Undercurrents...

[Nightshade]

Threats tend to lurk under the surface long before someone takes notice and can do something to avoid disaster. Like icebergs, you only see bits on the surface that seem unconnected and non-threatening until it's too late.

2012 may turn out to be an especially nasty year- but not for the reasons you hear in movies or kooky end-time religious predictions.

I'm not exactly a left winger- but this summary of events in this video seems to be reflected in the news I have seen over the last four or five years:



Things may just putter along past 2012, but if the economy doesn't completely collapse (evidenced by other threads you've seen in this forum), we'll be lucky to make it to 2013 and beyond. There is much pain ahead. What form it takes will be largely out of the hands of the common man.

[Tunnelcat]

I have a sneaking suspicion that Iran will be our next mess, if they decide to try and close the Strait of Hormuz.

The economy has been globalized, so I guess that big, hungry military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us about and formed anyway, doesn't want to be left out of the party either and wants a little global war now. It'd be good for bidness and profit. The new global monster has to be fed and we're the meat.

Gawd I'm glad I'm older now. I already went through the "duck and cover" threat of nuclear war crap in the early 60's and history is just going to repeat itself...... again. The one time in my life of worrying about global annihilation was bad enough. I don't want to go through it again.

[CUDA]

I don't want to go through it again.

that threat has been ongoing since before you were born TC. since 1948 infact when Russia detonated their first Bomb. it's just been out of the forefront for a while

[Tunnelcat]

that threat has been ongoing since before you were born TC. since 1948 infact when Russia detonated their first Bomb. it's just been out of the forefront for a while

Before that even. Just watched a NatGeo show on Hiroshima a little while ago. The horrible human suffering and terrible damage that was caused by the only atomic bomb that any nation actually used on another in war was absolutely devastating. The firestorms that ravaged the city and the horrific burns and tissue damage to the people were unspeakable. Straight out of Dante's Inferno, I kid you not! Death was a better option than survival.

The leaders of the world's nations need to be dragged kicking and screaming right into the aftermath of a nuclear bomb to see with their own eyes the results of such a human creation. I don't know why in the hell the nations of this earth even need to think twice about using these things, let alone keep them around, as weapons of war, including the U.S. We should all be crying out; "NOT EVER AGAIN"!

WFT is wrong with the human race? Why are we always stealing from one another, or subjugating one another or killing one another? What's the purpose? War only destroys. It never solves anything and someone always suffers. It's pointless and destructive. And why are we as a nation spending over $600 Billion of our tax dollars on tools of war and death? I just don't damn get it. We're the smartest life form on earth, but we act like the stupidest! We can't even get along or agree on anything, even when the world depends on it. We are willing to kill each other over the most inane of reasons too. Like some despot's dick is bigger than some other despot's dick, or the tried and true, "my religion is better than your religion" bullsh*t, as the most important reasons in the world to start some stupid war. And in this day and age, the tools of death are far more destructive and efficient. We can even kill without getting our hands soiled.

It's becoming more and more apparent that humans may be someone's, something's or even God's, failed experiment that's doomed to die a nasty extinction. All out of hate, greed, avarice and stupidity. Like I said, I'm glad the best part of my life is behind me. I only have death to contend with. The young have to deal with life in the new normal of global everything where no one wants to get along, no one wants to agree or compromise on anything, no one wants to respect anyone else and no one wants to share.

[Ferno]

War is awesome.

[TechPro]

It's becoming more and more apparent that humans may be someone's, something's or even God's, failed experiment that's doomed to die a nasty extinction. All out of hate, greed, avarice and stupidity. Like I said, I'm glad the best part of my life is behind me. I only have death to contend with. The young have to deal with life in the new normal of global everything where no one wants to get along, no one wants to agree or compromise on anything, no one wants to respect anyone else and no one wants to share.

Yeah, it's too bad that instead of trying to help the young, you're complaining right and left, spreading fear and distrust. What's wrong with you? Someone piss in your bran cereal? Try helping instead of trying to tear down.

[ Post made via iPad ]

[woodchip]

that threat has been ongoing since before you were born TC. since 1948 infact when Russia detonated their first Bomb. it's just been out of the forefront for a while

Before that even. Just watched a NatGeo show on Hiroshima a little while ago. The horrible human suffering and terrible damage that was caused by the only atomic bomb that any nation actually used on another in war was absolutely devastating. The firestorms that ravaged the city and the horrific burns and tissue damage to the people were unspeakable. Straight out of Dante's Inferno, I kid you not! Death was a better option than survival.

The human beings on the USS Arizona could identify quite well with what you said.

[Top Gun]

Is arguing that line really going to get anywhere? Maybe we can all just agree that true total war is a horrific thing, and we should do everything in our power to avoid its occurrence in the future. That certainly includes eliminating even the possibility of nuclear weapons usage.

[flip]

Nukes are assured mutual destruction. No way were going backwards from that =/

[CUDA]

Is arguing that line really going to get anywhere? Maybe we can all just agree that true total war is a horrific thing, and we should do everything in our power to avoid its occurrence in the future. That certainly includes eliminating even the possibility of nuclear weapons usage.

OK then if that's your stance then how would you suggest we deal with Iran and their current path towards getting Nuclear weapons. and make no mistake Iran "when" they get those weapons will use them. if not on Israel. they'll give them to someone to use on Us or some other western power in Europe. but they will use them.

[Top Gun]

Did I say we shouldn't deal with them? No. There's a big difference between strategic strikes and the full-scale total war that the world experienced during the 1940s, and the latter was what I spoke against. And in today's world, there's no excuse for anyone actively using a nuclear weapon. Period.

[flip]

North Korea is a far bigger threat than Iran is. I say how ever we deal with Korea is the same way we should deal with Iran. Iran will never be allowed to actually complete a nuclear weapon , and until then it's all fear-mongering and a way to stir up hatred for people you don't know and have never met.

[Tunnelcat]

It's becoming more and more apparent that humans may be someone's, something's or even God's, failed experiment that's doomed to die a nasty extinction. All out of hate, greed, avarice and stupidity. Like I said, I'm glad the best part of my life is behind me. I only have death to contend with. The young have to deal with life in the new normal of global everything where no one wants to get along, no one wants to agree or compromise on anything, no one wants to respect anyone else and no one wants to share.

Yeah, it's too bad that instead of trying to help the young, you're complaining right and left, spreading fear and distrust. What's wrong with you? Someone piss in your bran cereal? Try helping instead of trying to tear down.

Many of you will have to forgive me. I'm not the little Mary Sunshine like I was when I was young. I'm more of a Debbie Downer now.

Yes TechPro, 2 events pissed in my cereal. One about 15 years ago and the other more than a year ago and which are still affecting me. I've turned into a bitter old grouch, although not willingly. I've reached the point in life that can be is aptly called the "F*ck You Fifties" for a lot of women. I haven't become one of those sweet little old ladies that I was hoping to turn into after menopause. I've become the nightmare that most men, especially married men, come to fear. 15 years of continuing poor sleep, fatigue, anxiety, muscle pain, some probable silent strokes and near constant headaches tend to take a toll on a women and nothing is going to change my new normal. If I come off as too bitchy, I'm sorry. It's not out of spite, or hate, or even on purpose, it's just the way I am now, although sometimes it's worse than others. Menopause has altered my mind and body in a bad way. I hate my life right now and I am really depressed about it. And to top off that mess, my husband had a major stroke about a year and a half ago and is now almost blind, can't navigate around in the world, can't drive, forgets things 5 seconds after he does something, gets angry a lot and realizes he's going to die soon, just like his father and grandfather did before him. So my cake has been thoroughly blue-funk iced. Sorry for the confessional here.

If you'll bare with me, I'm not trying to spread fear and distrust anymore than ThunderBunny did by posting that original link in this thread. I was just trying to point out the obvious nature of the human animal and how we treat our fellow man and how we're never going to solve our problems now anymore than we did in the past. Wash, rinse, repeat. Depressing. There are now nearly 7 billion humans living on earth. So formerly little squabbles between small tribes are now going to end up as global nation-affecting nightmares, affecting everyone on earth, in a very bad way. Is that what we really want? I don't see anything different with human nature now as was in the past. If we don't find a way to change our hard wired-in nature of aggression towards others, we may end up with global annihilation and extinction just because of shear size.

]The human beings on the USS Arizona could identify quite well with what you said.

WWII was justified for the attacks on our military bases, since the Japanese did attack us first. The immolation of around 150,000 civilians in Hiroshima and 75,000 in Nagasaki, was not justified. It was the overkill of non-combatants, families including women and children while trying to kill those few combatants around them, in a very terrible way. My point is that if we decide that we have to fight some pointless war, we all need to get down and dirty and get a personal stake in it and get our hands bloodied doing it. The clinical dropping of a bomb that can wipe out whole cities takes away those visceral bloody reasons that show us why we shouldn't go to war in the first place.

[woodchip]

]The human beings on the USS Arizona could identify quite well with what you said.

WWII was justified for the attacks on our military bases, since the Japanese did attack us first. The immolation of around 150,000 civilians in Hiroshima and 75,000 in Nagasaki, was not justified. It was the overkill of non-combatants, families including women and children while trying to kill those few combatants around them, in a very terrible way. My point is that if we decide that we have to fight some pointless war, we all need to get down and dirty and get a personal stake in it and get our hands bloodied doing it. The clinical dropping of a bomb that can wipe out whole cities takes away those visceral bloody reasons that show us why we shouldn't go to war in the first place.

You would rather we had invaded, fire bombed the piss out of all their cities, used ships like the USS Missouri to throw volkswagon sized shells at them, marines with flame throwers to immolate them and fighter planes to strafe the lines of refugee's? How many more lives would of been lost that way including the American troops involved? It was a tough choice but Truman saw a even more horrifying end than the use of nukes wrought.

Thanks also for the insight of why you are the way you are. And there I thought you were just a flaming liberal . I divorced my wife because everyday was a argument and she had turned to alcohol to help her menopause. At least you are willing to talk about it. She wasn't.

[Tunnelcat]

You would rather we had invaded, fire bombed the piss out of all their cities, used ships like the USS Missouri to throw volkswagon sized shells at them, marines with flame throwers to immolate them and fighter planes to strafe the lines of refugee's? How many more lives would of been lost that way including the American troops involved? It was a tough choice but Truman saw a even more horrifying end than the use of nukes wrought.

We did that up to that point in the war, so why didn't we keep going? Japan was losing and morale was flagging among the population. We could have stepped back, blockaded the country with the help of other nations (it is an island) and let attrition work.

Bigger and bigger weapons only desensitizes everyone to war and makes it more palatable to those at home. Don't like some despot somewhere? Just wipe him and his followers out with the push of a button. Quick, clean and simple. Out of sight, out of mind.The mess is left elsewhere. Where's the work in that? At least until someone uses that same weapon on US. If we want to go to war, we need to see the blood and get a good healthy dose of revulsion.

Thanks also for the insight of why you are the way you are. And there I thought you were just a flaming liberal . I divorced my wife because everyday was a argument and she had turned to alcohol to help her menopause. At least you are willing to talk about it. She wasn't.

I'm sorry your wife didn't realize what was happening to her body. A lot of women go into self-denial and self-loathing when they get into the meno crazies. Not all women have problems, but a good majority do. And it's most women's first good dose of testosterone in their systems too. Nasty combination. Modern medicine still offers little help either. Many women deal with it by getting angry about it all the time. It sure altered my disposition. But fortunately for my husband, not all the time.

I used to be so sweet and nice , but now, when the cycle of the moon is just right, I become a raving maniac. And I can't do a damn thing about it either. My husband is a Saint for putting up with me and keeping me around.

[CUDA]

Did I say we shouldn't deal with them? No. There's a big difference between strategic strikes and the full-scale total war that the world experienced during the 1940s, and the latter was what I spoke against. And in today's world, there's no excuse for anyone actively using a nuclear weapon. Period.

You failed to answer my question.

[Top Gun]

That's a question I don't think anyone can definitively answer at the moment, because it all depends on how things progress down the line. It may be the case that military action against Iran becomes necessary, or alternatively, the continued ratcheting-up of international pressure could get them to blink. Only time will tell.

[Nightshade]

This little graphic shows how the US outspends everyone on 'defense.'

What is interesting isn't the amount being spent - it is the amount of INCREASE in military spending.

Notice any 'little' jump in the graph below?



China has expanded its military spending by over 400% in just FOUR years!

I don't think this has to do much with 'defense.'

[dissent]

Hmm ... Saudi Arabia and Iran. Could we see a little Sunni-Shi'a turf war across the Persian Gulf sometime in the not too distant future?

[Burlyman]

War is awesome.

Back away from the controller....

[Tunnelcat]

War is awesome.

Apparently war wasn't a very pleasant experience for this Army vet. He went mental.

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-01-02/just ... PM:JUSTICE

[SilverFJ]

War is the method of preservence of one's way of life.
I think China might do it for resources, and whoever they attack will be for the former.

[Ferno]

War is awesome.

Apparently war wasn't a very pleasant experience for this Army vet. He went mental.

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-01-02/just ... PM:JUSTICE

yeah that'll happen. but you ever stop to wonder just why it is these young vets go apeshit while the old vets seem to keep their sanity?

[woodchip]

Younger vets just don't have the life experience (read maturity) to handle what they went thru in war. During WW2, on the Bataan Death March, it was generally the younger troops who just gave up and died. Perhaps the older vets have more self discipline or ....who knows, maybe the brain and psyche just needs more time to develop.

[Spidey]

Somebody killed another Iranian nuclear scientist…I wonder who.

[flip]

What will happen if Iran executes Amir Hekmati, former US marine?

We will destroy all the talent of your Nuclear Program . WHich is something I had thought awhile back. There can't be that many people in Iran with the ability to make it happen.

EDIT: Kudo's to our current Commander-in-Chief for a very pointed pre-emptive strike.

[Ferno]

Younger vets just don't have the life experience (read maturity) to handle what they went thru in war. During WW2, on the Bataan Death March, it was generally the younger troops who just gave up and died. Perhaps the older vets have more self discipline or ....who knows, maybe the brain and psyche just needs more time to develop.

bull★■◆●. there were many WW2 vets that were deployed when they were eighteen. They had maybe a smidgen more life experience than today's kids.

[Top Gun]

If anything else, I think the nature of the wars in question is a big part of things. Soldiers in WWII were fighting a conventional war against a legitimate global threat, with almost universal domestic support. While war is about as hellish no matter how or when you fight it, at least there's that base to fall back on from a psychological standpoint. In contrast, the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq have largely consisted of counter-insurgency actions, which are pretty much the most difficult combat missions to undertake, and the overall goals of each conflict were far more vaguely defined. There are definitely similarities one can draw to Vietnam, which I believe was the first conflict that saw PTSD as a widespread recognized condition.

[woodchip]

Younger vets just don't have the life experience (read maturity) to handle what they went thru in war. During WW2, on the Bataan Death March, it was generally the younger troops who just gave up and died. Perhaps the older vets have more self discipline or ....who knows, maybe the brain and psyche just needs more time to develop.

bull★■◆●. there were many WW2 vets that were deployed when they were eighteen. They had maybe a smidgen more life experience than today's kids.

Are you and I on the same planet? Or is your reading comprehension non-existent?

[Ferno]

you just told me the WW2 vets were more mature when they were shipped overseas. How the hell does three years (15 to 18) give anyone an edge on what goes on in war? you think they somehow can prepare for it? and as for your 'younger troops just gave up and died', LOL. you actually think they would just say 'you know what, I give up'?

absolute horseshit on both accounts. wanna try again?

[woodchip]

you just told me the WW2 vets were more mature when they were shipped overseas.

Just where did I say any such thing?

How the hell does three years (15 to 18) give anyone an edge on what goes on in war?

Where did I say anything about 3 years age difference?

you think they somehow can prepare for it? and as for your 'younger troops just gave up and died', LOL. you actually think they would just say 'you know what, I give up'?

"'Doc' Brown was nearly 40 in 1942 when he endured the harrowing 65-mile trek. He often wondered why captives so much younger and stronger perished, while he went on."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... d-105.html

Yes Ferno, when things get bad enough people do give up.

absolute horseshit on both accounts. wanna try again?

Again you seem to have a hard time understanding the horrors of war. Why not read a few books on the Bataan death march....it might give you a whole new perspective.