Revenge is a Mother

[flip]

I guess he's talking solely on appearances and smooth talk, oh yeah, and great press. Because absolutely nothing changed with the changing of the guard, except the people were cheering again.

[Top Gun]

We were the laughingstocks of most of the rest of the planet for electing Bush to a second term. When Obama was elected, our standing in the world's eyes skyrocketed, and polls have shown that most countries still view us much more positively than they did four or five years ago. That's a big step forward in my book.

Oh, and there are little things like actually enacting a certain degree of healthcare reform, something presidents have been trying for decades with no success. Or pushing through a repeal of that Don't Ask Don't Tell bull★■◆●. Or carrying through what Bush started and helping our domestic auto industry avoid implosion. Or making a really ballsy correct call on how to handle taking down bin Laden. Oh, and he actually knows how to pronounce "nuclear," which is generally a plus.

[CUDA]

Oh, and there are little things like actually enacting a certain degree of healthcare reform, something presidents have been trying for decades with no success.

which will be declared Un-Constitutional and repealed. so still no success

Or pushing through a repeal of that Don't Ask Don't Tell ****.

which was implemented by a Democrat, but I do agree with the decision

Or carrying through what Bush started and helping our domestic auto industry avoid implosion.

which was a bad decision then and was a bad decision when Obama did it. and then he compounded it even further by spending another Trillion plus dollars that we couldn't afford to keep our economy going and to prevent unemployment from topping 8%. we see how well that worked huh.

Or making a really ballsy correct call on how to handle taking down bin Laden.

well at least he got something right. not that he really had a choice. he would have been crucified if he hadn't done it

Oh, and he actually knows how to pronounce "nuclear," which is generally a plus.

well at least Bush knew what Nuclear means even if he couldn't pronounce it. How Many states are there again?? you think you might wish to know that one if your going to be President. Just saying

[Will Robinson]

We were the laughingstocks of most of the rest of the planet for electing Bush to a second term. When Obama was elected, our standing in the world's eyes skyrocketed, and polls have shown that most countries still view us much more positively than they did four or five years ago. That's a big step forward in my book. . .

Show me those polls if you would please.
And lets check them for the before and after effect from when they reflect more than just electing the first black man to the job....you know, AFTER he's had a chance to do something to separate himself from Bush but didn't and tell me what "most of the countries" say now....then try again to support the notion he's delivered dignity to America!

[Lothar]

I don't get all the talk about Palin and her "charms". I mean, it's not like she's Heidi Klum or whoever the current supermodel of choice is. She doesn't appear in the SI Swimsuit edition, the Victorias Secret catalog, beauty pageants, or pornos. She's not some kind of super-hottie that makes guys want to go *ahem* pull the lever for her. She's just some lady with perhaps above average but not extraordinary looks. If somebody's gonna vote based on looks, would they really go for Palin?

She's not popular because of her looks. She's popular because she espouses a number of policies that certain people *really* like. She was immensely popular with a subset of conservatives prior to McCain selecting her. IMO it's been downhill from there, as she's demonstrated a very poor ability to deal with the media and therefore made herself unelectable. (Note that this doesn't make her an "idiot", it just makes her bad at interviews.) This also makes her a popular topic for liberal partisans, because she's easy to mock. Her looks are, at best, a minor factor -- and I suspect they hurt more than they help, because they play into the stereotype tunnelcat is pushing. When Biden says something dumb it's just a gaffe; when Palin says something dumb she's a bimbo. Which of course reinforces tunnelcat's wrong perception -- if she's a bimbo, obviously the only reason to vote for her is her looks.

[callmeslick]

We were the laughingstocks of most of the rest of the planet for electing Bush to a second term. When Obama was elected, our standing in the world's eyes skyrocketed, and polls have shown that most countries still view us much more positively than they did four or five years ago. That's a big step forward in my book.

Oh, and there are little things like actually enacting a certain degree of healthcare reform, something presidents have been trying for decades with no success. Or pushing through a repeal of that Don't Ask Don't Tell ****. Or carrying through what Bush started and helping our domestic auto industry avoid implosion. Or making a really ballsy correct call on how to handle taking down bin Laden. Oh, and he actually knows how to pronounce "nuclear," which is generally a plus.

sure, but what else has he done?

oh, and I notice no further mention of the swelling of pride we all feel whenever Palin bloviates.

[null0010]

sure, but what else has he done?

I always direct people who ask this question to this site.

[flip]

Oh, and there are little things like actually enacting a certain degree of healthcare reform, something presidents have been trying for decades with no success. Or pushing through a repeal of that Don't Ask Don't Tell ****. Or carrying through what Bush started and helping our domestic auto industry avoid implosion. Or making a really ballsy correct call on how to handle taking down bin Laden. Oh, and he actually knows how to pronounce "nuclear," which is generally a plus.

Lol, this is all you got? You don't expect much do you? So far, nothing has been done to address our current situation. Nothing of substance has changed and the direction still looks the same. A few policy changes nobody cares about , an opportunistic assassination at best and a health care act that made him look good but is sure to be repealed. Still, everyday our dollar loses bargaining power in the world market and that is gonna be the most essential element to our survivability and comfort in days to come. They really know how to rally the base though, even if they are full of ★■◆●.

[Top Gun]

I'm sort of curious as to how any president has historically been able to enact major economic reversals or job creation initiatives based on their sole actions. Protip: they haven't, and they can't. Anyone who thinks that a given president can snap their fingers and strengthen the US dollar (side note: the dollar being weaker actually carries some inherent advantages, at least over the short-term) or reverse unemployment trends is deluded. Obama doesn't have much more power to modernize the entirety of the American workforce than you or I do.

Oh, and there are little things like actually enacting a certain degree of healthcare reform, something presidents have been trying for decades with no success.

which will be declared Un-Constitutional and repealed. so still no success

I'd love to hear an explanation for how every aspect of healthcare reform is collectively unconstitutional.

which was a bad decision then and was a bad decision when Obama did it. and then he compounded it even further by spending another Trillion plus dollars that we couldn't afford to keep our economy going and to prevent unemployment from topping 8%. we see how well that worked huh.

So the alternative, having essentially no domestic automotive production, would have been a good decision? And again, how is any sort of presidential policy able to influence employment rates on the larger scale?

well at least Bush knew what Nuclear means even if he couldn't pronounce it. How Many states are there again?? you think you might wish to know that one if your going to be President. Just saying

I take it you're referring to that one-off line which was a pretty damn obvious joke?

[flip]

I'm sort of curious as to how any president has historically been able to enact major economic reversals or job creation initiatives based on their sole actions. Protip: they haven't, and they can't. Anyone who thinks that a given president can snap their fingers and strengthen the US dollar (side note: the dollar being weaker actually carries some inherent advantages, at least over the short-term) or reverse unemployment trends is deluded. Obama doesn't have much more power to modernize the entirety of the American workforce than you or I do.

All true but also not always the case. Congress and The Presidency had complete control over money before 1913, so any president before that time had that ability. Maybe were looking the wrong direction for a solution then, and the ones with that ability are not subject to us. It's the other way around and that is a total perversion of The Pledge Of Allegiance and for which it stands. Yet We The People, still operate under those conditions as if it could actually affect change.

[Spidey]

The idea that the world is judging us by who we elect to office…is kinda silly. Just try that the other way around.

And if it is true…well that just makes it even more silly.

I just can’t remember the last time I formed an opinion of another country, based on it’s elected officials…maybe it’s just me.

I think it’s a load. Or, at the very least…way over played.

[null0010]

I just can’t remember the last time I formed an opinion of another country, based on it’s elected officials…maybe it’s just me.

[Lothar]

I just can’t remember the last time I formed an opinion of another country, based on it’s elected officials…maybe it’s just me.

I don't judge the residents of Iran by the guy who steals their "elections".

Try again, sir.

[null0010]

That was a very specific denial, considering I did not accuse anyone in this forum of doing such a thing.

[Lothar]

That was a very specific denial, considering I did not accuse anyone in this forum of doing such a thing.

Of course not. You made a non-specific non-point in response to Spidey which was presumably intended to serve as an accusation but allow you to maintain plausible deniability if you were to be called on it. Or maybe it was an attempt at humor. Or maybe it was an attempt at subtle, witty political commentary that went over everyone's head. Whatever.

In any case, when conversing with other people, it's generally advisable to make an actual point that relates to the topic of conversation. I assumed you were attempting to do so, and responded according to what I assumed was your intended point. Would you prefer for me to assume that you're just posting random pictures for the lulz?

[null0010]

I would prefer you not jump down my throat in multiple threads. No explanation of my post will satisfy you.

[Lothar]

No explanation of my post will satisfy you.

I believe I've established that I'm reasonable in the decade plus I've been on this site, and therefore, it would be reasonable to expect that a reasonable explanation of your post #287500 would satisfy me.

However, arguing that "no explanation of my post will satisfy you" is yet another dodge, which does not satisfy me.

I would prefer you not jump down my throat in multiple threads.

In the decade plus I've been on this site, I've established a pattern of only jumping down people's throats when they give me good reason to. If you would prefer not to be in that position, change your behavior.

[flip]

Here's the thing Null. If you have an idea or position on an issue, state it. The Abbot Costello act gets boring as hell about half way through.

[CUDA]

heh TC and Null are birds of a feather. its almost impossible to get a straight answer out of either.
its CLEAR his intent was to accuse Spidey of judging the Iranian people by their President, but just like when TC started off with her sexist comments she deflects things away from her because she doesn't want to be held accountable. Do they teach this in DNC 101?

[Tunnelcat]

First off, I suspect we can quite a few Obama and Biden stumbles that are every bit as egregious as Palins....especially where Obama sans teleprompters speaks. As far as nuggets of wisdomes would you care to point out some that the other Rep. contenders issued? How about Obama? Any nuggets there, beyond his hope and change mantra. All Palin has to say is she'll cut taxes to stimulate small business and reduce govt. waste and she'll be as brilliant as anyone out there. The one thing Palin does do better than the rest of the pack is make you feel good about being an American...unlike the guy sitting in the White-house.

Yep, that'll fix our problems right off. Another 4 years of trashing the country by an inept leader represented and controlled by big money interests. By then, we'll be a third world slave state to the Oligarchs, Corporatists and Aristocrats. She'll gotten rid of the government by the people and for the people instead of cleaning house and kicking out the money and power brokers AND have given the top earners of this country so many tax breaks that she'll have to raise them for everyone else just to pay for what she does want, keeping the military fat and greasing the skids of her corporate sycophants. Mark my words. Oh, and Palin makes me sick to my stomach to consider her as an American. She makes us all look like blithering morons to the rest of the world.

Will, PROVE to me she can LEAD. So far you can't. I've already been been burned by my vote for Obama, who sounded like he could lead back then. So now I need more PROOF that I won't get burned again and vote for yet ANOTHER a complete effing moron. In fact, all the alternative choices right now are either complete morons, absolutely crazy, corporate shills or moral dogmatists with only radical agendas that would be disastrous for our country and it's people.

[woodchip]

First off, I suspect we can quite a few Obama and Biden stumbles that are every bit as egregious as Palins....especially where Obama sans teleprompters speaks. As far as nuggets of wisdomes would you care to point out some that the other Rep. contenders issued? How about Obama? Any nuggets there, beyond his hope and change mantra. All Palin has to say is she'll cut taxes to stimulate small business and reduce govt. waste and she'll be as brilliant as anyone out there. The one thing Palin does do better than the rest of the pack is make you feel good about being an American...unlike the guy sitting in the White-house.

Yep, that'll fix our problems right off. Another 4 years of trashing the country by an inept leader represented and controlled by big money interests. By then, we'll be a third world slave state to the Oligarchs, Corporatists and Aristocrats. She'll gotten rid of the government by the people and for the people instead of cleaning house and kicking out the money and power brokers AND have given the top earners of this country so many tax breaks that she'll have to raise them for everyone else just to pay for what she does want, keeping the military fat and greasing the skids of her corporate sycophants. Mark my words. Oh, and Palin makes me sick to my stomach to consider her as an American. She makes us all look like blithering morons to the rest of the world.

Will, PROVE to me she can LEAD. So far you can't. I've already been been burned by my vote for Obama, who sounded like he could lead back then. So now I need more PROOF that I won't get burned again and vote for yet ANOTHER a complete effing moron. In fact, all the alternative choices right now are either complete morons, absolutely crazy, corporate shills or moral dogmatists with only radical agendas that would be disastrous for our country and it's people.

A few things you should look into:

"Polls taken in 2007 showed her with 93% and 89% popularity among all voters" (in Alaska as gov.)
"In 2008, Palin vetoed $286 million, cutting or reducing funding for 350 projects from the FY09 capital budget"
"Palin followed through on a campaign promise to sell the Westwind II jet, a purchase made by the Murkowski administration for $2.7 million in 2005 against the wishes of the legislature"
"she was permitted to claim a $58 per diem travel allowance, which she took (a total of $16,951), and to reimbursement for hotels, which she did not, choosing instead to drive about 50 miles to her home in Wasilla"
"She also chose not to use the former governor's private chef"
"In December 2008, an Alaska state commission recommended increasing the Governor's annual salary from $125,000 to $150,000. Palin stated that she would not accept the pay raise.[102] In response, the commission dropped the recommendation."

What I see is a leader who walked the walk by not using state compensations at every turn and instead sought to save the state money when she could. Can you say that for the party boy in office now. I think we'd find it refreshing with Palin in office, unlike the puppet doing the Pinocchio act while luxuriating in the White House.

[Krom]

I'm not a fan of Sarah Palin, I don't hate her but I think the whole media circus around her is retarded. McCain wanted to rev up the "conservative base" by bringing her into the spotlight, but it was a stupid decision because in exchange for heating up a bunch of loudmouth extremists it alienated the vast majority of moderates.

I think there is some very solid common ground that woodchip and tunnelcat share when it comes to Palin: If tunnelcat is right and Palin is an idiot, then electing her to a high office would be bad. But if woodchip is right and Palin is a genius manipulator, then electing her would be just as bad if for a totally different reason. Regardless of if she is smart and leading the media around by the nose or if she is stupid and just doesn't know when to quit, she would still be dangerous in a high office.

[woodchip]

And yet Krom, prior to McCain picking her for VP and the rabid fear driven press trying to eviscerate Palin, her approval rating as Alaska gov. was the highest of all the gov's in the country. The question is, how many peoples impression of Palin is driven by what the press wants you to think? If you are basing your opinion on what the liberals want you to think instead of what Palins record reflected, then give yourself a pile of horse pucky for allowing the press to manipulate you.

[Krom]

12:43 * woodchip casts straw man, it is ineffective.

[woodchip]

Now there is a cop-out reply

[Krom]

Oh I'm sorry, next time you should post something that is worth replying to in depth instead of rabidly attacking the press and liberals. I could practically see the spittle flying from your mouth as you spewed that post because it was so rushed, poorly thought out and riddled with errors.

[woodchip]

Gosh, who'd a thunk you are in the crowd my post covers. Sorry for your ideological laced brainwaves going into non-responsive overload. I'll say a novena for you next time I'm in church.

[Tunnelcat]

A few things you should look into:

"Polls taken in 2007 showed her with 93% and 89% popularity among all voters" (in Alaska as gov.)
"In 2008, Palin vetoed $286 million, cutting or reducing funding for 350 projects from the FY09 capital budget"
"Palin followed through on a campaign promise to sell the Westwind II jet, a purchase made by the Murkowski administration for $2.7 million in 2005 against the wishes of the legislature"
"she was permitted to claim a $58 per diem travel allowance, which she took (a total of $16,951), and to reimbursement for hotels, which she did not, choosing instead to drive about 50 miles to her home in Wasilla"
"She also chose not to use the former governor's private chef"
"In December 2008, an Alaska state commission recommended increasing the Governor's annual salary from $125,000 to $150,000. Palin stated that she would not accept the pay raise.[102] In response, the commission dropped the recommendation."

What I see is a leader who walked the walk by not using state compensations at every turn and instead sought to save the state money when she could. Can you say that for the party boy in office now. I think we'd find it refreshing with Palin in office, unlike the puppet doing the Pinocchio act while luxuriating in the White House.

Everything you state appears true on the surface. Even the Anchorage Daily News gave her some glowing pats on the back. They gave her kudos for her knack with populist gestures and her hutzpah, so I can't fault her on those counts. She has that charismatic style that attracts people to her cause. But I've finally found the reasons I don't trust her, something I juuuuuuuust couldn't articulate about her until I found this article in the ADN. She's the type of leader that likes to delegate the detail work and isn't really interested in spending the effort on the nuts and bolts of getting things done, "second-tier subjects" as the ADN puts it. She's the quintessential "idea man" or "idea woman", in her case. She comes up with all those wonderful ideas then leaves it to others to make them happen. Now maybe that's OK if she can appoint others that are competent to finish jobs that she thought of, but if she doesn't care about working out the details, and can't find competent people who can, she may ultimately be doomed to failure. And she's had a poor track record getting and retaining qualified people to do that detail work apparently. She sure doesn't have the stamina to finish something herself, like completing her full term as governor.

http://www.adn.com/2008/09/06/518451/pa ... rship.html

LIMITATIONS AS A LEADER

Outside of her top priorities, though, the limitations of Gov. Palin's leadership style begin to show. She delegates much of the detail work and spends little time on second-tier subjects.

That management style can work -- if you have assembled a crackerjack, detail-oriented management team. That's what she did with her effort on the natural gas pipeline -- and it helps explain her success on that issue. However, in many areas, Palin has had to rely on people with a weak track record of running state government or working with the Legislature.

As a foe of the Republican establishment, she doesn't have a deep pool of talent to draw on. She has not yet found a replacement for the public safety commissioner she forced out earlier this summer. Her first replacement choice resigned after just two weeks because he had misled Alaskans about his record of sexual harassment. A stronger staff would have done a better job of vetting the candidate and spared the governor the embarrassment.

The other thing that I don't like about her is her sense of righteousness. She thinks she's right and everyone who disagrees with her or her family is just plain wrong. That kind of dogmatic and resistant-to-new-ideas thinking is the sign of a personality that can't accept the views of others or accept change. Rigid and dogmatic. She's even given a hit in her bipartisanship, she's lousy at it. It's her way or the highway.

NOT A GREAT LOBBYIST

Palin racked up her legislative victories even though her allies in the Legislature criticized her lobbying effort. Here at the Daily News, we repeatedly heard the complaint: The governor is missing in action; her staffers aren't working the halls the way they should be.

Palin dislikes the give-and-take that usually helps smooth the way for political decisions. She states her case and expects legislators to base their actions on the merits of the issue

FEARLESS, RIGHTEOUS

One of Gov. Palin's great strengths as a reformer also has a downside. She has a fervent sense of what's right and what's wrong and has little concern for political consequences. This fearless sense of righteousness has generally served her well -- as when she went after Alaska's arrogant and corrupt Republican political establishment.

But Alaskans have seen in Troopergate how this part of Palin's character can be a weakness too. In Palin's mind, her ex-brother-in-law was a violent, intimidating, irresponsible person who has no business being a state trooper. And she's right about that. But she had no sense of how continuing to push her concerns as governor might lead to political, or even legal, trouble.

The cracks in her carefully public facade are showing, and besides, she rubs my fur the wrong way.

[flip]

leader that likes to delegate the detail work

This is exactly how it is done TC. As long as the people answering to her can be trusted to fulfill their charge then anything she wants done, gets done. Take a good look at the people around her too.

[CUDA]

she rubs my fur the wrong way.

I didn't know you went that way

[Tunnelcat]

leader that likes to delegate the detail work

This is exactly how it is done TC. As long as the people answering to her can be trusted to fulfill their charge then anything she wants done, gets done. Take a good look at the people around her too.

Maybe, but it's a sign of being non-committal and unconcerned with how the job get's done. If she's too focused on coming up with new ideas to follow the original ones to completion, then she won't get anything substantive done. Although I suppose that someone too focused on details would stagnate as well. Balance is the key, and a good manager knows when to delegate and when to focus on the details. I don't think she's got it. On top of that, it takes skill to hire the right people for the job too. She's blown that one with her righteousness. If she just likes to delegate and be done with it, she can be used or manipulated by others more powerful and aggressive. We're back to status quo in Washington.

[Will Robinson]

...
She thinks she's right and everyone who disagrees with her or her family is just plain wrong. That kind of dogmatic and resistant-to-new-ideas thinking is the sign of a personality that can't accept the views of others or accept change. Rigid and dogmatic. ...

who are you talking about again?

[woodchip]

Well, it was said of Pres. Carter that he was a micro mgr, and we can see how that style of leadership worked At least tho TC, you are now starting to look at substantive issues with Palin and not what the bloggers are saying. +1

[flip]

Maybe, but it's a sign of being non-committal and unconcerned with how the job get's done.

Absolutely not. She is the one there to ensure that it does get done. If that happens, and it was to her liking, then she was successful.

[Ferno]

she rubs my fur the wrong way.

I didn't know you went that way

what, you didn't know she was a carpet bomber?

[Tunnelcat]

Oooooooooooooooooh kay. If she's so determined and willing to fight for what she believes in and go to the effort and expense (someone else's money just went down the toilet) to court her base, why quit partway through another job, AGAIN? Although this was just a vanity tour and not really a job.............

http://www.drudge.com/news/145485/palin ... tour-early

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... 10313.html

Yes woodchip, Carter was a micro-manager and he failed because of it. But Palin has the opposite problem. She can't focus her mind long enough to get more than 2 things done and can't seem tp find people that will put up with her long enough to get anything finished.

Ferno, even a carpet bomber will mostly hit the target, plus some.

[Tunnelcat]

And the coup de grace, the buff-her-image movie has cratered. It's now pay per view fodder. Looks like "undefeated" really means "defeated".

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/pali ... 15807.html