But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”[a]
What did the devil and the archangel Michael over over the body of Moses. Now Moses was dead, his body was obviously rotting. Must have been talking about a new body. Does he get one or not? Why would he not get one? Well, when Moses hit that rock in his own strength and power, he did exactly what the magicians in Egypt had done. Now there's a dispute. Binding and loosing has nothing to do with spirtual warfare. It's how things are put together, and Moses, having realized that, knew that he had the ability himself. If he just believed, but what he didn't know was that God provides the body. Satan didn't realize that either. Freewill cannot be taken away once given, but the hope of receiving a new body after this one dies is solely in the hands of the Creator.
Personally, I don't think the "how" matters. It's the why that got Moses in trouble. Moses made a couple of mistakes that are recorded and none of them caused him to "lose his salvation". (to put it in the vernacular)
That's a curious passage to be sure. I'm thinking that it's quoted from another Hebrew text that we don't have. I'll see if I can find anything. Incidentally, that's Jude 1:9.
Well, I would expect an unbeliever to either look at it and exclaim how nut's that guy flip is or say, who knows. A believer, I would expect to see if it lines up with the word and if it did, to agree with it, if not to vehemently oppose it.
I don't see anything in the word about having the power in ourselves to do this or that, supernaturally, and the notion of releasing it through faith kind of dips toward the unscriptural faith movements in our day that separate faith from the will and power of God. I also don't see anything in the word to indicate that binding or loosing pertains to anything but spiritual warfare.
Ok, first thing I see is Moses was told by God to speak to the rock, and water would come forth. Instead, and in his anger, he struck the rock with his rod. Water still came forth, but Moses was prevented from going over to the promiseland because of it. On that and the scripture that says with faith nothing is impossible and the fact that it says the magicians in the egyptian court also had rods that transformed into serpents. I'll move ahead if we agree here.
Sorry Duper, I missed your last post as a signature. No, he didn't lose his salvation obviously as we see him with Jesus and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration. He obviously got his body .
I'll just go ahead and say this too about binding and loosing. In the text it is mentioned, he had just previously talked about how he had taken 3 loaves of bread and fed 5000. Alot of evangelicals then go around thinking they should rebuke and bind the devil and loose blessings everywhere they go, but it's really talking about how things are made from pieces.
But, when the archangel Michael is arguing with Satan, he doesn't even accuse Satan of lieing, he just simply says "The Lord Rebuke You". Satan is void of form now. That is why legion asked to be let into the pigs. I think of it kinda like when an amputee loses an arm, but they say in their mind it's like it's still there. But it's not.
flip wrote:I'll just go ahead and say this too about binding and loosing. In the text it is mentioned, he had just previously talked about how he had taken 3 loaves of bread and fed 5000. Alot of evangelicals then go around thinking they should rebuke and bind the devil and loose blessings everywhere they go, but it's really talking about how things are made from pieces.
But, when the archangel Michael is arguing with Satan, he doesn't even accuse Satan of lieing, he just simply says "The Lord Rebuke You". Satan is void of form now. That is why legion asked to be let into the pigs. I think of it kinda like when an amputee loses an arm, but they say in their mind it's like it's still there. But it's not.
I shy away from making generalizations out of anything that Jesus did, or anything else in the Bible for that matter that is not presented in general form. (I assume you're referring to Matthew 16, from my search.) Jesus said...
John 20 wrote:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
Why do you assume that "The Lord Rebuke You" speaks of Satan being cast out?
What scripture says that with faith nothing is impossible? And faith in what/whom?
after reading all of Jude 1, I took it to mean effectually. judge not.
if I'm misunderstanding what you're getting at, or miss interpreted that verse, forgive me. it's 1AM and I've had a long hard week at work
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Well no. I've always said the word has one literal meaning and a countless number of applications . When I read that verse, I first off wondered why the devil and Michael would be arguing over a rotting corpse. It didn't say they argued over his soul, but his body. Yet his 'body' was ashes to ashes and dust to dust. So, next thought is that they must be arguing over if Mose's gets a 'new' body or not.
It would be interesting to know what others understanding of binding and loosing is before I give my understanding.
EDIT: Your right of course Cuda, do not judge down to not even accusing Satan, so the current understanding of binding and loosing is in opposition to Jude 1:9.
I think it would be a mistake to read anything into this text outside the original context that Jude is using. It's being used as an example to not overstep authority even when you reside in Christ.
Remember that we have no real power outside the Lord's, no real authority outside the Lord's. So in light of this passage specifically: don't be quip about "binding and loosing". and after 30 years as a Christian, I've learn to steer clear of anyone teaching binding and loosing theology. They're typically out of balance. That is to say that their teaching is "lop-sided".
Don't worry about binding anything that hasn't manifested as an entity. Yes, as a possession or similar. If it's just a behavior or some such, take it to prayer with fasting. There's anything that is within you after receiving Christ is already "bound" by His sacrifice.
Having gone through all this back in the late 80's myself. The whole binding and loosing thing is an awful like little kids running around the yard playing "cops and robbers" and yelling "Bang! Bang! Bang!" ... well that's the mental image I get now at anyrate.
Well, that's the thing Duper. I'm not talking about binding and loosing in the same way as you are. I'm speaking in the context of binding and loosing atom's, which seems more in keeping with the text than any kind of "spiritual warfare". I think Jesus, when describing the "keys to the Kingdom" in that same passage is talking about how this earthly kingdom is made out of and bound together by atom's. He then uses an example of how he created enough bread for 5000 out of a handful of bread. He kept breaking it into pieces. Then warns against the Pharisee's leavening, or tainting of that teaching, which is everything is made of pieces, or atom's.
EDIT: Which I also believe is our likeness to God. The ability to understand atom's and molecules and combine them to make new structures. No monkey can do that.
Honestly, what are other christians views on this? I admit it's out there, and without laying out every single piece of evidence, which maybe I should have done, it does seem disjointed. I'm just curious about what he means by "Keys of the Kingdom" and binding and loosing. Can anyone here tell me?
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. When I read that verse, I first off wondered why the devil and Michael would be arguing over a rotting corpse. It didn't say they argued over his soul, but his body. Yet his 'body' was ashes to ashes and dust to dust. So, next thought is that they must be arguing over if Mose's gets a 'new' body or not.