I fully agree with Ayatollah Khomeini

[Nightshade]

There is no fun in Islam.

"Allah did not create man so that he could have fun. The aim of creation was for mankind to be put to the test through hardship and prayer. An Islamic regime must be serious in every field. There are no jokes in Islam. There is no humor in Islam. There is no fun in Islam. There can be no fun and joy in whatever is serious." -- Ayatollah Khomeini

Maybe a catholic pope uttered some such words in the past about christianity?

[flip]

Yikes!! I'm reminded of this verse:

"Do not be overrighteous, neither be overwise--why destroy yourself?
Do not be overwicked, and do not be a fool--why die before your time?"- Big Fortune Cookie

EDIT:It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. The man who fears God will avoid all [extremes].

[CUDA]

Nehemiah 8:10

New International Version (NIV)

Nehemiah said, “Go and enjoy choice food and sweet drinks, and send some to those who have nothing prepared. This day is holy to our Lord. Do not grieve, for the joy of the Lord is your strength.”

[flip]

Also reminds me of how important it is to pray for those in authority and build community. Especially in your own immediate surroundings. You can only stand to benefit and the longer you have to build community the better. I've vowed to smile at people, stop if I see someone in need and completely clear the road for emergency vehicles. To show respect and reverence for each other. Give that 20 years to grow and you might have something but I say the longer the better.

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

So we can lead peaceful and quiet lives in the way we see fit and to give people the time needed themselves. I'm having a good time and fixing to up the amperage even more >: ) and the learning of my immediate surroundings that I have complete authority over.

[Tunnelcat]

A conundrum?

We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.

[CUDA]

A conundrum?

We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.

Not at all,
Paul is talking about taking care of those that are not able. Paul also says this later in Romans

Romans 15:13

May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.

some other of the MANY verses about Joy in the Bible

Ecclesiastes 9:7

Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do.

Psalms 5:11-12

But let all who take refuge in you rejoice; let them ever sing for joy, and spread your protection over them, that those who love your name may exult in you. For you bless the righteous, O LORD; you cover him with favor as with a shield.

Psalms 47:1

Clap your hands, all peoples! Shout to God with loud songs of joy!

[flip]

I'm not completely sure who TC is directing her conundrum at

[snoopy]

A conundrum?

We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.

The mystery of it is that God has a way of turning the bearing thereof and the neighborliness into a joy and a pleasure, if it's done in a genuinely selfless manner.

[flip]

Paul would tell people to submit to roman rule and slavery so that nothing would hinder the Gospel. He knew that eventually, if people would start loving each other and looking out after each other, slavery and the likes would end too.

[Tunnelcat]

A conundrum?

We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.

The mystery of it is that God has a way of turning the bearing thereof and the neighborliness into a joy and a pleasure, if it's done in a genuinely selfless manner.

Answer this: If those who are strong should bear the infirmities of the weak, is that only applicable if it's a personal choice? If a government takes some of our wealth to help the infirm or poor, is it now bad?

[flip]

You forget the spirtual and mental aspect of humans TC. Build someone up and make them healthy again mentally and spiritually, and 90% of the battle is done.

[Tunnelcat]

And how to you achieve that state of being with everyone in a large, impersonal society? Does one group require subservience of the rest to obtain the "proper" spiritual health? Who's version or idea of spirituality do you use as a template to gain this personal mental health?

I don't think most of the modern religions are the correct answer for everyone. I don't like the idea that if you don't follow this or that way to God according to this book or that book, you're a heathen, sinner, hell bound and outcast. Spirituality is not something you can teach, it's something you must find, by your own will. If one needs guidance, so be it. But it shouldn't be a requirement to fulfillment.

[flip]

Eh, I'm just talking about being nice and friendly to those around you. It's easy to tear people down. It's just as easy to build them up. I like seeing it and being a part of it. It's infectious All people are basically the same. I would go so far as saying there are about 7 personality types even , most of them are just fearful.

[roid]

there are about 7 personality types even

KEYPHRASE TRIGGERED
ELABORATION REQUESTED

[woodchip]

Paul would tell people to submit to roman rule and slavery so that nothing would hinder the Gospel. He knew that eventually, if people would start loving each other and looking out after each other, slavery and the likes would end too.

Yet 1700 years later a nation founded on Christianity allowed slavery.

[CUDA]

Answer this: If those who are strong should bear the infirmities of the weak, is that only applicable if it's a personal choice? If a government takes some of our wealth to help the infirm or poor, is it now bad?

IMHO yes. because the Bible is about changing the heart of the individual. and if you can change the heart of the individual then you can change governments.
God never intended for man to have his own Government. and when he allowed the Jews to form a man lead government he warned them about how bad it would get.

Does one group require subservience of the rest to obtain the "proper" spiritual health?

the Bible requires all of us to be servants to each other.
if you are the kind of person that needs to get to be satisfied. then that satisfaction can never be filled, you will always have the need for someone to give you more to get your next fix as it were.
but if you are a servant to others, your joy comes from the act of giving, then it becomes much easier to get that satisfaction because you do not need to rely on others for your gratification. it comes from the act of providing for others, and there is a never ending supply of people in need

[CUDA]

He knew that eventually, if people would start loving each other and looking out after each other, slavery and the likes would end too.

Yet 1700 years later a nation founded on Christianity allowed slavery.

but it ended didn't it

[Foil]

...if you are a servant to others, your joy comes from the act of giving... and there is a never ending supply of people in need

Well put. I rather like this simple description, actually.

[snoopy]

Answer this: If those who are strong should bear the infirmities of the weak, is that only applicable if it's a personal choice? If a government takes some of our wealth to help the infirm or poor, is it now bad?

Along the lines of what Cuda had to say:

The Bible/God is all about personal relationship. Personal relationship between God and individual men, and personal relationship between individual men with one another. My angle on the problem with the government taking on the role is that it cuts out our personal responsibility to care about the infirm and the poor. The endgame isn't really about giving them healing or food or shelter - the endgame is really about showing them the love of God. On the giver's side, it touches the soul because it encourages a selfless attitude. On the receiver's side, it touches the soul because they not only get have their physical needs met, but they are personally loved and cared for. The government can fill the dollars and cents side of it, but it takes individuals to cover the relationship side of it.

I understand the the government employs social workers, etc. and that it isn't just a machine - I thing the problem there is that the load of "caring" is so big that it ideally would be born corporately among all of the members of the society. The social workers who are carrying the Lion's share of the load in our current system end up jaded in self defense... because to continue to care in the midst of all of the pain and the way that red tape hinders the help would break 99% of us IMO.

Don't get me wrong - I think that government social systems are better than nothing... but I think it's a shame on the individuals of a society if those are the only two options out there.

[flip]

http://www.personalitypage.com/html/info.html

This one gets a little more involved than mine, but it still goes to show how we are all basically the same, and how we choose to percieve and interact with our surroundings is what differentiates us. It also means there is place for growth and change

The government can fill the dollars and cents side of it, but it takes individuals to cover the relationship side of it.

QFT.

[Tunnelcat]

He knew that eventually, if people would start loving each other and looking out after each other, slavery and the likes would end too.

Yet 1700 years later a nation founded on Christianity allowed slavery.

but it ended didn't it

Don't you think it's starting to creep back in?

[CUDA]

Hardly

[flip]

Absolutely. Government of the people is over because, first off there's just too damn many of us, and second, no one asserts themselves anymore. For instance just today. We purchased a tablet for my youngest daughter at Christmas. When purchased the salesman on the floor pushed a replacement plan for 80 bucks more for one year.
6 months later, tablet is broken so I go to get my replacement. Now, I'm always very clear as to what I'm purchasing, so to the point of being inane, I was assurred I could drop kick the tablet across the parking lot and get a free replacement. No problems.
Now 6 months later I go into the store and am told they don't carry that model anymore and for $120.00 bucks I could upgrade. No. So then they say they will split the difference and I pay $60.00 bucks. No, that's not what I was told. Finally, after 2 days they concede the newer tablet and then asked me to pay $20.00 in taxes. "Everybody has to pay taxes" =/ I told him I had already payed taxes and was not willing to pay it again. We actually had the police threatened and were I felt very level headed considering the circumstances.

The thing that got me altogether though was the mentality of the people who worked there, who thought they were doing me a favor by not honoring their word and then to think that is acceptable. They all act like a bunch of slaves and eat ★■◆● with grins on theie face's. Well, we walked out with the tablet and a 20 dollar gift certificate and I hope they remember me tonight I'm still reminded though that "you catch more flies with honey." It probably wouldn't have taken so long and I may have ended up with a friend instead. Oh well, guy was an ★■◆● anyways LOL.

[roid]

http://www.personalitypage.com/html/info.html

This one gets a little more involved than mine, but it still goes to show how we are all basically the same, and how we choose to percieve and interact with our surroundings is what differentiates us. It also means there is place for growth and change

ah, the 16 Myers Briggs/Keirsey types, i know them well
But i was asking about your personal "7-types" one you mentioned.

[flip]

Well, first there's the lying pos, then there's the goofy bastard, the know-it all, the better pissed off than pissed on, the altruistically honest, crazy sumbitch, and the all-knowing one's(the worse;)

[Tunnelcat]

Absolutely. Government of the people is over because, first off there's just too damn many of us, and second, no one asserts themselves anymore. For instance just today. We purchased a tablet for my youngest daughter at Christmas. When purchased the salesman on the floor pushed a replacement plan for 80 bucks more for one year.
6 months later, tablet is broken so I go to get my replacement. Now, I'm always very clear as to what I'm purchasing, so to the point of being inane, I was assurred I could drop kick the tablet across the parking lot and get a free replacement. No problems.
Now 6 months later I go into the store and am told they don't carry that model anymore and for $120.00 bucks I could upgrade. No. So then they say they will split the difference and I pay $60.00 bucks. No, that's not what I was told. Finally, after 2 days they concede the newer tablet and then asked me to pay $20.00 in taxes. "Everybody has to pay taxes" =/ I told him I had already payed taxes and was not willing to pay it again. We actually had the police threatened and were I felt very level headed considering the circumstances.

The thing that got me altogether though was the mentality of the people who worked there, who thought they were doing me a favor by not honoring their word and then to think that is acceptable. They all act like a bunch of slaves and eat **** with grins on theie face's. Well, we walked out with the tablet and a 20 dollar gift certificate and I hope they remember me tonight I'm still reminded though that "you catch more flies with honey." It probably wouldn't have taken so long and I may have ended up with a friend instead. Oh well, guy was an ★■◆● anyways LOL.

That's what I'm talking about. The wage slave that doesn't give a crap about his company or job, and the company that doesn't give a crap about the customer OR it's employees. The new God is profit and we are all slaves to it.

[woodchip]

Absolutely. Government of the people is over because, first off there's just too damn many of us, and second, no one asserts themselves anymore. For instance just today. We purchased a tablet for my youngest daughter at Christmas. When purchased the salesman on the floor pushed a replacement plan for 80 bucks more for one year.
6 months later, tablet is broken so I go to get my replacement. Now, I'm always very clear as to what I'm purchasing, so to the point of being inane, I was assurred I could drop kick the tablet across the parking lot and get a free replacement. No problems.
Now 6 months later I go into the store and am told they don't carry that model anymore and for $120.00 bucks I could upgrade. No. So then they say they will split the difference and I pay $60.00 bucks. No, that's not what I was told. Finally, after 2 days they concede the newer tablet and then asked me to pay $20.00 in taxes. "Everybody has to pay taxes" =/ I told him I had already payed taxes and was not willing to pay it again. We actually had the police threatened and were I felt very level headed considering the circumstances.

The thing that got me altogether though was the mentality of the people who worked there, who thought they were doing me a favor by not honoring their word and then to think that is acceptable. They all act like a bunch of slaves and eat **** with grins on theie face's. Well, we walked out with the tablet and a 20 dollar gift certificate and I hope they remember me tonight I'm still reminded though that "you catch more flies with honey." It probably wouldn't have taken so long and I may have ended up with a friend instead. Oh well, guy was an ★■◆● anyways LOL.

That's what I'm talking about. The wage slave that doesn't give a crap about his company or job, and the company that doesn't give a crap about the customer OR it's employees. The new God is profit and we are all slaves to it.

Nope the new God is govt. handouts received on the altar of self respect lost by multi-generational life-long practitioners.

[Tunnelcat]

I already know the government is fallible, corrupt and needs repair. Why do you believe the free market is infallible, free from corruption and the best solution for everyone problems?

[Krom]

The problem isn't that the government is too deep in to businesses for things to move smoothly or freely, the problem is that the businesses are in too deep in to government and deliberately keep things from moving smoothly or freely because it directly benefits them.

[flip]

Yeah the more I think about BestBuy, the more I think it's a scam. No matter what, even if they give you all your money back and pro-rate the replacement plan, they still got $40 bucks from you. Spread that across 250,000 people and you have a pocketfull of money. On top of that, they then take the tablet you rented for 6 months and resale it online refurbished for $299.00 bucks and start the whole process over. Besides the fact that they encourage their employee's to try and outright mislead you.

[Tunnelcat]

The problem isn't that the government is too deep in to businesses for things to move smoothly or freely, the problem is that the businesses are in too deep in to government and deliberately keep things from moving smoothly or freely because it directly benefits them.

I don't think the 2 are mutually exclusive anymore. They are so intertwined and dependent on one another that there's no longer a clear line of demarcation. What is clear is that this "marriage" no longer works for the people. What isn't clear is how do we "divorce" them.

[roid]

yes, the revolving door.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolving_door_concept

this one is particularly frightful
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

[flip]

I read a book by Pat Robertson called the New World Order that laid out the same thing. This was around the early 90's when we had a rash of world-wide change. He went so far as to show relations going back several decades. They will allow government officials to sit on corporate boards and vice versa. Say what you want to about Pat Robertson, and I've found myself disagreeing with alot of what he has said, but he could have went right along with it, considering his pedigree .

[Tunnelcat]

Maybe that's true, but Pat Robertson is a nutcase. I'd vote for Ralph Nader before even remotely considering Robertson. Gah!

[flip]

The problem with Pat Robertson and the likes is that everyone keeps coming to them for advice, and they soon forget to send them to the source.

[Tunnelcat]

No, his problem is that he thinks God is talking through him, so that everything that comes out of his mouth is from God.