another out loud thought

[callmeslick]

.....spurred by the Rev.Robertson

http://www.cannabis.net/articles/jesus-cannabis.html


I am off to my Sportsman's Club for the weekend, will await the commentary when I return.

[flip]

Weed I don't know, but I do know he was frequently accused of hanging out with drunkards and sinners and was asked by John the Baptist's disciples why they fasted and he and his disciples partied and had a good time. One thing I know is I started celebrating too early, but I didn't really know what all the prize was either.

[Sergeant Thorne]

The word "sorcery" used in the Bible is similar to our "pharmacy". I don't believe that Jesus was involved in sorcery. Not to mention that there are no direct references to such activity in the Bible. Only to the drinking of wine. I would also look to the reason why people use things like marijuana. Jesus did not live for himself. His entire life was sacrifice to the will of the Father. He was

3b A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.

He didn't even eat when the work of the Lord came first. People can say what they will (there will be a reckoning), but the evidence just isn't there, and never has been (this is not lost on them), in my mind. They try to take behavior that is scripturally very un-Christ-like, and attribute it to him in order to bring him down to their level (or just bring him down, period).

The Jesus presented in the Bible did not seek his own pleasure.

[flip]

Eh, I'm not gonna argue for the godliness of smoking weed or drinkinf wine. I do know that the normal human body will start feeling the effects of alcohol within 2 drinks and I add this for perspective:

Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”

12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”

13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides.[d] If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

15 Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”

16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

[Spidey]

Yea, anything that feels good is surely forbad.

[Sergeant Thorne]

Don't be a knucklehead, Spidey. There's nothing inherently wrong with things that feel good, but if good feelings are what is used to discriminate between wrong and right--do and do not, then you'll end up condemned by God 9 times out of 10. Just about everything that God tells us is wrong feels good to do (Satan has a hand in this). It feels good to kill someone because they crossed you. It feels good to commit adultery. It feels good to worship things that are not Gods. If you insist on doing what's right--doing things God's way, you're not campaigning against what feels good, but often-times (not always) what feels good is thrown out the window because God tells us it isn't good. When was the last time you turned down something that would have felt good because you knew it wasn't a good idea--wouldn't have felt good later on (to put it simply)? You got something against things that feel good, Spidey?

[Spidey]

I would think after all of our discussions, you would already know my position on “right and wrong” My morality is based on when something does harm to someone else, I reserve the right to harm myself, because I do not believe that I am the property of something that has the right to protect their property.

That goes for the state as well as any given divinity.

I don’t find any clear connection between what feels good and what is right or wrong, most of those examples you gave would in fact, not make me feel good.

[Sergeant Thorne]

My morality is based on when something does harm to someone else, I reserve the right to harm myself, because I do not believe that I am the property of something that has the right to protect their property.

The second biggest problem with this being your lack of foresight or ability to determine what does harm to others and to even to what degree doing harm to yourself does harm to others. In fact when people do things that harm others, or harm others in the things they do to themselves, they are notoriously in a degree of denial about the effects.

most of those examples you gave would in fact, not make me feel good.

Then you're either A, not human, or B, opposed to them on other grounds to a degree that effects whether or not you would derive enjoyment from the things you would not do. The truth is you derive no enjoyment from the thought of doing those things (neither do I), but there is enjoyment derived in the doing of them by those that have.

I would note that the idea of God protecting his property is not found in scripture. God's motives have always been presented in the scriptures as stemming from mercy and love toward beings that he created with a free will (able to destroy themselves if they choose to). I strongly agree with your sentiment about the state.


I said "second biggest problem" at the beginning of this because the first biggest problem with defining morality according to your own rules is that the God is the judge, not the proposed majority of people you leave mostly unharmed.

[vision]

Just about everything that God tells us is wrong feels good to do ... It feels good to kill someone because they crossed you. It feels good to commit adultery. It feels good to worship things that are not Gods.

lolwut? Who thinks those feel good?

I guess I wouldn't know if they felt good since I've never done them, but they don't sound fun at all.

[Heretic]

There is paradox in free will.

Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual will be good or bad? If thou sayest He knows, then it necessarily follows that man is compelled to act as God knew beforehand he would act, otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect.…

If God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, there can be no free will. God would know what choice a certain individual will make tomorrow and thus has actually determined those choices.

[CUDA]

If God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, there can be no free will. God would know what choice a certain individual will make tomorrow and thus has actually determined those choices.

this makes no sense. just because God is...
omniscient , the ability to know everything
omnipotent , the ability to control everything
omnipresent, the ability to be everywhere.

does not control the free will of man. your logic is flawed.

you've just entered into the Calvinist debate on predestination.

[flip]

"Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment,"

I think alot of goodness gets missed in debates over morality, when it really is simple. The whole thing boils down to getting a new body to dwell in, a tabernacle. Jesus came in the flesh, showed his earthly bodied destroyed, then 3 days later reappears with another one. One he bought for all believers. If someone believes that, then they live in such a ways as to attain it. God will convict people of sin, that is expressly the Holy Spirit's job. We are to show them the Way.

[Spidey]

And you see Thorne, your biggest problem is speaking down to people, sort of like slick…but different.

[flip]

The Tabernacle (Hebrew: משכן‎, mishkan, "residence" or "dwelling place"), according to the Hebrew Torah/Old Testament, was the portable dwelling place for the divine presence from the time of the Exodus from Egypt through the conquering of the land of Canaan. Built to specifications revealed by God (Yahweh) to Moses at Mount Sinai, it accompanied the Israelites on their wanderings in the wilderness and their conquest of the Promised Land. It contained the Ark of the Covenant which was eventually placed in the First Temple in Jerusalem. The First Temple in Jerusalem superseded it as the dwelling-place of God among the Israelites. There is no further mention of the Tabernacle after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Babylonians

Col 2:16 Let no (pagan) man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Col 2:17 Which are a shadow (shadows teach us about the real object that is to come or came) of things to come; but the body of the Messiah.

[flip]

We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

These are all just reasons why I believe the way I do. I could go on and on..... but it gets obnoxious then

[Tunnelcat]

does not control the free will of man. your logic is flawed.

How do you know CUDA? There have been quite a few events in my life that I swear that some higher being may have had a hand in determining the outcome. I've found these events to be a mixed bag of good and bad, maybe even sometimes happening just to teach me a lesson about myself.

[flip]

Heh, yep I bet there's not one person here that wouldn't say that either. I think that's where the whole concept of pre-destination gets warped. I see pre-destination exactly as TC just described. That, unless there is someone who can see ahead and intervene, you continue on the same course. So God can look and see a situation, and know exactly which way to nudge it for a positive outcome. He just pre-determined your destination by intervening on your behalf. Well, that's my understanding of pre-destination.

[Heretic]

Well pre-destination is in Revelations Chapter 14.

[flip]

You'll have to mesh that out for me Heretic. I was referring to Paul's use of the word.

[Heretic]

According to Revelations Chapter 14 talks about 144,000 that will be admitted into the kingdom of heaven. This is also mentioned in Chapter 7 giving you the breakdown between the tribes but also talks about a great multitude that no one could count.

pre-destination? Maybe I reaching.

[flip]

Yeah, I'd say you would need at least 30-40 correlating verses to form an opinion with.

[CUDA]

does not control the free will of man. your logic is flawed.

How do you know CUDA? There have been quite a few events in my life that I swear that some higher being may have had a hand in determining the outcome. I've found these events to be a mixed bag of good and bad, maybe even sometimes happening just to teach me a lesson about myself.

I'm not saying that God does not influence or even control what happens in our lives, what I'm saying is that he allows our free will .

there is an old testament story about a Jewish king Hezekiah. God told him that he was going to take him home. Hezekiah whined and whined because he did not want that. so the Lord allowed Hezekiah to stay. for another few years, but during that time Hezekiah fathered a son Manasseh. who became king of Israel and re-instituted pagan worship and reversed the religious reforms made by his father Hezekiah; for which he is condemned by several religious texts.

II Kings 21:1-18 and II Chronicles 32:33-33:20. He is also mentioned in Jeremiah 15:4

God Allowed Hezekiah's free will and as a result Israel suffered
there are dozens of other examples of God allowing peoples free will.

[CUDA]

According to Revelations Chapter 14 talks about 144,000 that will be admitted into the kingdom of heaven. This is also mentioned in Chapter 7 giving you the breakdown between the tribes but also talks about a great multitude that no one could count.

pre-destination? Maybe I reaching.

you may wish to re-read that again. that's not what it says.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

this verse IMO destroys the whole predestination theory.

[Heretic]

14:1 I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him a number, one hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

14:2 I heard a sound from heaven, like the sound of many waters, and like the sound of a great thunder. The sound which I heard was like that of harpists playing on their harps.

14:3 They sing a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the one hundred forty-four thousand, those who had been redeemed out of the earth.

14:4 These are those who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed by Jesus from among men, the first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

14:5 In their mouth was found no lie, for they are blameless.

14:6 I saw an angel flying in mid heaven, having an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people.

14:7 He said with a loud voice, "Fear the Lord, and give him glory; for the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and the springs of waters!"

14:8 Another, a second angel, followed, saying, "Babylon the great has fallen, which has made all the nations to drink of the wine of the wrath of her sexual immorality."

14:9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or on his hand,

14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

14:11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

14:12 Here is the patience of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

14:13 I heard the voice from heaven saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them."

14:14 I looked, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud one sitting like a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

14:15 Another angel came out from the temple, crying with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, "Send forth your sickle, and reap; for the hour to reap has come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe!"

14:16 He who sat on the cloud thrust his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

14:17 Another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven. He also had a sharp sickle.

14:18 Another angel came out from the altar, he who has power over fire, and he called with a great voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Send forth your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for the earth's grapes are fully ripe!"

14:19 The angel thrust his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

14:20 The winepress was trodden outside of the city, and blood came out from the winepress, even to the bridles of the horses, as far as one thousand six hundred stadia.

Edit

so the Lord allowed Hezekiah to stay

It was God's will that allow him to stay.

[flip]

I'd suggest forgetting everything you've heard and anything you take for granted, and re-prove it for yourself. The Bible is not subject to private interpretation, even just one book from one author. You have to see if ALL the authors agree on it.

[Heretic]

<------------read my name.

[flip]

Heh

[Sergeant Thorne]

And you see Thorne, your biggest problem is speaking down to people, sort of like slick…but different.

Being twice as intelligent and 10x as observant as most people does have its pitfalls. I have always felt incomplete in that I was not born filthy rich as well.

Obviously you took offense (10x as observant), but at what point did you feel I was speaking down to you?

[Heretic]

I'd suggest forgetting everything you've heard and anything you take for granted, and reprove it for yourself. The Bible is not subject to private interpretation, even just one book from one author. You have to see if ALL the authors agree on it.

I'm a little confused about the above. You tell to me reprove it for myself. Then say it's not open for private interpretation. I believe this is flawed. I believe my relationship with Jesus and God is a very private relationship. After all I'm the one who will be judge by my own actions.

John 16:13-15

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Psalms 25:4-5

4Shew me thy ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths.

5Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou art the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day.

Most the time when discussing the bible here it devolves into my bible is better than your bible. Let's not do that please.

[flip]

Awesome!

EDIT:I'm gonna follow my own advice and re-read again, but with a different perspective in mind.

[callmeslick]

Wow! Heck of job on that tangent......

I just read the thread twice, and think I could stand to roll a fattie and kick back. Wow, again!