or explanation a little hard to swallow.

[Nightshade]

As for God in the Old Testament, to Him, women were second class sinners of the lowest kind or worse, so He's not my God. If Jesus is God, God must have taken a good dose of Xanax or Mary Jane in the New Testament. I find that paradox or explanation a little hard to swallow.

You got it TC. If the bible is the word of God, he's as imperfect as the words in it. Why would he change just for ants like us?

Real reason? Men made up God. (Or at least the God written about in the bible.)

What's funny is that in the Qur'an, Allah is a bloodthirsty deity that seems to want to rely on humans to kill or dominate each other in his name.

[CUDA]

TC if you wish to discuss it I'll be happy to give you my PH# just PM me. it is not an easy thing to explain on the net and would take up too much band with to do so properly.