The Stoned Age

bash · Post by **bash** » Sat May 15, 2004 4:07 pm

"Your civilization is selfish and self-centred. Just you want to live and enjoy yourselves and that is all, you don't give."

"We don't believe in killing innocent people but we would certainly like to send you into the Stone Age the same way you have sent us into the Stone Age."

So says an Al-Qaeda spokesjihadi about why Canada is a legitimate target for terrorists. I post this because of the appeasers (nations and individuals) that say we're going about things wrong in the WOT and we should reach out for peace with Al-Qaeda.

Canada has bent over backwards to do almost everything it could to avoid antagonizing Al-Qaeda, even recently flying some AQ family members (Canadian citizens, btw) on the country's dime back to Canada for medical treatment. And yet what has it gotten Canada? Zed Eye Pee.

http://www.canada.com/national/national ... d25afe4ebe

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Sat May 15, 2004 4:19 pm

This is exactly what I was saying in the other thread. They benefit from the West and take all they can and then they accuse us of not giving and they want to destroy our way of life? WTF?

These people, I swear....as serious as they might be they do make you laugh sometimes because seriously. All you have to do is look at the history of violence in their region of the world. Violence that stems from them constantly fighting over religion and land and whatnot. Killing their own people for hundreds of years and they have the unmitigated gall to say someone else is responsible for them being in the stone age?

While they've been repressing, the rest of the world has been progressing. Reading that article you continue to understand how half ass backwards those people are.

Al Qaeda wrote:According to a translation of an article written by Abu Ayman al-Hilali, a senior al-Qaeda leader and ideologist, the United States, Britain, France, Italy, Canada, Germany, and Australia are "enemies" and attacks against their civilians are justified. Since Western governments are engaged in a war against Islam, he argued, the civilian voters who elect those governments cannot be considered non-combatants and are legitimate targets for terrorists.

huh? what? just find a damn cave and stay in it. This is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read in my entire life. We're going out of our way to NOT KILL CIVILIANS, but yeah, ours are free game because we elected the people who dictate when and where to fight and that our fight is ONLY again Islam.

Yeah, like every American or every citizen of any other Democracy votes or that the Islam AQ believes in is some better version of the real Islam. Instead of some twisted up mangled spewed rhetoric that it actually is.

Frustration.....frustration is a good word that comes to mind right now. Trying to stay tolerant, but my tolerance only goes so far. Tolerance of this kind of logic is not going anywhere with me. That article doesn't scare me, it just makes me more resolved that the people we are dealing with are seriously misguided and need to be dealt with. Scared AQ? Thats fine, you can hide in your caves and attack us and our people all you want. We'll see who has the resources to outlast the other.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Sat May 15, 2004 4:31 pm

these people are five year old savages. they're no good to anyone. just get rid of em... /me shakes head.

"Look at these Canadians. They have millions and millions of dollars to fight against Muslims"

hah yea right.. if they did their homework they'd realize we have barely enough money to support a minimal military.

"He said terrorist attacks would end only when the West stopped trying to dominate the Muslim world."

uhh, hello.. we didn't fly planes into buildings and behead people..

man.. talk about stupidity. almost makes me wish that the marines would drop the biggest nuke they have on em already.. almost. I'm done with being tolerant and now I want their asses kicked.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Sat May 15, 2004 4:51 pm

I wish there was just some easy way to round up every last one of them in a big pen and drop the world's biggest incendiary bomb on them to roast their flesh alive. Heck, I'd be the first in line to volunteer to press the drop button. Unfortunately, it's not that simple, but we have to continue to do our best. We can't afford to let our guard down until every last one of the SOBs has a bullet between their eyes.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Sat May 15, 2004 4:52 pm

Ferno wrote:uhh, hello.. we didn't fly planes into buildings and behead people..

It doesn't matter to them Ferny. heh, they'll cry jihad and kill citizens of the free world for as long as we're all better then they are. You know what...thats going to be a VERY long time

We're dealing with some extremely intelligent, but extremely confused and misguided people. It's hard to believe their intelligence doesn't dictate what they're doing is wrong, but thats where the religion overrides everything.

Course, getting an education on how to build bombs or fly a plane doesn't make you an intellectual. They want to dump the mess their infighting has created for themselves over there on our laps and make it our responsibility? Thats fine, responsibility has been taken and we've sent in the cleanup crew to clean up that mess.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Sat May 15, 2004 5:02 pm

my jihad will be my cohck slapping their heads..

De Rigueur · Post by **De Rigueur** » Sat May 15, 2004 6:35 pm

Maybe I haven't been keeping up, but have some of you become more hawkish lately? I'm surprised no one has raised the issue of the 'root causes' of terrorism, etc.

"Trying to stay tolerant, but my tolerance only goes so far." How true - every human being on earth is tolerant . . . up to a point.

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Sat May 15, 2004 7:40 pm

[quote="De Rigueur"]I'm surprised no one has raised the issue of the 'root causes' of terrorism, etc.[quote]

I have tried at other times in other threads. I have just about given up. When ever I mention that there just may be another way to fight this "war" other than bombing the living crap out of people I get called an "appeaser". What ever

Israel has been pretty heavy handed with it's terrorist population and other enemies over the years. How's it working out for them? They won the "war" yet?

Violence begets violence. Wake me up when all you "non-appeasers" learn that lesson.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Sat May 15, 2004 7:51 pm

Israel has alternated between being heavy-handed and light-handed against terrorists. They've also alternated between being light-handed and heavy-handed against non-terrorist Palestinians. Not surprisingly, this hasn't won them the war yet. To equate the US policy in Iraq to this is kind of silly...

bash · Post by **bash** » Sat May 15, 2004 7:58 pm

Violence begets violence.

Dedman, it's a war. Why hasn't that sunk in yet?

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat May 15, 2004 8:23 pm

Ferno wrote:my jihad will be my cohck slapping their heads..

Somehow, I doubt that would stop them. I'd just shoot them.

Actually, if everything came down to just two options:
1) let the extremeists win and control the whole world like they have always wanted
or
2) kill everyone and everything on this entire planet to prevent them from ever spreading.

I would probably choose option 2.

De Rigueur · Post by **De Rigueur** » Sat May 15, 2004 8:34 pm

Dedman wrote: Violence begets violence.

I once heard a lecture on Gandhi's celebrated method of non-violence. The success of the method depended upon what group of people it was directed against. Non-violence worked well when applied against the British in India (MLK also used it to good effect in the US.) But it didn't work when Gandhi was trying to influence Muslims. I take the moral of the story to be: if non-violence has a chance of success, use it; otherwise don't.

Of course, we can still debate whether it is likely to work in a given set of circumstances, but I don't think we can assume that non-violence is universally effective.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Sat May 15, 2004 8:48 pm

Since we ARE dealing with Muslims, all be it the radical kind, the non-violent approach isn't something they tend to understand. They hate everything the West stands for so much that peace isn't even an option for them. They won't stop until we're all dead, and that will not happen.

So...what do you do? I don't think there really is an answer.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sat May 15, 2004 9:17 pm

There is a answer but I'm afraid we the "civilised world has not the stomach for it. In world war 2, we didn't have any problem with bombing hell out of Germanies cities. So maybe the ultimate cure is to stop worrying about collateral damage and destroy every city and town in Syria and Iran. Leave no infastructure standing. Give a ultimatum before hand. When done give the reconsruction task to the U.N. When the local population realises the cost of allowing terrorist to operate in their midst is the loss of everything, then perhaps local vigilantis will remove them. Harsh? Perhaps. Will they still hate us? Yup. Will they fear the retribution that terrorist acts will initiate? You bet. My feelings? Eat sand.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Sat May 15, 2004 10:15 pm

Tyranny wrote:...So...what do you do? I don't think there really is an answer.

Yea there is.
You dominate the game, that's the answer.
I see our victory as almost inevitable, the only question is how many minor defeats do we embrace on the way to winning the big prize in order to feel better about ourselves being the big winners?

The moral high ground is high priced real estate, the currency is blood.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Sat May 15, 2004 10:37 pm

When I asked "what do you do?" I was asking if you would do everything you could possibly do before resorting to firestorming entire cities and villages. People have very short memories when it comes to what it usually takes to settle something of this nature.

I'm not one of those people. I don't have delusions that this can be won in a peaceful manner. I don't have delusions that this can be won by killing just terrorists themselves. I know what it ultimately will take to settle this. It will be necessary, it's just a matter of time until the rest of the world gets tired of watching structures and people blown up before we all close in on that thorn of human existance called the middle east and give them a serious ass whooping into the 21st century.

It has already started, and they've already come out kicking and screaming while they're being dragged into the present like the little children they are.

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Sun May 16, 2004 8:56 am

Screw it. I call for restarting the crusades. That'll fix it.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Sun May 16, 2004 10:16 am

Tyranny, I didn't mean to infer you thought a peaceful solution was possible. I was just picking up on the point you raised ie; the often heard sentiment that 'there is no solution'.

Obviously there are two extremes to the possible courses of action we might choose.
1) We could try to withdraw and try to make nice with a people who's belief system thinks we are directly responsible for their failure to evolve culturally.
2) We could bomb them into chaos and keep them down under the thumb of a military force.

#1 Is foolish and dangerous because it legitimizes their point of view giving them status they don't deserve, prolonging the threat they pose indefinitely.

#2 Is not as effective as we would like to think nor is it a path to permanent change in their belief system so it's not really a solution at all.

To achieve victory we need to affect their belief system. We won't 'win their hearts and minds' exactly, but we feel there is a natural tendancy for all humans to seek the path to freedom. That is something they haven't ever experienced so we can only hope to provide a foundation for it and try to stimulate a government that is some form of secular democracy run by their own people.

We aren't just trying to lead the horse to water, we are also building the water hole. We believe they will drink out of thirst once we leave the vicinity of the water hole.

I'm afraid though, that if too many here in the west repeat the mantra 'there is no solution' and want to retreat from the challenge then short sighted, selfish politicians will exploit those fears when things get tough just to gain power for themselves.

I swear, the democrat party has decided to forsake any good, and any opportunity we have to make serious change in the middle east, just to try and get one of their guys in the white house. For better or for worse 9/11 happened but we reacted in a way that could really bring a sweeping change for the better, yet some people want to declare it's already for the worse and retreat with their favorite son waving the white flag.

Are liberals really that afraid of their own testicles?

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Sun May 16, 2004 11:39 am

Once again Will, you are the voice of reason.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Sun May 16, 2004 2:17 pm

Well said Will.

bash · Post by **bash** » Sun May 16, 2004 5:13 pm

http://app.sprinter.gov.sg/data/pr/2004050603.html

One of the most succinct overviews of the challenges and risks we all face in the War on Terrorism. Excellent primer for those who only bring a mouthful of platitudes to the discussion.

TrueLightGuild · Post by **TrueLightGuild** » Sun May 16, 2004 8:31 pm

I hate to say it but in cases such as this, there are no peaceful solutions. Even the bible says peace will come after certain enemies have been totally destroyed. Even though it says to live in peace and practice peace, there is a time for peace and a time for war. If they are not stopped then there will never be a real peace in the world.

Kyouryuu · Post by **Kyouryuu** » Sun May 16, 2004 9:24 pm

Or more simply, one cannot realize peace without first knowing war.