Reich nails it.

[callmeslick]

Well, no, here's another problem. We argue whether our Founding Fathers were believers or not. They themselves said that this way of government will only be effective with a moral and conscientious populace. Then for the last 50 years or so, they try like hell to remove any sense of religious beliefs in schools and in government and teach people they are merely a highly evolved animal. What's to believe in? Where's the pride of your heritage? To whom do we appeal when we feel a higher calling? NO, the intent for many years has been to make a population that is easily controlled and does not think for themselves. Then when we get that, we realize the engineers are a bunch of friggin **** themselves and since they are no more enlightened than the ape they embrace as their ancestors, they blame it on all the "stupid" people. I don't entirely disagree with you, but then we need to investigate how we got there. Wasn't always so and that surely reflects on the leadership. If that's what you want to call it.

puhlease.....spare us the religious spin. The Founding Fathers were no more religious than the current population, given the historical context. Most of the key ones could be seen as very much secular humanists, in an 18th century mode. To ascribe the problems of the modern age to science and technology usurping religion is akin to the Luddite movement of the 19th century. In other words, ignore reality and it will go away. There is no reason that my accepting the near-certainty that man is descended from ape family precursors does a damned thing to diminish the pride of my heritage. As for education, religion never should have a place in public education.....Jefferson understood that much, and founded a Public University that still holds up pretty well. What the Founders all stated was that this system of government depended upon an informed and involved electorate. Since that point, we have expanded the electorate to a lot of folks who are not adequately informed, and stopped teaching our children to get both informed and involved. We have exactly the government that we, as a nation, deserve, IMHO.

[flip]

Of course your not adding yourself to that group. Well, all I can say is that when this country was predominately believing in a greater power, we were strong and inventive. After all, if you think your a child of God, you seem to think alot more highly of yourself than these monkeys do nowadays. Now that the majority are agnostic, everythings going to hell. This with all your scientific advancement. Is this all you have Slick, a blanket indictment that all our problems stem from the lack of education or motivation your public schools are providing. Or is there better education to be bought privately and then why is that?

[Spidey]

I think much more highly of myself now, then I did when I believed I was just a sheep, born to serve.

[flip]

Lol, yeah and there's a lot of pride and dignity to be had by saying I'm related to "Caeser" ROFL. Not in my book.

[flip]

Slaves serve Spidey. Sons Rule. I don't see it the same way as you, but I will agree that every man is a liar .

And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest: And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, “And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth.” But he denied, saying, “I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest.” And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew. (Mark 14:66-68)

And Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple: that disciple was known unto the high priest, and went in with Jesus into the palace of the high priest. But Peter stood at the door without. Then went out that other disciple, which was known unto the high priest, and spake unto her that kept the door, and brought in Peter. Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, “Art not thou also one of this man's disciples?” He saith, “I am not.” And the servants and officers stood there, who had made a fire of coals; for it was cold: and they warmed themselves: and Peter stood with them, and warmed himself. (John 18:15-18)

And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, “This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.” And again he denied with an oath, “I do not know the man.” And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, “Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech betrayeth thee.” Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, “I know not the man.” And immediately the cock crew. And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, “Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.” And he went out, and wept bitterly. (Matthew 26:71-75)

This same guy went on to be hung upside down, after watching his family killed.

[Spidey]

Lol, yeah and there's a lot of pride and dignity to be had by saying I'm related to "Caeser" ROFL. Not in my book.

I guess the problem here is, how your religion has taught “you” to think of animals.

[flip]

How the hell do you get that? You have no idea what "I" have discovered in my investigations. The sheep comment you made is telling

[Spidey]

How the hell do you get that? You have no idea what "I" have discovered in my investigations.

Fair enough…

[Will Robinson]

...

You provide the recipe for the rise of a demagogue, or a pure tyrant. Not a happy thought.

You wondered if leadership could capture the attention of the voters. I told you what I think is the only kind of "leadership" the masses will respond to. I never said anything about the quality of that 'leadership' other than to mention it could be really good all the way to really bad.

I find little to differentiate between the 'demagogue/pure tyrant' you raise the specter of and those we have in power today.
As to the voters of Minnesota "running back to politicians". I don't think they were given a choice so it is more like they were herded back onto the plantation.

Anyway, I find it very hard to believe a bona fide politician can ever capture the support from a cross section of the majority of voters and it will have to be a cross section majority to effect real change to the system.
A professional politician is inherently a partisan in today's world and the voters are polarized by decades of divide and conquer so it has to be an outsider to pull them together under one tent. That or an invasion...or a depression.

You go to >30% unemployment and 'the people' will become one in a very nasty dangerous way and the last person you will want to be around here is a "politician".

[callmeslick]

don't take my words wrongly, Will. I agree with you, and realized what you were laying out. I think we both share the opinion that the outcome would be unpleasant.

[flip]

Lol, any one person that could step up on their own and fix all the world's problems should be killed immediately