Smart vulnerability

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:53 pm

Our power company been installing these power meters all over Corvallis this year. We got one installed back in the spring.

Smart Meters

People are of course up in arms over the privacy issue, but I think that the bigger threat comes from another whole direction.

We were given a meter made by Zigbee Alliance. Feel free to peruse all their links. It's quite interesting.

http://www.zigbee.org/Standards/ZigBeeS ... rview.aspx

Now as far as I can tell, this meter is now part of a wireless network with your neighbors, which they call a (HAN or Home Area Network), piggybacked onto the same frequencies as WiFi, to communicate back to the power company. The power company now has the ability to remotely shut off your meter. I can see the uses for that ability, like controlling a separate electric car charger to make sure it's only on at night, but that's not the part that's worrisome. It's what hackers can DO with this networked system that may be a bigger concern. Zigbee and our power company have been assuring people that their encrypted network is secure. Yeah, right. Suuuuuuuure. Hackers from somewhere just got into an Ohio municipal water system and shut down the main pump.

http://news.yahoo.com/u-investigates-cy ... 19205.html

And I'm sure many of you seen this video of a diesel genset being destroyed only by commands from the internet.

Now, where I'm going with this is what would happen if someone got past the power company's or Zigbees encrypted security and started turning on and off people's power meters in a way that would destabilize the grid? It would be bad enough to lose power and have wait and wait while they tried to figure out a new system and how your meter got shut down. But could someone with enough smarts or backing, say Russia or China, bring down the whole system with just a few keystrokes, or at least pay havoc with it?

We've been running full speed into the internet age to interconnect everything, but we're still lagging way behind when it comes to security. It's going to come back to haunt us.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:15 pm

I'm sure the Iranians were assured their nuclear operations were encrypted and secure also.

TechPro · Post by **TechPro** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:22 pm

But all they really got was a shoddy bomb casing filled with pinball machine parts. ... oh wait, that was the Libyans wasn't it. Oh well. Carry on.

... See, of course some malfeasant is going to (or has) hacked into these sorts of systems. Hackers (with some regularity apparently) have a habit of hacking into government systems (not just American government systems), high end 'security' organisations, large banking and financial institutions. What makes anyone think a local utility company would have security equal to or better than ANY of those organisations?

Folks, what we have here is fear being perpetuated (or amplified) needlessly. Yes, these kinds of wifi networked devices are useful to the companies that want to use them. Yes, their security may not be the best. Yes, hackers can, will, and do hack these kinds of systems. So what? In most cases the benefits much outweigh the risks. Instead of being "Chicken Littles" about the subject, just "suck it up" and deal with it. ... or else work at figuring out a better solution that doesn't run the risk, but still provides the benefit. Complaining doesn't make it better.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:05 am

My question has always been…

Why aren’t the OS systems that government, military, Power Companies, etc use proprietary?

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:03 pm

Probably because it would take a crap-load of time and money to develop a brand-new proprietary OS that was anywhere near as fully-featured and robust as what's available now.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:40 pm

That would be a piss poor excuse for companies & organizations with millions even billions in resources available.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:57 pm

Yes, but is building a brand-new OS from scratch an effective use of those resources, especially when various Unix/Linux options can be made to run extremely stable and secure?

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:22 pm

Depends on whether these breaches are simple security breaches, or actual OS hacks.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:32 am

a power meter is designed to measure the entire amount of power being used by the household.

it doesn't measure power usage going to individual circuits or sockets. and a hacker, if able to get into it, would only see a number. hardly anything to worry about.

and for some reason, this discussion reminds me of weekly world news' "hackers can turn your computer into a bomb" piece.

sdfgeoff · Post by **sdfgeoff** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:49 am

Would see only a number hey? And what about turning it off?

TechPro · Post by **TechPro** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:41 am

Oh yeah, I can see it now. "Someone hacked the system and turned off the power for Joe Nobody on Lost Drive." Oh yeah, lots to gain from that.

There is the concern of whole grids getting shutdown, but when you get down to it they should be rather simple to bring back up. If a hacking shutdown the system and also killed the networking piece ... So what? ALL of the systems are designed to also be ran without the networking in place if need be. A few people drive around and flips switches. Lookee folks! You're lights are back on!

IMO getting the system hacked and shutdown would only be a short temporary interruption at best. Occasional thunderstorms accomplish the same thing without any hacking at all.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:32 pm

TechPro wrote:IMO getting the system hacked and shutdown would only be a short temporary interruption at best. Occasional thunderstorms accomplish the same thing without any hacking at all.

I dunno, Mother Nature knows some 1337 h@x.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:29 pm

What exactly did they (who ? Pacific Power ?) install ? Make & model would be of interest. I still have my regular meter (south town), haven't heard anything about anyone wanting to replace it yet.

Time to dust off the RZ Raven I guess...

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:18 pm

sdfgeoff wrote:Would see only a number hey? And what about turning it off?

highly doubtful. meters are passive units.

Foil · Post by **Foil** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:52 pm

Ferno wrote:highly doubtful. meters are passive units.

That's what seems to be changing.

One of the things I was starting to see quite a bit before I left my previous work (as a software developer in the CAD arena) was B.I.M., Building Information Management, a philosophy of building design with literally everything integrated.

One of the major pushes in that area is energy efficiency, with all kinds of systems being networked so that a central system can actively cut or increase power to various utilities. I'm not too surprised to see elements of this already being tested on homes, even if they are just passive systems right now.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:55 pm

Ferno wrote:a power meter is designed to measure the entire amount of power being used by the household.

it doesn't measure power usage going to individual circuits or sockets. and a hacker, if able to get into it, would only see a number. hardly anything to worry about.

and for some reason, this discussion reminds me of weekly world news' "hackers can turn your computer into a bomb" piece.

Uh, Ferno, these meters can be turned on or off remotely, via the power lines or the HAN WiFi network. They are NOT passive. The power company can turn off your power remotely, without touching the meter at all, although they claim they won't do so. Now imagine the power company decides to activate the WiFi portion of this meter for some reason or another and someone with enough skill breaks the encryption, gets into this network and starts turning on and off people's power at random, or in a pattern that would compromise the grid perhaps?

Grendel wrote:What exactly did they (who ? Pacific Power ?) install ? Make & model would be of interest. I still have my regular meter (south town), haven't heard anything about anyone wanting to replace it yet.

Grendel, we're on Consumers Power. They started installing them last spring.

http://www.consumerspower.org/feature/story.php?ID=1904

Now even though CPI claims that all information and commands are being sent ONLY over the power lines, the Zigbee Alliance model we have supposedly has the WiFi capability already built into the unit. So technically, it's possible they might activate this feature if needed in the future. For all I know, it may be operational now. The power company is being murky about it. If you want to know the exact model number, I'll have to go outside and look.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:06 pm

Hm. Looks like a meter only, but can't really tell w/o the specs. I was asking for make/model for trying to dig them, always an interesting read

IIRC we're on PP but I have to double check to be sure. "proprietary encryption algorithm" -- scarry...

Edit: This one ? Neat system. Not that I would want that w/o access to the disconnect switch...

snoopy · Post by **snoopy** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:55 pm

Yeah... I'd say "proprietary encryption algorithm" has a slim chance of being more secure than the standards out there - it would just require a bit of extra analysis.

After trying my hand at hacking my own WPA (PSK) and WEP wireless passwords, I can tell you that generally wireless security isn't great for wireless networks. My understanding is that WPA-EAP is more secure, but I doubt even that would hold up well to a determined force.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:05 pm

Grendel wrote:Hm. Looks like a meter only, but can't really tell w/o the specs. I was asking for make/model for trying to dig them, always an interesting read IIRC we're on PP but I have to double check to be sure. "proprietary encryption algorithm" -- scarry...

Edit: This one ? Neat system. Not that I would want that w/o access to the disconnect switch...

Yeah, we've got the Landis Gyr Focus AXR. You can't read that top white tag very well with this smaller picture, but it does have an FCC ID number above that TS2 number, which indicates the presence of a radio.

No, I don't have access to the disconnect switch, unless I yank the thing off and install a bypass buss. I don't think CPI would find that very amusing and you can be damn sure with this little puppy removed, they would know about it pretty quick.

You too might be getting one of these in the future Grendel. Depends on whether PP either gets the money or time to install them, but the future is coming. You won't have any say in it either. You will be assimilated.

flip · Post by **flip** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:20 pm

Heh, they do. I removed mine to install another panel box. I lied and told the powerman that one of my kids had clipped the tag off with some of the tools I had been using. Then he informed me that the meter had also been removed. Lol, I started laughing a came clean. Saved me about 65 bucks

. And yes, I made the mistake of trying to pay my bill on the cutoff date. I was sitting with card in my hand and at 7:58, 2 minutes before opening

, power shuts off. I was like wth, I had my gate locked lol. Paid and within 5 minutes of paying , power was right back on.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:46 pm

Well, I' ll keep an eye out. Hate the idea of someone remotely killing power "by accident". A big bypass switch would provide a quick remedy JIC..

Three points of possible break in: 1. via the power lines, 2. wireless, and 3. optical (that thing has an optical port). 2. and 3. are more easy to get going, needs a bit of research tho.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:17 pm

That's what kind of bugs me. Everybody rushes full steam into some new technology like it's a new wonderful toy or panacea that will solve everyone's problems without thinking about those little niggling downsides that always come back to haunt us. Maybe they don't care about the negatives to the customer when it's mostly for the company's ease, profit and benefit. Typical.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:42 pm

Here in Philly, people have so many pit bulls in their houses and yards…the meter readers need to have police escorts to do their jobs.

So yea, I can see using “smart meters” they have been using wireless water meters here for years, without any problems. (no they can’t shut off the service)

Electric meters that could turn off the power automatically, would need some hefty relays installed, (200 amps at my house, and much more at my shop) and would probably not be very effective. I would look into that before I came to the conclusion, that they could do such a thing.

Humor me, I can’t seem to confirm this…

"Uh, Ferno, these meters can be turned on or off remotely, via the power lines or the HAN WiFi network. They are NOT passive. The power company can turn off your power remotely, without touching the meter at all,"

Where exactly did you get this info?

flip · Post by **flip** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:21 pm

I know for an absolute fact they can. I don't know what process they use, but I assure you my gate was locked. It wasn't the first time I left them sitting in front of my house looking stupid while I needed more time to get the money

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:34 pm

They were at your property that might be a clue.

I can’t see how this would be cost efficient, the cost of a high power relay in every meter…vs. the chance event of having to turn your power off.

If they had people at your house…this would completely defeat any cost savings to the company.

BTW the meter reader here at my house has to hop the fence…

Also a couple of options here…

1. I don’t know how your street is laid out, but they might have cut you off at the pole.

2. They may have installed a special meter, just for dead beats.

flip · Post by **flip** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:49 pm

Heh, I am absolutely sure that no one was at my house when the power shut off, or when it came back on. I have 4 kids and a busted back so sometimes we get in a bind. I started working when I was 15 and had to stop 3 years ago, so you can kiss my ass

Here, they have to have a warrant

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:54 pm

WoW, I take it back…I had no idea just how many people were not paying their bills.

I support the use of these meters.

flip · Post by **flip** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:03 pm

You take what back?

[ Post made via Android ]

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:05 pm

"Electric meters that could turn off the power automatically, would need some hefty relays installed, (200 amps at my house, and much more at my shop) and would probably not be very effective. I would look into that before I came to the conclusion, that they could do such a thing."

flip · Post by **flip** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:20 pm

Well be assured I thought the same thing. 2 months earlier I did not have the money by the cut-date. I had to wait till that evening before I had the money. They wouldn't wait so I wouldn't open the gate. I paid that evening. Next time around I actually had the money, but made the mistake of waiting till the morning of the cut off date to pay. With card in hand and 2 minutes before they opened, they cut my power. Remotely somehow but not by removing the meter. I don't like people casting dispersions on me. I am far from a deadbeat.

[ Post made via Android ]

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:37 pm

Spidey wrote:"Electric meters that could turn off the power automatically, would need some hefty relays installed, (200 amps at my house, and much more at my shop) and would probably not be very effective. I would look into that before I came to the conclusion, that they could do such a thing."

you're right on that one. and if they did that, they would cease to be meters and become a node.

"Uh, Ferno, these meters can be turned on or off remotely, via the power lines or the HAN WiFi network. They are NOT passive. The power company can turn off your power remotely, without touching the meter at all,"

The power company doesn't have to do it through the meter. they take a truck out to the transformer that supplies your line and pull the supply switch. just like they always have.

flip · Post by **flip** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:18 am

I'm not positive how they did it, it may have been on the street but no trucks were on the street and I was outside raising hell. Then I have to wonder why they didn't do it the first time. It was just like I said, I was fixing to call, had the phone in my hand and bam everything goes dead. I lost my patience LOL. SO I called, showing obvious restraint

because I was friggin pissed. I had to pay the reconnect fee, but after 5 minutes my power came back on. I made a somewhat compelling argument. lol. I think they did it remotely, wirelessly, somehow probably sitting at the main hub somehow. Definitely the impression I was left with

.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:55 pm

Wow. All I had to do was Google "smart meters can be turned off remotely" and I got a boatload of hits, even about the security concerns with the encrypted remote shutoff capability and the grid. So yes Spidey, they can be turned off via a remote command, and I have a 200 amp service as well. I don't know how the mechanism works either in such a small package. By the way, not all smart meters can be turned off remotely, but apparently the one we got (Zigbee Alliance with the radio) CAN be.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/07/28 ... ity_risks/

But the security issue still haunts me. You'll like all this stuff Grendel. Apparently these things are vulnerable to a "cross-site request forgery" and "malicious worm threats" as the links below report.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/0 ... e-smartly/

They also answered where the money came from that allowed my electric company to install these things en mass in my neighborhood, a $3.4 billion grant from the feds and Obama!

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/10/smartgrid/

The way this system is being implemented in such a rush is damn scary! But I also have noticed something else. I'm going to have to keep track of my electric usage and compare it to years past. I'm starting to get worried that this meter may be slightly overcharging me for electricity if my recent bills are any indication.

And I stumbled into this with all my Googling. These things are being put on GAS meters too, AND they are vulnerable to attack as well! Hadn't thought about that one! I've got the very same module on my gas meter (pictured in the link below), but I don't have the "smart" electronic parts of the meter installed ...... yet.

http://rdist.root.org/2010/02/15/revers ... art-meter/

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:39 pm

Yea, tc I found the info myself…my first query was where is that info in the links you posted….sorry.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:31 pm

the only thing that will happen if a meter is shut off is... it stops measuring total power usage.

again: the only way power can actually be shut off is at the breaker. either on the pole, or at the breaker-box.

"These things are being put on GAS meters too" and with the power, the only way to actually shut off the gas is with a wrench on the valve.

I saw the picture that your last link has on it TC. that's not a smart meter. that's just your regular meter that's been on the supply for years.

I'm really scratching my head trying to figure out why you guys are so worried about all this.

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