Reforming Islam

[woodchip]

Is this better then:

"But young American Muslims - those under 30 - were more accepting of extremism. They were far more likely than their older counterparts to see themselves as Muslims first rather than as Americans first."

"Six percent of the U.S. Muslim population said suicide bombings were justifiable sometimes or always in defense of Islam, but among the young, the figure was 15 percent."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/world ... 28256.html

Not all of the article is gloomy tho:

"As a whole, the poll found a largely content and hard-working U.S. Muslim population, and one that is fast assimilating. Though 4 in 10 have arrived since 1990, a large proportion say their closest friends are non-Muslims. Their incomes are close to the national average. Even more than the general public, they say they believe that by working hard they can get ahead."

Imagine, working hard can get you ahead....what a novel concept.

[callmeslick]

I wonder how that differs from the numbers one would see on the assimilation of, say, the Italians or Chinese or Poles or Russians into American society. Thanks for posting the Times link, as it gives a more well-rounded view than a xenophobic nutjob down in Tennessee.

[Will Robinson]

...
For example, few seem to acknowledge that in practice, Islamic mosques are as widely variant in thinking as the imams which lead them. Likewise, the interpretation of Sharia is massively variant between different cultural groups. To simply state, Islam is this, or Mohommed was that, is merely a reflection of your upbringing, your culture and your biases. It is in no way factual or accurate, if you are suggesting that ALL Muslims think the same.

and what bias are you showing when you imply Islam and Christianity are analogous in the context of this discussion when you use quite a broad brush yourself to sweep away the key difference raised in the discussion between the two religious groups and their prophets. That difference being the violence perpetrated by the prophet Muhammad added with the violence promoted by numerous mosques compared to their counterparts in Christianity?!?

In the Christian world you have the Westboro Baptist church that comes close in venomous speech but no kills confirmed or even loosely attributed to it and as far as I've read no others. By contrast, in Islam, you have the Al Quds mosque in Hamburg where Muhammed Atta became transformed into a lead Sept.11th Islami-kazi pilot racking up close to 3000 dead and the events in that mosque are repeated throughout the world in other mosques...so rampant and inherent to the their culture that you have mobs of faithful Muslims dancing in the streets when the news is sent that america the infidel has been struck a deadly blow by their beloved martyrs!!

The difference between the two religions in the context of violence promoted and violence supported is so great that your attempt to brush it off as even remotely similar to the teachings and deeds of Christianity is absolutely ridiculous! the Islamo-fascists and their willful idiot followers are centuries behind in their growth toward a modern civilized progressive state capable of coexisting with those that don't believe in their god. They border on mental illness by comparison!
The fact that you had to close your weak argument with the disclaimer:
" if you are suggesting that ALL Muslims think the same."
...tells me you knew full well no one brought that to the discussion and your whole argument crumbles without it.

[Spidey]

Constantly comparing Islam to Christianity does this issue a great disservice, it’s about time the real problems were identified…that being radical Arabs and countries like Saudi Arabia, and not “Religion”.

But of course some people here seem to be enamored with that country, and or fear the oil loss if we started to point at the true heart of the troubles in the Muslim world.

[callmeslick]

and what bias are you showing when you imply Islam and Christianity are analogous in the context of this discussion when you use quite a broad brush yourself to sweep away the key difference raised in the discussion between the two religious groups and their prophets. That difference being the violence perpetrated by the prophet Muhammad added with the violence promoted by numerous mosques compared to their counterparts in Christianity?!?

actually, the only difference is that of where both cultures are on the time-line. Christianity was every bit as brutal, barbaric and senseless, if one observes things such as the Inquisition and Crusades. It speaks great volumes to the power of time to moderate and civilize the extremes of a religious movement. Bear in mind, Islam is a somewhat newer development, and took root in a part of the world that has been slower to develop, culturally(could one blame that lethargy on the religion? Maybe, but far from certain).

[callmeslick]

Constantly comparing Islam to Christianity does this issue a great disservice, it’s about time the real problems were identified…that being radical Arabs and countries like Saudi Arabia, and not “Religion”.

But of course some people here seem to be enamored with that country, and or fear the oil loss if we started to point at the true heart of the troubles in the Muslim world.

I agree with you completely, but the thread was about reforming Islam. You correctly identify that the issue is one of Arab and South Asian youth with poor education and virtually zero economic prospects. That their malaise gets converted or channelled into religious zeal, and such zeal being funded and tacitly supported by governments trying to divert from the real issues should be examined more critically. Perhaps a thread to that effect would be interesting.

[woodchip]

Bear in mind, Islam is a somewhat newer development, and took root in a part of the world that has been slower to develop, culturally(could one blame that lethargy on the religion? Maybe, but far from certain).

Slower?

"Persia was a cradle of science in earlier times. Persian scientists contributed to the current understanding of nature, medicine, mathematics, and philosophy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_an ... gy_in_Iran

Not exactly slower no? The question is how did the Muslim culture regress so badly ?

[callmeslick]

Bear in mind, Islam is a somewhat newer development, and took root in a part of the world that has been slower to develop, culturally(could one blame that lethargy on the religion? Maybe, but far from certain).

Slower?

"Persia was a cradle of science in earlier times. Persian scientists contributed to the current understanding of nature, medicine, mathematics, and philosophy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_an ... gy_in_Iran

Not exactly slower no? The question is how did the Muslim culture regress so badly ?

they didn't regress. They merely slowed progress vastly after the Crusades.

[woodchip]

Right. And the Taliban when they controlled Afghanistan were steering their country into a progressive and enlightened future.

[Will Robinson]

...

actually, the only difference is that of where both cultures are on the time-line. Christianity was every bit as brutal, barbaric and senseless, if one observes things such as the Inquisition and Crusades.... .

Well the failure of them to progress was kind of the main point behind my calling you out on your attempt to compare the two as similar. And you still seem to want to ignore a BIG difference which is the acts that Jesus supposedly carried out and promoted compared to the alleged acts and teachings of Muhammed. There is a wicked difference in the core fundamental message of one of the two that was always there so it isn't because of the timeline!! And just how many centuries do they need do you think with the example of the rest of the worlds cultures readily available for them to study?!? Call me a bigot if you must rationalize your position but I say after a few hundred years they don't get to play the 'We got here late' card... We all squirmed up out of the primordial soup together didn't we?

Consider where modern day Christian culture would be if Jesus had been preaching and practicing xenophobic, racist and misogynistic gospel and maybe the vast difference between the two you want so hard to make the same will reveal itself to you!!

No one likes to be thought of as prejudiced but discrimination isn't always a bad thing. We discriminate between the poisonous and benign varieties of mushrooms and with radical islam spreading danger the way they are we would do well to stop making excuses.

So your neighbor doesn't have much money and he has a lousy job. Don't tell him he's a loser when he talks to you about it, give him encouragement, sure, we all get that. But when a bunch of your neighbors tell you he's been coming around at night murdering and stealing don't tell me he's just down on his luck like we all were at one time!! That reaction isn't just misguided compassion, it's downright stupid and reckless. Maybe his wife and kids are all good people but HE has to go down right away and you are no less of a good person for saying so without trying to spare his feelings!!

[null0010]

Not exactly slower no? The question is how did the Muslim culture regress so badly ?

Ghenghis Khan destroyed the Great Library of Baghdad, for one.

[callmeslick]

Right. And the Taliban when they controlled Afghanistan were steering their country into a progressive and enlightened future.

hardly. But that is akin to certain strains of 'Conservatives' in the US who would take us back to the early Industrial Revolution or further. It's all relative. Let's face it, Afghanistan, in the rural areas, just wasn't all that advanced to begin with.

[callmeslick]

Consider where modern day Christian culture would be if Jesus had been preaching and practicing xenophobic, racist and misogynistic gospel and maybe the vast difference between the two you want so hard to make the same will reveal itself to you!!

actually, I shudder to think, after a lifetime of watching Christians(not ALL Christians, but some folks who thought themselves good Christians) practice and preach a xenophobic(let's burn the Koran! Whee!),
racist(nothing but white folks in the church I was raised in, in a town with separate white and 'colored' bathrooms and water fountains) and misogynistic(God hates fags!, so soldiers should die) gospel.
The key point is that your concern is over roughly 5-10% of all Muslims and all Islamic Imams, and yes, that is but an estimate. You, and others, tend to make it the whole message. And, IMO, if you aren't very well steeped in their religion, nor their culture and history, you are in no position to make such generalizations.

[Spidey]

Whata talkin bout, I seen Disney’s Aladdin and Prince of Persia.

(actually I haven’t)

[callmeslick]

Whata talkin bout, I seen Disney’s Aladdin and Prince of Persia.

(actually I haven’t)

well, then I won't spoil the endings for you.....

[SilverFJ]

Takes me a bit to get back on here, so I'll try to keep caught up

Consider where modern day Christian culture would be if Jesus had been preaching and practicing xenophobic, racist and misogynistic gospel and maybe the vast difference between the two you want so hard to make the same will reveal itself to you!!

actually, I shudder to think, after a lifetime of watching Christians(not ALL Christians, but some folks who thought themselves good Christians) practice and preach a xenophobic(let's burn the Koran! Whee!),
racist(nothing but white folks in the church I was raised in, in a town with separate white and 'colored' bathrooms and water fountains) and misogynistic(God hates fags!, so soldiers should die) gospel.
The key point is that your concern is over roughly 5-10% of all Muslims and all Islamic Imams, and yes, that is but an estimate. You, and others, tend to make it the whole message. And, IMO, if you aren't very well steeped in their religion, nor their culture and history, you are in no position to make such generalizations.

First of all, Koran burning is a peaceful demonstration. Being a racist is fine if you don't harrass or assault others because of it, you're free to think as you want. Jim Crowe laws were an abomination to a free America, but they were addressed and are gone now. "God Hates Fags"? Signs have killed as many people as guns have (none).

Comparing the Crusades to what we now know as Christianity is rediculous. It was so long ago and over with while Islamic terrorists are ravaging the world today.

In my own opinion I think that whether or not Christianity existed, the dark ages would've. It was about power and control. I think that's something not enough people think about. If religon never existed, there would still be war, there would still be power struggles and evil men. There would still be terrorists. Religon just gives the powerful a how and a way to control people like puppets. I believe, however, that Islam is inherently violent. I'm tired as hell and I don't want to go back and read who said it, but someone typed that it might not be Muslims, but just the fact that they're under-developed Arabs. This might be true, I'll never leave anything un-thought. If history had given the proper path, it might have been Wiccans that flew into the towers.

[woodchip]

Right. And the Taliban when they controlled Afghanistan were steering their country into a progressive and enlightened future.

hardly. But that is akin to certain strains of 'Conservatives' in the US who would take us back to the early Industrial Revolution or further.

I think you are confusing liberal environmentalist with conservatives.

[woodchip]

Consider where modern day Christian culture would be if Jesus had been preaching and practicing xenophobic, racist and misogynistic gospel and maybe the vast difference between the two you want so hard to make the same will reveal itself to you!!

actually, I shudder to think, after a lifetime of watching Christians(not ALL Christians, but some folks who thought themselves good Christians) practice and preach a xenophobic(let's burn the Koran! Whee!),
racist(nothing but white folks in the church I was raised in, in a town with separate white and 'colored' bathrooms and water fountains) and misogynistic(God hates fags!, so soldiers should die) gospel.

Yet we overcame all that and now have a "colored" man as leader of the country. Care to guess when a Christian
will become the leader in Iran, Afghanistan or any other middle eastern country?

[callmeslick]

I think you are confusing liberal environmentalist with conservatives.

no, I'm thinking conservatives...... ,back at ya!

[callmeslick]

Yet we overcame all that and now have a "colored" man as leader of the country. Care to guess when a Christian
will become the leader in Iran, Afghanistan or any other middle eastern country?

who knows? Turn that thought around, and go back a mere twenty years. Who would have thought a black man could become the US President? Heck, one could have found a goodly percentage that would have doubted in in February 2008. The point I'm trying to make with these comments is this: don't assume anything cannot happen, as history and events have a way of sneaking up and doing the unpredictable.
Oh, and I could see a Christian leader in Lebanon in the next election cycle, given the right circumstances.

[Krom]

Oh, and I could see a Christian leader in Lebanon in the next election cycle, given the right circumstances.

And the Pope might convert to spaghetti monster tomorrow.

I've been to the middle east and spoken with residents there about politics, I can assure you there will be no christian leaders in any middle eastern nation for the foreseeable future.

[callmeslick]

Oh, and I could see a Christian leader in Lebanon in the next election cycle, given the right circumstances.

And the Pope might convert to spaghetti monster tomorrow.

I've been to the middle east and spoken with residents there about politics, I can assure you there will be no christian leaders in any middle eastern nation for the foreseeable future.

um, by law the Lebanese president HAS to be Christian. The current one is. OK, my comment was sort of a trick, but thanks ever so much for demonstrating my underlying point: Most folks in the US base their view of the Middle East on assumptions and a complete lack of knowledge. Thus, your trips to the Middle East
(lemme guess, Israel, right?) didn't really serve to open your mind as much as you might wish to think they did, huh?

[Krom]

(lemme guess, Israel, right?)

Wrong. Try again.

[callmeslick]

I'm surprised, then, that someone didn't point out that Christians still exist in and in some cases take strong political roles in a few(very few, to be honest) Middle Eastern nations.



aside--wierd, on this board, how replies sometimes post before the comment to which they replied.
(originally, your Egypt explanation came up before my post).

[callmeslick]

(lemme guess, Israel, right?)

Wrong. Try again.

I'll take Egypt for 200, Alex.

[Krom]

Yeah, one of these days I'm going to switch the database backend and fix that... probably something with the database reaching almost 5 GB now (the actual size once you optimize and then compress it is about 60 MB).

[callmeslick]

well, I now clearly understand why YOU are the database master. I'll take your word on that explanation.

[Will Robinson]

Consider where modern day Christian culture would be if Jesus had been preaching and practicing xenophobic, racist and misogynistic gospel and maybe the vast difference between the two you want so hard to make the same will reveal itself to you!!

actually, I shudder to think, after a lifetime of watching Christians(not ALL Christians, but some folks who thought themselves good Christians) practice and preach a xenophobic(let's burn the Koran! Whee!),
racist(nothing but white folks in the church I was raised in, in a town with separate white and 'colored' bathrooms and water fountains) and misogynistic(God hates fags!, so soldiers should die) gospel.
The key point is that your concern is over roughly 5-10% of all Muslims and all Islamic Imams, and yes, that is but an estimate. You, and others, tend to make it the whole message. And, IMO, if you aren't very well steeped in their religion, nor their culture and history, you are in no position to make such generalizations.

The key point is you are still trying to make the two equal. with your "estimate" that only 5 to 10 percent exibit the characteristic I pointed out as evidence that their culture is thick with anti-infidel anti-female beliefs. I've read the school books from Saudi Arabian schools that teach these lessons. Is Saudi Arabia just a statistical anomolly and really the estimate you made still holds?!? Were all the people dancing in the streets of Libya and Syria and Yemen, etc. etc. celebrating the fall of the twin towers bussed into those neighborhoods to make it look like the ratio was much higher than 5-10%?!?!

But the big question if you only address one is:
Are all the Muslim women who are beaten by their husbands or fellow villagers for being a rape VICTIMS or smiling at men etc. the unbelievably unlucky target of the mere 5-10% of the population that roams the muslim population working like Santa's magic elves to deliver all the Sharia Law beatdowns that 90-95% of the crowd disapprove of?!?!? Hard to believe a mere 5-10% of the people could get away with sustaining all that in places full of citizens that aren't shy about kicking some ass!!

You have got to be frikken kidding me with the lame excuse making you are stooping to to prop up your Christianity is just as bad bullshiite that you keep smearing around in here!!

[callmeslick]

. I've read the school books from Saudi Arabian schools that teach these lessons. Is Saudi Arabia just a statistical anomolly and really the estimate you made still holds?!?

um,yes it does. I suspect what you cite are Wahabbi Sect texts, and that is but a small segment of Saudi Sunnis, and Saudi Arabia as a society includes Shi'ites as well. A lot of them, which soon could prove problematical.

Were all the people dancing in the streets of Libya and Syria and Yemen, etc. etc. celebrating the fall of the twin towers bussed into those neighborhoods to make it look like the ratio was much higher than 5-10%?!?!

I remember seeing groups of maybe a few hundred, dancing in nations of MILLIONS of citizens. I really don't see where bussing was the issue. Selective news coverage was more the problem.

But the big question if you only address one is:
Are all the Muslim women who are beaten by their husbands or fellow villagers for being a rape VICTIMS or smiling at men etc. the unbelievably unlucky target of the mere 5-10% of the population that roams the muslim population working like Santa's magic elves to deliver all the Sharia Law beatdowns that 90-95% of the crowd disapprove of?!?!? Hard to believe a mere 5-10% of the people could get away with sustaining all that in places full of citizens that aren't shy about kicking some ass!!

you are first off mixing up cultural issues with religious ones. Further, would you care to provide some believeable source numbers for the number of 'beatdowns' by region, relative to the numbers of practitioners of Islam in those regions. Then, maybe we could see something to break percentages down.

You have got to be frikken kidding me with the lame excuse making you are stooping to to prop up your Christianity is just as bad bullshiite that you keep smearing around in here!!

read it however you wish. I already stated, in pretty basic English, that I am clearly not calling either religion bad. On the contrary, I clearly stated that I felt that most practitioners of both religions were good. I don't think it would be me that is smearing anything, merely that you seem to have a problem with basic English comprehension.

[Foil]

<moderator hat>

Watch the personal jabs, guys. Keep it professional.

</moderator hat>

[callmeslick]

nice hat.
Sorry. I was getting frustrated having a statement twisted on me.

[Ferno]

nice hat.
Sorry. I was getting frustrated having a statement twisted on me.

yeah, that happens a lot around here.