Prophecy and fulfillment in the Bible [Thread Split]

[Tunnelcat]

Sorry CUDA, there is absolutely no explanation that would ever satisfy me about all the contradictions in the Bible, and why God is different between the Old and New Testaments. Jesus I do support, for his thinking is much more common sense and rational, but I'm too much of a realist, and the Bible was written by uneducated, unscientific people back in superstitious times and I can't take it as fact, only as a parable. Even the parts concerning Jesus that are constantly thrown at us by Evangelicals were written hundreds of years after His death, so that is not reliable either.

Only until either I die, and find out what happens then, or God comes to me before that happens and speaks the Truth to me, will I finally have my answers. I also think that most Muslims are still living in past, during the violent times before the New Testament, and still have yet to modernize their thinking. That's their problem, and unfortunately, ours now.

[CUDA]

Sorry CUDA, there is absolutely no explanation that would ever satisfy me about all the contradictions in the Bible, and why God is different between the Old and New Testaments. Jesus I do support, for his thinking is much more common sense and rational, but I'm too much of a realist, and the Bible was written by uneducated, unscientific people back in superstitious times and I can't take it as fact, only as a parable. Even the parts concerning Jesus that are constantly thrown at us by Evangelicals were written hundreds of years after His death, so that is not reliable either.

Only until either I die, and find out what happens then, or God comes to me before that happens and speaks the Truth to me, will I finally have my answers. I also think that most Muslims are still living in past, during the violent times before the New Testament, and still have yet to modernize their thinking. That's their problem, and unfortunately, ours now.

I'm sorry you feel that way.
Actually when you take the time study the scriptures, you realize there is quite a harmony about them all be it complex and yet at the same time a simple one. and there are really no contradictions in them, once you learn how to read them. if you ever change your mind the offer still stands

[Bet51987]

.

[CUDA]

Cuda, the harmony in the inconsistencies of the bible are merely clever interpretations by those trained in teaching the masses and the world is full of them. When they fail at being clever, or when science shows that a particular event has has no evidence to support it, it suddenly reinterprets from literal to figurative.

Bee

when you learn to read and understand God's word there is a definite symmetry to it. again my offer stands. if you are not willing to attempt to understand, then anything that I say here will not convince you because once a mind is closed to something trying to pry it apart us usually pointless.

[Tunnelcat]

Actually when you take the time study the scriptures, you realize there is quite a harmony about them all be it complex and yet at the same time a simple one. and there are really no contradictions in them, once you learn how to read them. if you ever change your mind the offer still stands

Oh, the Bible is harmonious and complex, it's just that science contradicts the Bible, and I'm more inclined to believe in the scientific record. No amount of fudging is going to fix that. Don't get me wrong, I believe that Jesus lived and founded a whole new religion with His teachings. And Bee, I also look up to Him as well, for many should live by his words. Pure goodness should never be put down. I just don't aspire to Him as being God, or that He died for my sins, even though I believe that some higher being does exist. I also believe the Bible has been transcribed and altered over the centuries to the point that it no longer matches the meaning of the original authors. Much of it was transcribed during the Middle Ages, a dark and superstitious period in human history. Every Pope and Scribe had their opinions of what things meant.

But I do believe that His teachings were exceptional, far different from those prophets before Him. Of course there were others, but Jesus broke the mold. But the evangelical devotion to Jesus just seems to be a cheap ticket for most humans to go out and sin, then later on, embrace and thank Jesus for saving them when they decide to turn to Him for salvation as a way to wipe their slates clean. I also don't like evangelicals throwing Jesus in my face and saying I'm going to Hell if I don't find and except Him. They should keep their opinions to themselves. I'm of the opinion that if one screws up in life, one must take responsibility and pay the piper in the end, whatever that ends up being.

I know you are sincere in your beliefs CUDA, and I don't want to marginalize or put down that aspect of your life. It's a free country and everyone should be able to believe in what they want to believe. This is NOT a completely Christian Nation and I'm really tired of that moniker. There are others of different stripes out there that are happy just as they are. If you think I'm going to Hell for not embracing Jesus, that's your belief. It's troubles me when religious social pressures makes it difficult for those that have opposing beliefs to live in peace as equal members of society, not looked upon as candidates for conversion.

[CUDA]

Oh, the Bible is harmonious and complex, it's just that science contradicts the Bible

the Bible didn't stop at Genesis, people need to read past the first chapter. but this is a different discussion.

I also look up to Him as well, for many should live by his words. Pure goodness should never be put down.

so you look up to a man that if he was not who he said he is, was a liar and a fraud?? and if he was both of those then how can you claim he was Pure goodness??? if find that remarkable.

I just don't aspire to Him as being God, or that He died for my sins, even though I believe that some higher being does exist.

and yet Christ claimed to be God and that he would be slain for the sins of the world.
Christ was Crucified, the old testament foretold it, Christ foretold it. Roman documents and History confirms it.

I also believe the Bible has been transcribed and altered over the centuries to the point that it no longer matches the meaning of the original authors.

and you have evidence to back this up?? because it seems the dead sea scrolls when found, were outside of some language translational changes, an exact interpretation of the Hebrew Bible (old Testament) and they were written between 150 BC and 50 AD. So you might wish to rethink your "feelings" on the matter

I know you are sincere in your beliefs CUDA, and I don't want to marginalize or put down that aspect of your life. It's a free country and everyone should be able to believe in what they want to believe.

TC your not hurting my feelings if you don't agree with me. that is your Choice. and I agree. this is a free country and that people should be able to believe how they choose believe. but make no mistake your choices in life do have consequences, and everyone will be held accountable in the end. you also need to bear in mind that there are hateful people on both sides that try to force their beliefs on each other, and ridicule each other for what they believe. there are members of this board that do just that. one of them posting in this very thread. they don't want to be tolerant of the others way of thinking, they don't even wish to understand the others way of thinking. they just want to make themselves feel bigger by calling others names. thank you for not taking that approach.
I love a spirited debate, it challenges be and makes me analyze why I believe what I believe everyday.

and my offer still stands

[null0010]

Christ was Crucified .... Roman documents and History confirms it.

citation needed

[CUDA]

Christ was Crucified .... Roman documents and History confirms it.

citation needed

Try here

Adam, Karl (1933). Jesus Christus. Augsburg: Haas.
Adam, Karl (1934). The Son of God (English ed.). London: Sheed and Ward.
Brown, Raymond E. (1997) An Introduction to the New Testament. Doubleday ISBN 0-385-24767-2
Daniel Boyarin (2004). Border Lines. The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity. University of Pennsylvania Press.
Doherty, Earl (1999). The Jesus Puzzle. Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? : Challenging the Existence of an Historical Jesus. ISBN 0-9686014-0-5
Drews, Arthur & Burns, C. Deslisle (1998). The Christ Myth (Westminster College-Oxford Classics in the Study of Religion). ISBN 1-57392-190-4
Durant, Will (1944). Caesar and Christ, Simon & Schuster, ISBN 0-671-11500-6
Ehrman, Bart D. (1999). Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium. New York: Oxford. ISBN 0195124731.
Ehrman, Bart D. (2004). The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings. New York: Oxford. ISBN 0-19-515462-2.
Ellegård, Alvar Jesus – One Hundred Years Before Christ: A Study In Creative Mythology, (London 1999).
France, R.T. (2001). The Evidence for Jesus. Hodder & Stoughton.
Freke, Timothy & Gandy, Peter. The Jesus Mysteries - was the original Jesus a pagan god? ISBN 0-7225-3677-1
Fuller, Reginald H. (1965). The Foundations of New Testament Christology. Scribners. ISBN 0-684-15532-X.
George, Augustin & Grelot, Pierre (Eds.) (1992). Introducción Crítica al Nuevo Testamento. Herder. ISBN 84-254-1277-3
Koester, Helmut (1992). Ancient Christian Gospels. Harrisburg, PA: Continuum. ISBN 0334024501.
Grant, Michael, Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels, Scribner, 1995. ISBN 0-684-81867-1
Habermas, Gary R. (1996). The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ ISBN 0-89900-732-5
Leidner, Harold (1999). The Fabrication of the Christ Myth. ISBN 0-9677901-0-7
Meier, John P., A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Anchor Bible Reference Library, Doubleday

(1991), v. 1, The Roots of the Problem and the Person, ISBN 0-385-26425-9
(1994), v. 2, Mentor, Message, and Miracles, ISBN 0-385-46992-6
(2001), v. 3, Companions and Competitors, ISBN 0-385-46993-4
(2009), v. 4, Law and Love, ISBN 978-0300140965

Mendenhall, George E. (2001). Ancient Israel's Faith and History: An Introduction to the Bible in Context. ISBN 0-664-22313-3
Messori, Vittorio (1977). Jesus hypotheses. St Paul Publications. ISBN 0-85439-154-1
Miller, Robert J. Editor (1994) The Complete Gospels. Polebridge Press. ISBN 0-06-065587-9
Murphy, Catherine M. PhD. 2007. "The Historical Jesus for Dummies". ISBN 0470167858
New Oxford Annotated Bible with the Apocrypha, New Revised Standard Version. (1991) New York, Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-528356-2
Price, Robert M. (2000). Deconstructing Jesus. Amherst, N.Y.: Prometheus Books. ISBN 1-57392-758-9.
Price, Robert M. (2003). The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man: How Reliable is the Gospel Tradition?. Amherst, N.Y.: Prometheus Books. ISBN 1-59102-121-9.
Tacitus (2006), The Annals of Ancient Rome. Translated by Michael Grant and first published in this form in 1956. The Folio Society, 2006.
Voorst, Robert Van (2000). Jesus Outside of the New Testament. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.
Theissen, Gerd & Annette Merz. (1998). The Historical Jesus: A Comprehensive Guide. Fortress Press. ISBN 0800631226
Wells, George A. (1988). The Historical Evidence for Jesus. Prometheus Books. ISBN 0-87975-429-X
Wells, George A. (1998). The Jesus Myth. ISBN 0-8126-9392-2
Wells, George A. (2004). Can We Trust the New Testament?: Thoughts on the Reliability of Early Christian Testimony. ISBN 0-8126-9567-4
Wilson, Ian (2000). Jesus: The Evidence (1st ed.). Regnery Publishing.

[Ferno]

then you should also know that jesus wasn't really called jesus, was jewish and was brown.

[Sergeant Thorne]

That changes everything!

[SilverFJ]

Hell, the white Jesus was Hitler's doing.

[woodchip]

I wonder how Jesus would do on American Idol.

[CUDA]

I wonder how Jesus would do on American Idol.

I know as a Judge, he'd tell some of the contestants to go and sin no more

[SilverFJ]

I don't watch it, but I bet he could punch them in the throat and heal their terrible voices.

[Tunnelcat]

Oh, the Bible is harmonious and complex, it's just that science contradicts the Bible

the Bible didn't stop at Genesis, people need to read past the first chapter. but this is a different discussion.

Well, a lot of Christians believe the world STARTS at Genesis. That's one really big hit against reality there, unless God lied about how long it took to make the world, then covered it up with fable so we'd be clueless about how long it really took to make us, because all those old fossils we find must have just been earlier experiments with life before he did the important job of making humans. It doesn't make sense.

I also look up to Him as well, for many should live by his words. Pure goodness should never be put down.

so you look up to a man that if he was not who he said he is, was a liar and a fraud?? and if he was both of those then how can you claim he was Pure goodness??? if find that remarkable.

I didn't say he was a liar. I just don't have enough "proof" that he was actually God. Making a claim one can't prove is not necessarily a lie. If he believed what he was saying, then he thought it was the truth. And why can't a human being espouse "pure goodness"? Not all humans are born evil as Christians like to think. A lot of them are made.

I just don't aspire to Him as being God, or that He died for my sins, even though I believe that some higher being does exist.

and yet Christ claimed to be God and that he would be slain for the sins of the world.
Christ was Crucified, the old testament foretold it, Christ foretold it. Roman documents and History confirms it.

Oh, I don't deny he was crucified. That was the Roman punishment of choice for breaking certain laws. It's just that there is NO PROOF that he was resurrected. Of course he foretold his death, he was challenging centuries old Jewish doctrine and knew that he was ruffling powerful feathers. Nostradamus made many predictions that have come to pass, so was he God too?

I also believe the Bible has been transcribed and altered over the centuries to the point that it no longer matches the meaning of the original authors.

and you have evidence to back this up?? because it seems the dead sea scrolls when found, were outside of some language translational changes, an exact interpretation of the Hebrew Bible (old Testament) and they were written between 150 BC and 50 AD. So you might wish to rethink your "feelings" on the matter

The Bible has been very fluid through history, and is still being altered to fit modern norms and idioms today. You can't tell me that something hasn't been lost or changed in all those transcriptions throughout all this time. Opinions always influence what writers put down on paper, especially if they're trying to decide another author's meaning. Read any book and you'll get a whole range of what people thought a writer was trying to say in any review. Add to that trying to decide what someone meant in another language, thousands of years old at that, and you've got a nightmare figuring out what someone was originally trying to say.

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/issues/ ... ansbib.htm

I know you are sincere in your beliefs CUDA, and I don't want to marginalize or put down that aspect of your life. It's a free country and everyone should be able to believe in what they want to believe.

TC your not hurting my feelings if you don't agree with me. that is your Choice. and I agree. this is a free country and that people should be able to believe how they choose believe. but make no mistake your choices in life do have consequences, and everyone will be held accountable in the end. you also need to bear in mind that there are hateful people on both sides that try to force their beliefs on each other, and ridicule each other for what they believe. there are members of this board that do just that. one of them posting in this very thread. they don't want to be tolerant of the others way of thinking, they don't even wish to understand the others way of thinking. they just want to make themselves feel bigger by calling others names. thank you for not taking that approach.
I love a spirited debate, it challenges be and makes me analyze why I believe what I believe everyday.

and my offer still stands

Maybe we'll all be held accountable or maybe not. Maybe there is just a big fat NOTHING when we die, poof, bupkiss, nada, end of story. I don't even fear that possibility either. In fact, I'm tired, in pain much of the time and just worn out. I don't need anymore drama. But any human being just can't know what happens in the end. No one's come back to tell us, (unless one believes Jesus' words, and I don't). If there is a God, he must want it that way, or we'd all be committing suicide just to go to heaven before we sin and screw our chances. I've tried to live my life in a way that doesn't hurt others. In fact, I like to go out of my way to do good things for others when I can. Many times I've gotten burned or used in return, but that has never dissuaded me from doing the right thing. If I HAVE to also embrace Jesus against my beliefs, just to go to Heaven, even though I've tried to be a good person all my life and still all I've done wasn't good enough for God, then I guess my fate is what it is. What does scare me is if God, if there is a God, decided to recycle or reincarnate me BACK on earth. No thanks, once was really enough and things are not going to get better.

[Sergeant Thorne]

or we'd all be committing suicide just to go to heaven before we sin and screw our chances.

The Bible is clear that we are sinners by heredity. There are a lot of wrong ideas about Christianity floating around, and even being declared from the pulpits. By the age of 13, and in a Bible-believing home, I had to unlearn a lot of them largely because of my exposure to churches. A lot of you might be amazed to know what Christianity is all about, beyond all of the confusion and organized religion in our society.

[CUDA]

I just don't aspire to Him as being God, or that He died for my sins, even though I believe that some higher being does exist.

and yet Christ claimed to be God and that he would be slain for the sins of the world.
Christ was Crucified, the old testament foretold it, Christ foretold it. Roman documents and History confirms it.

Oh, I don't deny he was crucified. That was the Roman punishment of choice for breaking certain laws. It's just that there is NO PROOF that he was resurrected. Of course he foretold his death, he was challenging centuries old Jewish doctrine and knew that he was ruffling powerful feathers. Nostradamus made many predictions that have come to pass, so was he God too?

how accurate was Nostradamus in his prophecies? which were at best left to interpretation by the reader.
25%? 50%? 75%?
there were many that claimed to be God's prophets. Biblically if they were wrong once they were to be put to death. would Nostradamus pass the smell test??
now compare that to the Messianic prophecies that describe the coming of Christ. down the the town he was born in and the time of his coming. ALL that have come to pass have been accurately fulfilled and there are 365 of them, there are just a few remaining that have yet to pass.

I also believe the Bible has been transcribed and altered over the centuries to the point that it no longer matches the meaning of the original authors.

and you have evidence to back this up?? because it seems the dead sea scrolls when found, were outside of some language translational changes, an exact interpretation of the Hebrew Bible (old Testament) and they were written between 150 BC and 50 AD. So you might wish to rethink your "feelings" on the matter

The Bible has been very fluid through history, and is still being altered to fit modern norms and idioms today. You can't tell me that something hasn't been lost or changed in all those transcriptions throughout all this time. Opinions always influence what writers put down on paper, especially if they're trying to decide another author's meaning. Read any book and you'll get a whole range of what people thought a writer was trying to say in any review. Add to that trying to decide what someone meant in another language, thousands of years old at that, and you've got a nightmare figuring out what someone was originally trying to say.

you should go back and read your history of the Bible through the ages. it's not been until recently that we've had all these versions on it. infact I was reading the news the other day and they found an original version of the King James Bible in an old church in England dated from 1611 that was never meant to be put into circulation because it has two errors in if. TWO ERRORS and they pulled it from circulation.
the old Monks did not embellish the translations of the Bible. it was a deeply religious thing for them and they were accurate when they transcribed it.

I know you are sincere in your beliefs CUDA, and I don't want to marginalize or put down that aspect of your life. It's a free country and everyone should be able to believe in what they want to believe.

TC your not hurting my feelings if you don't agree with me. that is your Choice. and I agree. this is a free country and that people should be able to believe how they choose believe. but make no mistake your choices in life do have consequences, and everyone will be held accountable in the end. you also need to bear in mind that there are hateful people on both sides that try to force their beliefs on each other, and ridicule each other for what they believe. there are members of this board that do just that. one of them posting in this very thread. they don't want to be tolerant of the others way of thinking, they don't even wish to understand the others way of thinking. they just want to make themselves feel bigger by calling others names. thank you for not taking that approach.
I love a spirited debate, it challenges be and makes me analyze why I believe what I believe everyday.

and my offer still stands

Maybe we'll all be held accountable or maybe not. Maybe there is just a big fat NOTHING when we die, poof, bupkiss, nada, end of story. I don't even fear that possibility either. In fact, I'm tired, in pain much of the time and just worn out. I don't need anymore drama. But any human being just can't know what happens in the end. No one's come back to tell us, (unless one believes Jesus' words, and I don't). If there is a God, he must want it that way, or we'd all be committing suicide just to go to heaven before we sin and screw our chances. I've tried to live my life in a way that doesn't hurt others. In fact, I like to go out of my way to do good things for others when I can. Many times I've gotten burned or used in return, but that has never dissuaded me from doing the right thing. If I HAVE to also embrace Jesus against my beliefs, just to go to Heaven, even though I've tried to be a good person all my life and still all I've done wasn't good enough for God, then I guess my fate is what it is. What does scare me is if God, if there is a God, decided to recycle or reincarnate me BACK on earth. No thanks, once was really enough and things are not going to get better.

TC my intent is not to try and convert you. my intent is for you to have more information than you have. enough from BOTH sides to be able to truly seek the truth, and not what you've been taught is the truth.

[Tunnelcat]

The Bible is clear that we are sinners by heredity. There are a lot of wrong ideas about Christianity floating around, and even being declared from the pulpits. By the age of 13, and in a Bible-believing home, I had to unlearn a lot of them largely because of my exposure to churches. A lot of you might be amazed to know what Christianity is all about, beyond all of the confusion and organized religion in our society.

I don't believe that. If we are all evil by heredity, people would be labeled evil just by their association with certain traits or genetic conditions. I don't consider myself as evil either. But if God made us and we're born evil and God is perfect, why? Seems kind of counterproductive for an omnipotent being. Did he create Jesus just so he could save us as an afterthought to fix his mistake? The whole idea that someone was sent to "save us" is preposterous. Make us right in the first place, unless we're just a lab experiment that some omnipotent being is watching right now to see how it evolves.

CUDA, 'faith' in something is not 'truth' in something and truth can always be open for interpretation. As for the Messianic Prophecies, Judaism doesn't even believe that the Messianic Age has arrived yet. So who's truth is the truth? Christians or Jews? Also, if the Book of Genesis is untruthful, then the rest of the Bible is open to question.

[CUDA]

As for the Messianic Prophecies, Judaism doesn't even believe that the Messianic Age has arrived yet. So who's truth is the truth? Christians or Jews?

the Christians because it was Prophesied that the Jews would reject him


The Old Testament verses are the prophecy; the New Testament verses proclaim the fulfillment. Check them all out for yourself!

Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)
A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16)
Of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14)
Of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1)
Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)
Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15)
Herod´s killing of the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)
Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17)
Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3)
Would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35)
Would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21)
Would minister in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16)
Would cleanse the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13)
Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11)
Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9)
Would be rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)
Die a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving:

rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48)
betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18)
sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15)
silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14)
being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31)
beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26)
spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30)
piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)
being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)
given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36)
no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36)
buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)
casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24)

Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)
Ascend into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9)
Would sit down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)

[Ferno]

That changes everything!

It suggests that the bible may not be the end all be all historical text as a lot of people believe.

so yeah, it does change things a little.

TC: sending a saviour to rescue all of humanity isn't just counterproductive, it completely flies in the face of the belief that he's omnipotent.

It's like it played out like this:

"well, now i'm done making the heavens and earth and everything's just right. but those humans? oh i don't know. I might have messed up there. They've been slaughtering each other for a good while now, and the tablets I had written aren't really helping much. Aha! I know what I'm going to do! Hey son, you want to go to earth, be a mortal for thirty odd years, get tortured and crucified to help me out of this mess I made?"

[Sergeant Thorne]

So it doesn't really fly in the face of omnipotence, just your limited conception of what that should mean in reality.

Neither the non-English pronunciation of the name of Christ, nor his heredity, nor his skin color count against the Bible's accuracy as you seem to think.

[Jeff250]

The Old Testament verses are the prophecy; the New Testament verses proclaim the fulfillment. Check them all out for yourself!

Have you checked out any of these? Almost none of these mention any Messiah. At best, most are so vague and open to interpretation that they have plausible deniability--if you didn't believe the Messiah has come, you could easily say they were about something else. At worst, they seem intentionally taken out of context. A lot of them aren't even in future tense. If you're really a prophet, you don't have to be so vague and obtuse.

Also, you need an external source to verify prophecies. Otherwise, you're just using the Bible to prove the Bible.

Maybe you should cut this list down to one or two that you think are really persuasive.

you should go back and read your history of the Bible through the ages. it's not been until recently that we've had all these versions on it.

I assume TC meant manuscripts in the original language. As you go further back, New Testament manuscripts diverge from what people generally use today. See, for example, Alexandrian texts. The KJV was mostly based on the more recent Byzantine texts. You can argue whether or not the changes are relevant, or which manuscripts are right, but at the very least you have to disabuse yourself of the idea that the Bible manuscripts we use today are word-for-word the original.

[flip]

Here's one:

In the synoptic narrative, while Jesus is hanging on the cross, the sky is "darkened for 3 hours," from the sixth to the ninth hour (noon to mid-afternoon). Both Roman orator Julius Africanus and Christian theologian Origen refer to Greek historian Phlegon as having written "with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place"[123] Julius Africanus further refers to the writings of historian Thallus when denying the possibility of a solar eclipse: "This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day accord but an eclipse of the sun takes placing to the moon, and the passion of our Saviour falls on the day before the passover;e only when the moon comes under the sun."[124]stia A solar eclipse concurrent with a full moon is a scientific impossibility. Christiann apologist Tertullian wrote "In the same hour, too, the light of day was withdrawn, when the sun at the very time was in his meridian blaze. Those who were not aware that this had been predicted about Christ, no doubt thought it an eclipse. You yourselves have the account of the world-portent still in your archives."[125] The darkness was reported as far away as Heliopolis and apparently the unnatural occurrence was referred to by the Apostle Paul when converting Dionysius to Christianity.[126]

Here we have secular historians disputing over the darkness that is wrote about in the Gospels. The Christians were saying that the darkness that came over the land and the many earthquakes that happened at the same time were caused by God because of Jesus's death.
The historians disagree and say that it was simply an eclipse. All the sources quoted above all agree that there was darkness but disagree as to the cause. For the scientifically minded I thought this was interesting.

A solar eclipse concurrent with a full moon is a scientific impossibility.

Explain this with science.

[flip]

A little more information.

Phlegon's greatest work was the writing of a history book, called The Olympiades. The Olympiades can be used as a useful means of establishing a time-line.

We only have fragments left to us of this monumental work and quotations of it from other writers.
One such quotation is as follows, "In the 4th year of the 202nd Olympiad, there was a great eclipse of the Sun, greater than had ever been known before, for at the sixth hour the day was changed into night, and the stars were seen in the heavens. An earthquake occurred in Bythinia and overthrew a great part of the city of Nicæa."

Africanus quoted a section of Phlegon's work as follows: "During the time of Tiberius Cæsar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the Full Moon."

There is only one period of darkness lasting for three hours in the history of the world.

[CUDA]

The Old Testament verses are the prophecy; the New Testament verses proclaim the fulfillment. Check them all out for yourself!

Have you checked out any of these? Almost none of these mention any Messiah. At best, most are so vague and open to interpretation that they have plausible deniability--if you didn't believe the Messiah has come, you could easily say they were about something else. At worst, they seem intentionally taken out of context. A lot of them aren't even in future tense. If you're really a prophet, you don't have to be so vague and obtuse.

Also, you need an external source to verify prophecies. Otherwise, you're just using the Bible to prove the Bible.

Maybe you should cut this list down to one or two that you think are really persuasive.

Yep I've read everyone of them. some of them I see your point, if you lack an understanding of scriptures they might seem vague. but only on a few of them. I will trust the experts who for centuries have said that is what they mean. these are the scriptures and Prophesies that the Jews relied upon for the signs of the coming Messiah for 2000 years before Christ, so these date back to the original manuscripts.
The new Testament only shows where they were fulfilled by Christ. EVEN IF you questioned some of them. the Odds of one man fulfilling even half of them by accident is astronomical. read the following example base on only 8 of the 35 prophesies. and those 8 prophesies there is no doubt as to who they are referencing

1) “But thou, Bethlehem Epratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall He come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel: whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” (Micah 5:2) (Note: today the population of the earth is larger than the 2 billion figure used when Stoner made his model.) To arrive at the answer Stoner started with the average population of Bethlehem from the days of the prophet Micah to this present time and divided it by the average population of the earth for the same period. It was discovered that this ratio was 1 to 280,000. Since that time the earth has had an average population of 2,000,000,000. So the answer would be one man in 7,150/2,000,000,000 or one man in 2.8 X10 to the fifth power was born in Bethlehem.

2) “Behold I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me...” (Malachi 3:1) How many men who have been born in Bethlehem have had a forerunner sent by God to prepare his way? We will use the conservative estimate of 1 in 1,000 or 1 in 10 to the third power.

3) “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon...a colt the foal of an ass. ” (Zechariah 9:9) The question now becomes, “One man in how many, who was born in Bethlehem and had a forerunner, entered into Jerusalem as a king riding on the colt, the foal of an ass?” Because this question is too restrictive, we will broaden it to read, “One man in how many, who has entered Jerusalem as a ruler, has entered riding on a colt, the foal of an ass?” We will use 1 in 10 to the second power.

4) “And one shall say unto him, ‘What are these wounds in thine hands?’ Then he shall answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’” (Zechariah 13:6) One man in how many all over the world has been betrayed by a friend and as a result suffered wounds in his hands? We will use 1 in 10 to the third power.

5) “And I said unto them, ‘If ye think good, give me my price; and if no, forbear. So they weighed for my price, thirty pieces of silver.” (Zechariah 11:12) Of all the people who have suffered betrayal, how many have been betrayed for exactly thirty pieces of silver? We will use 1 in 1,000 or 1 in 10 to third power.


6) “And the Lord said unto me, ‘Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prized at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.” (Zechariah 11:13) This specifies that the price is not to be returned, but rather cast down in the house of the Lord. Then, without the person throwing them down doing anything, those to whom the silver was returned would have to give the silver to the potter. The reason the priests to whom the remorseful Judas returned the money he received from them to betray the Messiah did not put the funds back into the temple treasury was because it was not money obtained in a kosher, an appropriate way. There was a provision that the priests could spend discretionary funds to meet specific needs. The field they purchased from the potter was subsequently used as a cemetery for travelers and low income people. None of the students had ever heard of another incident involving all these criteria. So we used the estimate as 1 in 100,000 or 10 to the fifth power.

7) “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before the shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth” (Isaiah 53:7) What are the odds that an innocent man who has been betrayed, oppressed and afflicted and is on trial for his life will not offer a single word in his own defense?” We will use 1 in 1,000 or 1 in 10 to the third power.

“For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: the pierce my hands and my feet” (Psalm 22:16) When David wrote these words, death by crucifixion had yet to be invented. The question is, “One man in how many from the time of King David on, has been crucified?” (p. 105) We estimated that it would have been 1 in 10,000 or 1 in 10 to the fourth power.

Next, “If these estimates are considered fair, one man in how many men, the world over, will fulfill all eight prophecies? Let’s run the math. We have 1 in 2.8 X 100,000 X 1,000 X 100 X 1,000 X 1,000 X 100,000 X 1,000 X 10,000. This gives us 1 in 2.8 X 10 to the twenty-eighth power. Let us simplify it by calling it 1 X 10 to the twenty-eighth power. Written out we have 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.”

I never said they were word for word identical with the Original texts. obviously just in translation alone some words have no direct translation from language to language.

[Tunnelcat]

So it doesn't really fly in the face of omnipotence, just your limited conception of what that should mean in reality.

Neither the non-English pronunciation of the name of Christ, nor his heredity, nor his skin color count against the Bible's accuracy as you seem to think.

That brings up another little pet peeve of mine with Christians. In every image I've ever seen of Jesus, at least in the U.S., he is depicted as this radiant white male, not someone from the Middle Eastern region of the Mediterranean, which has a darker skinned population. Even the Virgin Mary is depicted as white. In fact, every different region of the world seems to depict Jesus as a member of their own race. Jesus was born a Jew, so he should appear as a Jew from that region. Remember this little scrap? Christians almost became apoplectic over the image. It may not be accurate either, but neither is "white". I'm just saying...

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... cs/1282186

CUDA, after doing a lot of thinking, I've changed my opinion and came to the conclusion that we are all born with some evil inside us. I too have some of this evil, because I sit here in the lap of luxury on my nice warm home with plenty of food, water, power, easy transportation and safety, all the while other people on the planet have no home, no food, no clean water, no security and are surrounded by war and death, and yet I'm not doing anything about it. In fact, I'm using more than my fair share just living in the U.S., by consuming more resources than the rest of the world, dumping more pollution than many other countries, and the government I helped elect is using my money to torture and kill others all over the planet in the name of national security and I'm not able to stop it. Where is the good in that? If there is a God, may he forgive my soul.

[CUDA]

That brings up another little pet peeve of mine with Christians. In every image I've ever seen of Jesus, at least in the U.S., he is depicted as this radiant white male, not someone from the Middle Eastern region of the Mediterranean, which has a darker skinned population. Even the Virgin Mary is depicted as white. In fact, every different region of the world seems to depict Jesus as a member of their own race. Jesus was born a Jew, so he should appear as a Jew from that region. Remember this little scrap? Christians almost became apoplectic over the image. It may not be accurate either, but neither is "white". I'm just saying...

thats because most of the images of Christ you see in our culture are based of the Shroud of Turin, white European people. but you are correct Christ was a dark skinned Jew

CUDA, after doing a lot of thinking, I've changed my opinion and came to the conclusion that we are all born with some evil inside us. I too have some of this evil, because I sit here in the lap of luxury on my nice warm home with plenty of food, water, power, easy transportation and safety, all the while other people on the planet have no home, no food, no clean water, no security and are surrounded by war and death, and yet I'm not doing anything about it. In fact, I'm using more than my fair share just living in the U.S., by consuming more resources than the rest of the world, dumping more pollution than many other countries, and the government I helped elect is using my money to torture and kill others all over the planet in the name of national security and I'm not able to stop it. Where is the good in that? If there is a God, may he forgive my soul.

TC, I of all people will not judge you as a sinner. I am as bad as anyone on this forum. I TRY to take my "selfishness" to a personal level. I look at how my actions affect the people I work with, my friends, my family and my Wife, for starters. I try to remember to Do whats right. not to be right.

If there is a God, may he forgive my soul.

There is. and Just Ask him,

[Jeff250]

Here we have secular historians disputing over the darkness that is wrote about in the Gospels.

Unless I missed one, none of these historians that you quoted are secular. Origen, Julius Africanus, and Tertullian are famous Christian authors whose lives were at least a century removed from the events in question.

EVEN IF you questioned some of them.

If there's lacking historical evidence for Jesus fulfilling them, then it's easy to question *all* of them, the same way that you question the non-historical miracles of any other religion.

if you lack an understanding of scriptures they might seem vague.

So then take me up on my offer. Pick your favorite one or two. Don't copy and paste the text from a Website, but actually take some time to satisfy my concerns. Show me e.g. how we know it has to be a prophecy instead of just a poem. Show me how e.g. we know it's messianic. Show me how there's no plausible deniability, e.g., how you couldn't say "oh that wasn't a messianic prophecy" if it never was fulfilled.

I never said they were word for word identical with the Original texts. obviously just in translation alone some words have no direct translation from language to language.

But in some cases, it's even worse than that. For instance, the Alexandrian texts don't have Mark 16:9-20, the resurrection, which is reflected in newer translations, who put the entire passage in italics to suggest that it is added language. I mean, that's kind of a biggie, isn't it?

[Tunnelcat]

The image on the Shroud of Turin is very vague. You could come up with almost any race from it's depiction. Most races like to think that Jesus looked like one of them anyway. I guess what bothers me is that many in the Christian Identity Movement (White Supremacists, the Aryan Nation and other hate groups) like to portray Jesus, Moses, Adam and Eve as of the white race and all other races are inferior because of that. They use of the image of Jesus (and the others) as "white" to justify and give credence to their hate propaganda.

If there is a God, may he forgive my soul.

There is. and Just Ask him.

That's too easy. Do your sinning and then get quick an' easy forgiveness by just asking Jesus for it. Bah. Never thought it made sense. Just like the Catholic Sacrament. One must be contrite, one must confess, one must make amends, then do penance. Many use it as a ticket to "remove" their sins, then they promptly go out and sin again, thinking all can be forgiven in the future. Many seem to forget the "do penance" and "make amends" parts. Too simple, convenient and lazy. What's to stop the whole cycle again? Maybe I'm simplifying things too much, but it all seems so transparent.

[CUDA]

The image on the Shroud of Turin is very vague. You could come up with almost any race from it's depiction. Most races like to think that Jesus looked like one of them anyway. I guess what bothers me is that many in the Christian Identity Movement (White Supremacists, the Aryan Nation and other hate groups) like to portray Jesus, Moses, Adam and Eve as of the white race and all other races are inferior because of that. They use of the image of Jesus (and the others) as "white" to justify and give credence to their hate propaganda.

and they would be wrong. this is how you tell a follower of Christ from someone who calls them self a Christian

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

If there is a God, may he forgive my soul.

There is. and Just Ask him.

That's too easy. Do your sinning and then get quick an' easy forgiveness by just asking Jesus for it. Bah. Never thought it made sense.

It is that easy. that's what makes it so beautiful. of course there is just a little more to it than that. there is the whole part of believing that Christ is God and he died for your sins and was resurrected.

Just like the Catholic Sacrament. One must be contrite, one must confess, one must make amends, then do penance. Many use it as a ticket to "remove" their sins, then they promptly go out and sin again, thinking all can be forgiven in the future. Many seem to forget the "do penance" and "make amends" parts. Too simple, convenient and lazy. What's to stop the whole cycle again? Maybe I'm simplifying things too much, but it all seems so transparent.

as for the Catholic rituals that's another topic that I will not touch in this thread

[Bet51987]

.

[Behemoth]

I haven't read the whole thing and i don't feel i need to in order to say this
There is no different interpretation of "Truth"
It's either THE truth or not truth at all, The fact that anyone could say such a thing just shows how far the world has declined in it's goal to find something better than ourselves, Thank God for faith.

[flip]

There is more historical evidence to support the three hour period of darkness, and therefore of the Crucifixion, in 33 AD than almost any other ancient event in history!

No, they are not all christians but they all were historians. Considering that the majority of them scoffed at the idea that it was caused by Christ's death and rather explained it as a solar eclipse would hardly make them christian advocates.

Phlegon of Tralles (Ancient Greek: Φλέγων) was a Greek writer and freedman of the emperor Hadrian, who lived in the 2nd century AD.
Lucian of Samosata (Greek: Λουκιανὸς ὁ Σαμοσατεύς, Latin: Lucianus Samosatensis; c. A.D. 125 – after A.D. 180) was an Assyrian rhetorician,[1] and satirist who wrote in the Greek language. He is noted for his witty and scoffing nature.

Thallus, a historian writing in AD. 52, wrote to deny any supernatural elements accompanying the Crucifixion . Though his writings are lost to us, we have the quotations of other later writers. The writing of Thallus shows that the facts of Jesus' death were known and discussed in Rome as early as the middle of the first century, to the extent that unbelievers like Thallus thought it necessary to explain the matter of the darkness as something natural. He took the existence of Christ for granted. Neither Jesus, nor the darkness at his death, were ever denied. At the time of his writing, unbelievers had already been explaining the darkness at the time of the Crucifixion as a purely natural phenomenon.

Phlegon of Tralles was a first century secular Greek historian born not long after the Crucifixion. He wrote an historical work called The Olympiades, which can be used to date the darkness at noon on the day of Crucifixion (see below).

Phlegon's work is referred to by Philipon, Julius Africanus, Joannes Philoponus, Malelas, Origen, Eusebius and Maximus.

The Crucifixion of Jesus was noted by Cornelius Tacitus who was a Roman historian, born around 52-54 A.D. Tacitus stated that Jesus had been crucified by Pontius Pilate, and that Rome was in darkness during the reign of Tiberius the Caesar in AD.33.

So, here are non-biblical sources all attesting to this as being a historical event. The earliest known to me at this time was wrote within 20 years of the event.

[Spidey]

That’s funny, I remember stating how “Semitic” the image of Christ was from that show, that fleshed out the shroud.

(in a thread, a little ways back)

[flip]

Another Jewish source, the Talmud, makes several historical references to Jesus. According to the American Heritage Dictionary, the Talmud is "the collection of ancient Rabbinic writings consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara, constituting the basis of religious authority for traditional Judaism." Although not explicitly referred to by name, later rabbis identify the person as Jesus. These references to Jesus are neither sympathetic to Him or His Church. Also these writings were preserved through the centuries by Jews, so Christians cannot be accused of tampering with the text.

The Talmud makes note of Jesus' miracles. No attempt is made to deny them, but it ascribes them to magical arts from Egypt. Also His crucifixion is dated as "on the eve of the Feast of the Passover" in agreement with the Gospel (Luke 22:1ff; John 19:31ff). Similar again to the Gospel (Matt. 27:51), the Talmud records the earthquake and the tearing in two of the Temple curtain during the time of Jesus' death. Josephus in his book, The Jewish War, also confirmed these events.

There's tons more but I hope this will be enough for you to satisfy my concerns also.

EDIT:Nope, no longer circular reasoning now.

[Jeff250]

No, they are not all christians but they all were historians. Considering that the majority of them scoffed at the idea that it was caused by Christ's death and rather explained it as a solar eclipse would hardly make them christian advocates.

I missed your reference to Phlegon in your second post. But Phlegon just says that there was a solar eclipse, which no one is denying happened.

To summarize everything introduced so far, we have:

• Surviving first century accounts
  • Phlegon, non-Christian historian, says the event was a solar eclipse
• Non-surviving first century accounts
  • Thallus, non-Christian historian, says the event was a solar eclipse
• Surviving second century accounts
  • Origen, Christian author, quotes Phlegon that the event was a solar eclipse
  • Julius Africanus, Christian apologetic historian, says that the historical record of the eclipse can't be right if we are to believe the calendar date given by the gospels
  • Tertullian, Christian apologist, says that the only reason why historians thought it was an eclipse was because they weren't aware enough of predictions about Jesus
• Others that you mentioned that I don't have quotes for and can't place yet
  • The Talmud
  • Lucian of Samosata
  • Cornelius Tacitus

Does this characterization so far seem fair? You're right in that there seems to be a lot of historical evidence for something like a solar eclipse, but so far, the rest about anything miraculous about it seems to have been speculation thrown on the bandwagon well after the fact.

[CUDA]

So then take me up on my offer. Pick your favorite one or two. Don't copy and paste the text from a Website, but actually take some time to satisfy my concerns. Show me e.g. how we know it has to be a prophecy instead of just a poem. Show me how e.g. we know it's messianic. Show me how there's no plausible deniability, e.g., how you couldn't say "oh that wasn't a messianic prophecy" if it never was fulfilled.

I already told you how we know they are Messianic Prophecies. do you have any Orthodox Jews friends? ask one of them. these are the Prophecies they they have been looking towards for 3000 years. it has been what has been taught to the Jews since the foundation of their faith from the time of Abraham. but unfortunately the Authors are not longer alive. as I can see that, that will be the only thing that will satisfy your want

Duet 18:15
The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.

God says I will raise up a prophet like me (God) from among the Jews

Isaiah 9:6
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.

hopefully these words speak for them self

Daniel 9:24-27 (New International Version, ©2011)

24 “Seventy ‘sevens’[a] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[c]

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[d] the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.[e] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[f] In the middle of the ‘seven’[g] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[h] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

this prophesy's the date that Christ will enter Jerusalem. I really don't know what you expect me to add to these. they are plain words that speak for them selves

Micah 5:2 (New International Version, ©2011)

2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”

where he will be born

if I need to go on I will, but these are pretty plain language

[flip]

Yes, and I appreciate it. At the same time I would like to confirm how many non-biblical sources also mention a great earthquake happening at the very same time also. The earthquake is what was supposed to cause the temple vail to split from the top down.
The Talmud supposedly does but I want to confirm that myself. I would also like to know for sure if a eclipse is possible or not during a full moon. If not, then the darkness that every one records has to be attributed to something else.

[flip]

God says I will raise up a prophet like me (God) from among the Jews

Sry Cuda got to take you to task on this one. Moses was referring to himself when he said "like me". In the sense as being a prophet and intercessor just as he was.

[CUDA]

...It is that easy. that's what makes it so beautiful. of course there is just a little more to it than that. there is the whole part of believing that Christ is God and he died for your sins and was resurrected.

According to the story that doesn't do it. It has to be true repentance to count. You can't do all the bad things in life while planning to repent when your time is up. It won't count in the eyes of the bible God.

And, as far as this.. There is. and Just Ask him. , you have to feel Him first.

Bee

Well Bee I chose not to go into great detail at this point. but you are correct. one would generally assume that if you believed that Christ was God, he died for your sins, and was raised from the dead on the 3rd day that you would have true repentance when you asked him to forgive your sins. "most" people don't ask for forgiveness for something they did unless they are truly repentant. there are of course exceptions.