Da Do Run Run

[woodchip]

Crystals 1963...great dance song. But I digress. Seems the run on Greek banks has started with no positive help coming in from the Euro Zone banks. Not to delve too deeply in the Greek banks relationships with the Euro Central Bank, the question is how far will the unease in Greek banks by the depositors trickle out to the rest of Europe? Already the Dow Jones has dropped a 1000 points so the nervousness is affecting America. At what point will you start pulling money out of your bank? And do you still think the Socialist model of governance is viable in the long run?

[flip]

Heh, it's a huge house of cards everywhere you look.

[Top Gun]

Greece had many other fundamental issues beyond its too-expansive welfare state, although that certainly didn't help matters. I remember reading a shocking article a year or two ago about how tax-dodging is practically a national pastime there. It's hard to run a government in the black if nothing's getting paid into it.

[woodchip]

Greece had many other fundamental issues beyond its too-expansive welfare state, although that certainly didn't help matters. I remember reading a shocking article a year or two ago about how tax-dodging is practically a national pastime there. It's hard to run a government in the black if nothing's getting paid into it.

It is hard to take in revenue when the populace is so overtaxed that everyone looks to hide what they make or take it off shore. The role of govt. should be to create a environment where businesses want to come and thus supply jobs. The increase revenues will then supply more tax dollars to the govt. Socialist just seem to think more taxation is the way to handle deficit spending when in truth it creates less.

[Tunnelcat]

Well, we'll see if your theory pans out woodchip. Golden Dawn, Greece's far, far right political party has finally got a toe hold in parliament. Kind of like what you want to see happen in the U.S. by trying to bring the Tea Party to power. So now that the Greeks let in the crazy Rightists, who by the way, believe that the Nazis DIDN'T use poison gas on the Jews during the Holocaust, and that land mines should be placed on the border with Turkey, and that all immigrants should be deported and that second generation immigrants shouldn't have voting rights, or any rights for that matter, it will be interesting to see if these nutcases can solve all their problems, or create a bigger disaster in the process. I betting on the bigger disaster, or maybe world war, like the one Germany started years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_%28Greece%29

[woodchip]

OTOH, Greece may be so far gone even Slick couldn't save them

[Top Gun]

Greece had many other fundamental issues beyond its too-expansive welfare state, although that certainly didn't help matters. I remember reading a shocking article a year or two ago about how tax-dodging is practically a national pastime there. It's hard to run a government in the black if nothing's getting paid into it.

It is hard to take in revenue when the populace is so overtaxed that everyone looks to hide what they make or take it off shore. The role of govt. should be to create a environment where businesses want to come and thus supply jobs. The increase revenues will then supply more tax dollars to the govt. Socialist just seem to think more taxation is the way to handle deficit spending when in truth it creates less.

Except that wasn't what happened, at all. Nice try though.

[woodchip]

Greece had many other fundamental issues beyond its too-expansive welfare state, although that certainly didn't help matters. I remember reading a shocking article a year or two ago about how tax-dodging is practically a national pastime there. It's hard to run a government in the black if nothing's getting paid into it.

It is hard to take in revenue when the populace is so overtaxed that everyone looks to hide what they make or take it off shore. The role of govt. should be to create a environment where businesses want to come and thus supply jobs. The increase revenues will then supply more tax dollars to the govt. Socialist just seem to think more taxation is the way to handle deficit spending when in truth it creates less.

Except that wasn't what happened, at all. Nice try though.

Care to give us your astute version or are you just a habituated nay-sayer?

[Top Gun]

Read and learn. This isn't the specific article I read (it was a more personal multi-page account, centered around a Greek Orthodox monastery), but it paints the same picture.

[Spidey]

But in the end, it all boils down to the same thing…spending more than you take in, and that looney idea that governments don’t have the same fiscal restraints as any household or business.

[Top Gun]

Except in this case it's more like your company only paying you two-thirds of your salary, even though you had budgeted your household around that full amount. I do think Greece took things too far in the realm of pensions and such, but at the same time, their hands were extremely tied by how little money was actually making its way to them.

[Tunnelcat]

But in the end, it all boils down to the same thing…spending more than you take in, and that looney idea that governments don’t have the same fiscal restraints as any household or business.

It didn't help that as Greece borrowed more and more, they were charged by the banks more and more at higher and higher interest rates. So if Greece was becoming a risky loan client, why didn't these greedy bastards just shut off the spigot, instead of putting them more and more into debt and bankrupting everyone? Sounds like loan sharking to me.

[woodchip]

Read and learn. This isn't the specific article I read (it was a more personal multi-page account, centered around a Greek Orthodox monastery), but it paints the same picture.

Well I read and did learn....that the Greek govt. is more incompetent than I thought. For example, from your link:

"The “shadow economy”—business that’s legal but off the books"

So why didn't the govt. make this illegal? Then we have:

"Greece, it seems, has struggled with the first rule of a healthy tax system: enforce the law. People are more likely to be honest if they feel there’s a reasonable chance that dishonesty will be detected and punished. But Greek tax officials were notoriously easy to bribe with a fakelaki (small envelope) of cash. There was little political pressure for tougher enforcement"

I guess I don't even have to make much commentary on this one. In short the Greek govt set itself up to go bankrupt and are now facing that fact.

[woodchip]

But in the end, it all boils down to the same thing…spending more than you take in, and that looney idea that governments don’t have the same fiscal restraints as any household or business.

It didn't help that as Greece borrowed more and more, they were charged by the banks more and more at higher and higher interest rates. So if Greece was becoming a risky loan client, why didn't these greedy bastards just shut off the spigot, instead of putting them more and more into debt and bankrupting everyone? Sounds like loan sharking to me.

What happened is the Euro banking system knew if Greece failed it may very well drag the rest of the European economy along with it. The Greek govt. kept borrowing because, well, how would the Govt leaders have the money to keep paying themselves. As my reply to TG shows, the Greek govt was rife with corruption and lets face it, the people signing for the high risk loans will never be the one responsible for paying them back. In short you are seeing what irresponsible and corrupted governance leads to.

[CUDA]

Well, we'll see if your theory pans out woodchip. Golden Dawn, Greece's far, far right political party has finally got a toe hold in parliament. Kind of like what you want to see happen in the U.S. by trying to bring the Tea Party to power. So now that the Greeks let in the crazy Rightists, who by the way, believe that the Nazis DIDN'T use poison gas on the Jews during the Holocaust, and that land mines should be placed on the border with Turkey, and that all immigrants should be deported and that second generation immigrants shouldn't have voting rights, or any rights for that matter, it will be interesting to see if these nutcases can solve all their problems, or create a bigger disaster in the process. I betting on the bigger disaster, or maybe world war, like the one Germany started years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_%28Greece%29

way to label all right wingers as Nazi's there TC. pathetic

maybe for once in your life you should try to make a point about something instead of trying the ad hominem Attucks. you just make yourself sound like a hateful individual ALL THE TIME and nobody takes your arguments seriously because of it. don't you get that?

[roid]

words

...

[CUDA]

words

...

Does the truth bother you roid

[Spidey]

Except in this case it's more like your company only paying you two-thirds of your salary, even though you had budgeted your household around that full amount. I do think Greece took things too far in the realm of pensions and such, but at the same time, their hands were extremely tied by how little money was actually making its way to them.

True, but I believe the price the Greek people should have paid for being tax delinquent was lack of services…not the wholesale destruction of their economy.

Nah tc, sharks have much better collection methods.

[roid]

words

...

Does the truth bother you roid

you said that tunnelcat is not to be taken seriously because she's constantly a hateful person. Which is kindof rediculous, this is tunnelcat, she's very polite.
But how you described her is kindof.... exactly how many see you (and your cohorts: woodchip, spidey, thorne, thunderbunny) CUDA. That's what left me so dumbstruck that you could say that.
i mean talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

It's like Neo telling Lothar that he's a dumbass who no-one takes seriously. No man - IT'S THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
Why did you even say that to Tunnelcat man? Are you trying to troll or what?

I'm sitting here going... "Tide goes in... Tide goes... out? What on earth are you talking about O'Reilly"

I mean. How could you say that tunnelcat is a hateful person, tunnelcat of all people?! What

[roid]

And do you actually think that Holocaust deniers aren't nutcases? That's what you highlighted and took offence to. Tunnelcat said that these people are nutcases and you are all like "omg how dare you".

seriously man? You are going to stand up for these people?

[Spidey]

Roid…you are so ★■◆●ing ignorant….

Woodchip wouldn’t give me the time of day, if he were a clock…..
CUDA doesn’t like me because I make fun of god…..
ST thinks I’m an ignorant fool….

And ThunderBunny and I never agree on anything!

We may all be hated by you and your kind, but we are in no way "cohorts".

[roid]

i never see you debating with one another. in threads i'm in, you are all on the same side of the argument.

[CUDA]

And do you actually think that Holocaust deniers aren't nutcases? That's what you highlighted and took offence to. Tunnelcat said that these people are nutcases and you are all like "omg how dare you".

seriously man? You are going to stand up for these people?

you cannot be serious, what I highlighted was TC making a BROAD generalization about the right. as she ALWAYS does, which you apparently missed

TC hates the right, FACT, she hates Christians, FACT and she a Misandry FACT much like TG, Zuruck, and you, (1st 2 not the last)(however your tone has changed "somewhat" since you've comeback) you guys spew it with each post. unfortunately we on BOTH side have become so blind to that fact that we are caught up in the hate part and calling names part that we will NEVER have a fruitful discussion. it becomes about our own selfish wants instead of truly listening to what the other person has to say and then like adults agreeing to disagree, and at times I'm as guilty as the rest

EXAMPLE

Well, we'll see if your theory pans out woodchip. Golden Dawn, Greece's far, far right political party has finally got a toe hold in parliament. Kind of like what you want to see happen in the U.S. by trying to bring the Tea Party to power. So now that the Greeks let in the crazy Rightists, who by the way, believe that the Nazis DIDN'T use poison gas on the Jews during the Holocaust, and that land mines should be placed on the border with Turkey, and that all immigrants should be deported and that second generation immigrants shouldn't have voting rights, or any rights for that matter, it will be interesting to see if these nutcases can solve all their problems, or create a bigger disaster in the process. I betting on the bigger disaster, or maybe world war, like the one Germany started years ago.

Well, we'll see if your theory pans out woodchip. Golden Dawn, Greece's far, far right political party has finally got a toe hold in parliament. Kind of like what you want to see happen in the U.S. by trying to bring the Tea Party to power. So now that the Greeks vote in conservatives, it will be interesting to see if they can solve all their problems, or create a bigger disaster in the process.

it says the same thing, but the hatred and the flamebate isn't there. it's called civility. It's not a sign of weakness

[roid]

Just because in the American conservative media landscape it's acceptable to use the word "Liberal" as a slur, doesn't mean the word "Conservative" is thrown around like a slur by the opposition.
Those rightists TunnelCat was talking about were crazy rightists, the reasons they were crazy were all of the reasons you highlighted. I did NOT take it as her saying that "rightists are all crazy".

The Tea Party however does seem pretty crazy to me. Maybe we could have a civil discussion about that.

[CUDA]

if it was just that one post then I'd agree with you. but it's not with TC, with her EVERY post has a derogatory comment in it when it concerns one of those 3 groups

[roid]

i suppose i've accused others of worse, i'll try to keep an eye out.

[woodchip]

The Tea Party however does seem pretty crazy to me. Maybe we could have a civil discussion about that.

OK Roidy, start by giving examples of where the Tea Party seems crazy.

[CUDA]

I'm all for civil discussion about that

[Zuruck]

OK Roidy, start by giving examples of where the Tea Party seems crazy.

[Top Gun]

TC hates the right, FACT, she hates Christians, FACT and she a Misandry FACT much like TG, Zuruck, and you

Sweet, I'm both a self-hating Christian and a self-hating male!

[Ferno]

yup, another typical EnC thread.


/puke

[woodchip]

Yup and when we try to get a straight answer we get Ferno with his typical dipshit reply

[woodchip]

OK Roidy, start by giving examples of where the Tea Party seems crazy.

As tho she in any way compares to Joe Gaffer Biden. But nice reply lacking anything at all.

[woodchip]

So far I'm still waiting for a discussion to break out here.

[Ferno]

Yup and when we try to get a straight answer we get Ferno with his typical dipshit reply

I tool my answers to the audience.

[CUDA]

TC hates the right, FACT, she hates Christians, FACT and she a Misandry FACT much like TG, Zuruck, and you

Sweet, I'm both a self-hating Christian and a self-hating male!

missed the last part of that quote didn't you. either that or you intentionally omitted it. so which is it?

also are you making a profession of faith in Christ, if so then lets have a conversation

[Top Gun]

I couldn't even figure out which part of that sentence was supposed to go with what; did you just mean to refer those descriptions to TC alone?

And I've made no secret of the fact that I'm Catholic, but honestly, the more I hang around religious people, the more often I wish I wasn't.

[callmeslick]

OTOH, Greece may be so far gone even Slick couldn't save them

nor would I attempt or wish to......they have a culture of tax avoidance(and, they don't have bad tax rates) and tried to live like a rich nation with virtually no viable economic model. Not a recipe for success.......

[CUDA]

I couldn't even figure out which part of that sentence was supposed to go with what; did you just mean to refer those descriptions to TC alone?

And I've made no secret of the fact that I'm Catholic, but honestly, the more I hang around religious people, the more often I wish I wasn't.

you've also made no secret of your dislike for those the live their faith. SO I ask you. Do you practice your Catholicism or do you call yourself Catholic because you were "born" Catholic
because if you choose option #1 I will point out
James 1:22

22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

Just because you were born into a religion does not mean you are religious or even have a faith, or are saved, redeemed or any other description you want to say going to heaven. it's a choice, and James tells you that if you don't live the word your fooling yourself, are you fooling yourself into thinking you have a belief?

[Top Gun]

I am a practicing Catholic, if that's what you're implying. However, my faith has certainly been shaken by the deeds I've seen other people of "faith" perform, including right up the hierarchy. There are many instances where I've felt that what Jesus would actually do is give so-called "Christians" a swift kick in the nuts.