....A Well-Regulated Militia.....

CobGobbler · Post by **CobGobbler** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:22 pm

flip wrote:Slick , I'll just say one more time, people like you are not objective.

Because that's really objective.

Foil · Post by **Foil** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:24 pm

What number(s) are you referring to, flip? The article you posted was about results in the UK, and the only numbers that have been referenced are the per-capita rates, which are indeed much higher in the US.

snoopy · Post by **snoopy** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:26 pm

I'm curious, callmeslick, what do you have to say about Anders Breivik?

Norway is a pretty good example of gun control that you're looking for, and yet it didn't stop him.

If you really want to talk about gun control, do it on the basis of the every-day gun crimes that happen. These big, messy cases usually involve people motivated enough that gun control laws wouldn't stop them.

(As Foil said, we don't know enough about this particular one, but I think that generally the point stands.)

Whitewater · Post by **Whitewater** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:29 pm

flip wrote:Slick, while I can understand your dismay and high-charged emotions here, this is exactly why people like you should not set policy. Everything you say sounds good on the surface but the facts are always this. Gun bans lifted, crime goes down. Gun bans imposed, crime goes up. We live in a sick world but we still need to stay objective.

Yet countries like Japan get a ban on guns to work extremely well.

Whitewater · Post by **Whitewater** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:30 pm

snoopy wrote:I'm curious, callmeslick, what do you have to say about Anders Breivik?

Norway is a pretty good example of gun control that you're looking for, and yet it didn't stop him.

If you really want to talk about gun control, do it on the basis of the every-day gun crimes that happen. These big, messy cases usually involve people motivated enough that gun control laws wouldn't stop them.

(As Foil said, we don't know enough about this particular one, but I think that generally the point stands.)

The difference is that in Norway this things aren't happening every couple weeks.

flip · Post by **flip** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:32 pm

Eh, I'm not really into emotionally charged debates. It's what produces Patriot acts and decades long wars. If you disarm the law-abiding citizens, only the criminals have guns. There are so many more considerations to make than just considering crime "rates." Rates account for population increase making it subjective at best, even while actual accounts are increasing. So the actual number of crimes can increase while the rates go down. I'd rather talk actual numbers than statistics.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:33 pm

snoopy wrote:I'm curious, callmeslick, what do you have to say about Anders Breivik?

Norway is a pretty good example of gun control that you're looking for, and yet it didn't stop him.

and, off the top of your head, HOW MANY such incidents have happened in Norway over the past 20 years?

If you really want to talk about gun control, do it on the basis of the every-day gun crimes that happen. These big, messy cases usually involve people motivated enough that gun control laws wouldn't stop them.

(As Foil said, we don't know enough about this particular one, but I think that generally the point stands.)

the bottom line is AVAILABILITY of weapons, easy availability. Affects both routine and mass violence. In fact, it is a tragedy that the discussion only seems to occur when a true massacre happens.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:34 pm

I think this pretty much sums up my feelings. It's a horrific day when an Onion article of all things makes you choke up.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:35 pm

flip wrote:Eh, I'm not really into emotionally charged debates. It's what produces Patriot acts and decades long wars. If you disarm the law-abiding citizens, only the criminals have guns. There are so many more considerations to make than just considering crime "rates." Rates account for population increase making it subjective at best, even while actual accounts are increasing. So the actual number of crimes can increase while the rates go down. I'd rather talk actual numbers than statistics.

hell, I'd rather talk about abolition of the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution, although that won't ever happen. We need a national cultural overhaul of radical proportions.

link down, TG

flip · Post by **flip** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:37 pm

http://gunowners.org/sk0703.htm

Let's compare the suicide rates while were at it

EDIT: There are many sources showing crime rates decreasing in Chicago and DC, where gun bans are lifted, and increasing in places such as Britain, where they are imposed.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:55 pm

What's sad about all this is that more and more people now will want to carry guns in public that don't know how to use them AND walking around with inexperienced a hair trigger fingers, with the excuse that they now need to protect themselves from all the other crazy's out there that are possibly carrying guns. Our formerly civilized society is headed back to the wild west and justice with a bullet.

CUDA posted about our mall shooting in another thread, but there was a small but significant incident that occurred right before that happened. 2 very young boys, 7 and 11 years old, tried to jack a truck from a local woman, with a loaded and cocked handgun pointed right at her. One small squeeze would have ended a life. They're even too young to arrest and throw in jail, or juvy. The neighbors were freaking out because these kids were released right back into their neighborhood for a short while. The father was a felon who shouldn't have even owned a gun (that's where the boys got it) in the first place. The laws that forbid a felon from owning a gun is almost worthless. The ease with which illicit guns can be obtained in this country by people who can't own them legally is scary.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Two-boys-ages-1 ... 41311.html

What's are society coming to, where even children have no concept of death or murder, and there is no punishment to even deal with them when they use a gun committing a crime.

Foil · Post by **Foil** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:58 pm

flip wrote:... the actual number of crimes can increase while the rates go down. I'd rather talk actual numbers than statistics.

Huh?

If a town with 1,000 people has 10 crimes ( 1% crime-per-capita rate), and a couple years later the town is 2,000 people with 10 crimes ( 0.5% crime-per-capita rate ), you'd take that as "no change"?

flip · Post by **flip** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:00 pm

Monkey see monkey do TC.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:03 pm

You can take rules 4 and 5 and stick them slick. Believe me, the only thing that stops me from becoming a victim, is the notion that every business owner is armed to the teeth, and willing to protect themselves.

If I can get into your house, no lock will keep me away from your weapons.

And when you take away all the guns, bombs and Swords will be the weapon of choice for mass murderers. (you can kill a lot of people real fast with a sword)

This country sure does have a sickness, but it’s not guns…

flip · Post by **flip** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:03 pm

I'm not a mathematician Foil, it doesn't make my nuts tingle like some of you

. Facts are this, when you disarm a nation, crime rates go up, when you re-arm them, they go down. Plus, there has been outright accusation from the police officers in those nations that the data is being reported incorrectly and outright manipulated. So, we must rely on logic, not numbers.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:07 pm

tunnelcat wrote:What's sad about all this is that more and more people now will want to carry guns in public that don't know how to use them AND walking around with inexperienced a hair trigger fingers, with the excuse that they now need to protect themselves from all the other crazy's out there that are possibly carrying guns. Our formerly civilized society is headed back to the wild west and justice with a bullet.

TC, same dumb logic was used here in Mich 8 or so years ago when shall issue ccw laws were passed. One local liberal radio jock was saying how there would be gun fights like "At the OK Corral" and how "Blood would flow in the streets". Would you care to guess how many gun fights occurred and how much blood flowed by licensed gun carrying individuals? Zip, zero, nada. I suggest you present a argument based on facts instead of hyperbole you read at some liberal blog.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:21 pm

Whitewater wrote:
flip wrote:Slick, while I can understand your dismay and high-charged emotions here, this is exactly why people like you should not set policy. Everything you say sounds good on the surface but the facts are always this. Gun bans lifted, crime goes down. Gun bans imposed, crime goes up. We live in a sick world but we still need to stay objective.
Yet countries like Japan get a ban on guns to work extremely well.

You can get a lot of things to work in a place with no real freedom.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:26 pm

Spidey wrote:You can take rules 4 and 5 and stick them slick. Believe me, the only thing that stops me from becoming a victim, is the notion that every business owner is armed to the teeth, and willing to protect themselves.

huh?

If I can get into your house, no lock will keep me away from your weapons.

I have a gun cabinet that weighs several hundred pounds, with two locking mechanisms. Good luck.

And when you take away all the guns, bombs and Swords will be the weapon of choice for mass murderers. (you can kill a lot of people real fast with a sword)

This country sure does have a sickness, but it’s not guns…

I'd argue that guns are a large part of it, but your sorry rationales are evidence that it goes far deeper.

flip · Post by **flip** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:00 pm

Yes exactly Slick. The world is full of deranged and unbalanced people. Some of them are just sleepy

, LOL, I jest Thorne. Point is, people are not going to magically just get better, there will always be the deranged. No amount of policing can prevent these instances of violence. It is up to the individual to protect themselves. A sad fact of life, but running around like chicken-headed charley and blaming this violence on guns alone is ridiculous.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:05 pm

flip wrote:Yes exactly Slick. The world is full of deranged and unbalanced people. Some of them are just sleepy , LOL, I jest Thorne. Point is, people are not going to magically just get better, there will always be the deranged. No amount of policing can prevent these instances of violence. It is up to the individual to protect themselves. A sad fact of life, but running around like chicken-headed charley and blaming this violence on guns alone is ridiculous.

sorry, but if the control over the flow of weaponry were tightened, and I mean SEVERELY tightened, with true teeth in the laws that will be enforced SEVERELY, the problem would become far less prevalent. Hell, someone tried to use Norway as an example....we've had 3 times the mass murders in the past 3 months that Norway has seen in 20 years. It is up to the society, Flip, NOT THE INDIVIDUALS, to protect the citizenry. Therein lies your error, and therein lies the commonsense that creates a society.

flip · Post by **flip** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:09 pm

Wrong, therein lies your idealism outside of reality. If an old man 70 years old is walking down the street at night when 3 thugs attack him, his only defense is a firearm. You wanna punish people and lock them up, I want the old man to live.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:11 pm

flip wrote:Wrong, therein lies your idealism outside of reality. If an old man 70 years old is walking down the street at night when 3 thugs attack him, his only defense is a firearm. You wanna punish people and lock them up, I want the old man to live.

a few years spent crushing the free flow of weaponry makes us ALL safer. Nothing is going to deter thugs from jumping old men. Firearm ownership more than likely makes him a victim nonetheless, and provides yet another stolen weapon to the streets. Attaboy.

flip · Post by **flip** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:18 pm

I've said this before and I'll say it again, you are not capable of setting policy and your type would enslave us all.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:28 pm

I've said it before.....you already are enslaved, by your own limitations, and simply don't realize it.

flip · Post by **flip** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:31 pm

I realize fully well that you are either deluded or trying to put the final nail in the coffin, most likely both.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:37 pm

slick sure is scarier than the thugs I carry to protect myself from…

And yea slick, I’m sure every gun owner can afford that kind of gun lockup. (actually hiding them might be more effective then locking them up)

Rules 4 and 5 were in reference to the laws you would enact from the other page. (conceal & carry laws)

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:42 pm

not that anyone's counting, but:

On Friday morning, 27 people were reportedly shot and killed at Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown, CT. According to sources, 18 of these casualties were children. This is the second mass shooting in the US this week, after a gunman opened fire in an Oregon shopping mall on Tuesday, killing 2. ABC News reports that there have been 31 school shootings in the US since Columbine in 1999, when 13 people were killed.

The rate of people killed by guns in the US is 19.5 times higher than similar high-income countries in the world. In the last 30 years since 1982, America has mourned at least 61 mass murders. Below is a timeline of mass shootings in the US since the Columbine High massacre:

December 11, 2012. On Tuesday, 22-year-old Jacob Tyler Roberts killed 2 people and himself with a stolen rifle in Clackamas Town Center, Oregon. His motive is unknown.

September 27, 2012. Five were shot to death by 36-year-old Andrew Engeldinger at Accent Signage Systems in Minneapolis, MN. Three others were wounded. Engeldinger went on a rampage after losing his job, ultimately killing himself.

August 5, 2012. Six Sikh temple members were killed when 40-year-old US Army veteran Wade Michael Page opened fire in a gurdara in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. Four others were injured, and Page killed himself.

July 20, 2012. During the midnight premiere of The Dark Knight Rises in Aurora, CO, 24-year-old James Holmes killed 12 people and wounded 58. Holmes was arrested outside the theater.

May 29, 2012. Ian Stawicki opened fire on Cafe Racer Espresso in Seattle, WA, killing 5 and himself after a citywide manhunt.

April 6, 2012. Jake England, 19, and Alvin Watts, 32, shot 5 black men in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in racially motivated shooting spree. Three died.

April 2, 2012. A former student, 43-year-old One L. Goh killed 7 people at Oikos University, a Korean Christian college in Oakland, CA. The shooting was the sixth-deadliest school massacre in the US and the deadliest attack on a school since the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre.

October 14, 2011. Eight people died in a shooting at Salon Meritage hair salon in Seal Beach, CA. The gunman, 41-year-old Scott Evans Dekraai, killed six women and two men dead, while just one woman survived. It was Orange County’s deadliest mass killing.

September 6, 2011. Eduardo Sencion, 32, entered an IHOP restaurant in Carson City, NV and shot 12 people. Five died, including three National Guard members.

January 8, 2011. Former Rep. Gabby Giffords (D-AZ) was shot in the head when 22-year-old Jared Loughner opened fire on an event she was holding at a Safeway market in Tucson, AZ. Six people died, including Arizona District Court Chief Judge John Roll, one of Giffords’ staffers, and a 9-year-old girl. 19 total were shot. Loughner has been sentenced to seven life terms plus 140 years, without parole.

August 3, 2010. Omar S. Thornton, 34, gunned down Hartford Beer Distributor in Manchester, CT after getting caught stealing beer. Nine were killed, including Thornton, and two were injured.

November 5, 2009. Forty-three people were shot by Army psychiatrist Nidal Malik Hasan at the Fort Hood army base in Texas. Hasan reportedly yelled “Allahu Akbar!” before opening fire, killing 13 and wounding 29 others.

April 3, 2009. Jiverly Wong, 41, opened fire at an immigration center in Binghamton, New York before committing suicide. He killed 13 people and wounded 4.

March 29, 2009. Eight people died in a shooting at the Pinelake Health and Rehab nursing home in Carthage, NC. The gunman, 45-year-old Robert Stewart, was targeting his estranged wife who worked at the home and survived. Stewart was sentenced to life in prison.

February 14, 2008. Steven Kazmierczak, 27, opened fire in a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University, killing 6 and wounding 21. The gunman shot and killed himself before police arrived. It was the fifth-deadliest university shooting in US history.

February 7, 2008. Six people died and two were injured in a shooting spree at the City Hall in Kirkwood, Missouri. The gunman, Charles Lee Thornton, opened fire during a public meeting after being denied construction contracts he believed he deserved. Thornton was killed by police.

December 5, 2007. A 19-year-old boy, Robert Hawkins, shot up a department store in the Westroads Mall in Omaha, NE. Hawkins killed 9 people and wounded 4 before killing himself. The semi-automatic rifle he used was stolen from his stepfather’s house.

April 16, 2007. Virginia Tech became the site of the deadliest school shooting in US history when a student, Seung-Hui Choi, gunned down 56 people. Thirty-two people died in the massacre.

February 12, 2007. In Salt Lake City’s Trolley Square Mall, 5 people were shot to death and 4 others were wounded by 18-year-old gunman Sulejman Talović. One of the victims was a 16-year-old boy.

October 2, 2006. An Amish schoolhouse in Lancaster, PA was gunned down by 32-year-old Charles Carl Roberts, Roberts separated the boys from the girls, binding and shooting the girls. 5 young girls died, while 6 were injured. Roberts committed suicide afterward.

March 25, 2006. Seven died and 2 were injured by 28-year-old Kyle Aaron Huff in a shooting spree through Capitol Hill in Seattle, WA. The massacre was the worst killing in Seattle since 1983.

March 21, 2005. Teenager Jeffrey Weise killed his grandfather and his grandfather’s girlfriend before opening fire on Red Lake Senior High School, killing 9 people on campus and injuring 5. Weise killed himself.

March 12, 2005. A Living Church of God meeting was gunned down by 44-year-old church member Terry Michael Ratzmann at a Sheraton hotel in Brookfield, WI. Ratzmann was thought to have had religious motivations, and killed himself after executing the pastor, the pastor’s 16-year-old son, and 7 others. Four were wounded.

July 8, 2003. Doug Williams, a Lockheed Martin employee, shot up his plant in Meridian, MI in a racially-motivated rampage. He shot 14 people, most of them African American, and killed 7.

September 15, 1999. Larry Gene Ashbrook opened fire on a Christian rock concert and teen prayer rally at Wedgewood Baptist Church in Fort Worth, TX. He killed 7 people and wounded 7 others, almost all teenagers. Ashbrook committed suicide.

July 29, 1999. Mark Orrin Barton, 44, murdered his wife and two children with a hammer before shooting up two Atlanta day trading firms. Barton, a day trader, was believed to be motivated by huge monetary losses. He killed 12 including his family and injured 13 before killing himself.

April 20, 1999. In the deadliest high school shooting in US history, teenagers Eric Harris and Dylan Kiebold shot up Columbine High School in Littleton, CO. They killed 13 people and wounded 21 others. They killed themselves after the massacre

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:43 pm

Spidey wrote:slick sure is scarier than the thugs I carry to protect myself from…

And yea slick, I’m sure every gun owner can afford that kind of gun lockup. (actually hiding them might be more effective then locking them up)

sorry, where I come from, you don't own a long gun without a gun safe(or, if you do, you are considered a reckless ★■◆●). And, that goes for folks of limited means, too, by the way. I know quite a few hunters who make less than 25K a year, but they managed to obtain a proper gun safe, because they need to hunt to feed their families, and a hunting rifle should be under locks when not in the field. It's simple, it's responsible, and to make excuses for some cheesy workaround like 'hiding' them is just plain ignorant. I can point you to a New England motorcycle 'club' that has made a good living for a couple, three decades, reselling guns that people thought they had 'hidden'.

Rules 4 and 5 were in reference to the laws you would enact from the other page. (conceal & carry laws)

sorry, but our nation will be safer. This time, just maybe something gets done to get loons like yourself off our streets.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:36 pm

callmeslick wrote:link down, TG

Guess it was the word filter, which you can turn off somewhere in your user control panel. Or failing that, it shouldn't take too much imagination to fill in the missing word if you copy/paste the link.

I don't really want to get into the same old stupid debate that always repeats itself whenever we see something like this, but honestly...enough is ★■◆●ing enough. Something is broken when deranged individuals are able to get their hands on firearms this easily.

flip · Post by **flip** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:38 pm

That's less than 30 people Slick.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:41 pm

That's a hell of a lot more than thirty, and it's not even counting the daily murders that occur in most major cities every day, frequently enough that most of us don't even bat an eye anymore. It's too much.

flip · Post by **flip** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:42 pm

It's less than a 1000.

EDIT: People have been murdered from the beginning of time. How are you gonna stop that? Hell, I could choke people to death. It's not a good argument for disarming the whole law-abiding population.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:46 pm

callmeslick wrote:not that anyone's counting, but:

On Friday morning, 27 people were reportedly shot and killed at Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown, CT. According to sources, 18 of these casualties were children. This is the second mass shooting in the US this week, after a gunman opened fire in an Oregon shopping mall on Tuesday, killing 2. ABC News reports that there have been 31 school shootings in the US since Columbine in 1999, when 13 people were killed.

The rate of people killed by guns in the US is 19.5 times higher than similar high-income countries in the world. In the last 30 years since 1982, America has mourned at least 61 mass murders. Below is a timeline of mass shootings in the US since the Columbine High massacre:

Mindless examples to promote gun control

Lets look at another timeline:

"Nazi Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated."

"In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. By 1987 that figure had risen to 61,911,000."

"China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952 10,076,000 political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated in Kuomintang China, and by 1987 another 35,236,000 exterminations were carried out under the Communists."

"Cambodia established gun control in 1956. Between 1975 and 1979, 2,035,000 “educated” people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
During the short four years of its rule in Cambodia, Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge government murdered over 31 percent of the entire Cambodian population."

So does my 100 + million example trump your paltry 100+ murders? Sorry comrade, Shills like you who try to dupe others into agreeing with them through emotional means are the real killers. You're still an idiot until you can debate via means other than fear and emotion.

flip · Post by **flip** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:50 pm

Shills like you who try to dupe others into agreeing with them through emotional means are the real killers.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:16 pm

And just how are carry and conceal laws going to prevent someone from killing a bunch of kids in a school? I don’t think you give a rat’s ass who gets murdered in this country, this is just a nice convenient political opportunity for you.

Hack.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:32 pm

Spidey wrote:And just how are carry and conceal laws going to prevent someone from killing a bunch of kids in a school? I don’t think you give a rat’s ass who gets murdered in this country, this is just a nice convenient political opportunity for you.

Hack.

Well we know one thing for sure, not having anyone carrying does not prevent killings. In fact it may promote killings as schools are known as soft targets.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:09 pm

woodchip wrote:
tunnelcat wrote:What's sad about all this is that more and more people now will want to carry guns in public that don't know how to use them AND walking around with inexperienced a hair trigger fingers, with the excuse that they now need to protect themselves from all the other crazy's out there that are possibly carrying guns. Our formerly civilized society is headed back to the wild west and justice with a bullet.
TC, same dumb logic was used here in Mich 8 or so years ago when shall issue ccw laws were passed. One local liberal radio jock was saying how there would be gun fights like "At the OK Corral" and how "Blood would flow in the streets". Would you care to guess how many gun fights occurred and how much blood flowed by licensed gun carrying individuals? Zip, zero, nada. I suggest you present a argument based on facts instead of hyperbole you read at some liberal blog.

I'm only making an observation, not an argument against gun sales. People are always predictable and usually reactionary when fear takes over. Of course, when the story becomes old and the press drops it, that fear subsides and people forget, until the next one happens........... again. Monkey see, monkey do.

http://www.newser.com/story/150728/colo ... oting.html

This data list of gun ownership and gun death rates by country is kind of interesting.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... world-list

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:41 am

it does go far, far beyond simple gun ownership. Sadly, we live in a sick society that values violence, views weapons as equal to power, has lost the concept of civil discourse and creates a populace in which rage and fear are the dominant emotions. We have to address the core of that sickness, somehow. I think my point of seeking strict(very strict) gun controls is that without the flood of personal weaponry, the road to addressing the sickness would become easier, and marked by less tragedy. We have become precisely the last people who ought to be well-armed. Frankly,as a society, we simply do not deserve, nor have we earned, the freedoms we have in terms of gun ownership. One can only hope that THIS TIME the fear mongers who like to equate strict firearms laws and enforcement with totalitarian regimes and other similar smokescreens won't prevail. One can only hope that THIS TIME folks will seriously examine what is going on in our culture to breed the kind of rage that manifests itself in so many ways. One can only hope.....

Aggressor Prime · Post by **Aggressor Prime** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:39 am

Guns have nothing to do with this. Evil people will always find ways to kill our human family; they have been doing it since they picked up a stick.

Instead of taking our rage out on guns or even the gunman, we need to change our emotions and be thoughtful of all those who lost their lives. Don't let madmen like this kill the American dream. We will do justice to the dead by surviving this and coming out stronger, as a family united.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:39 am

Aggressor Prime wrote:Guns have nothing to do with this.

sorry, but I disagree. Guns have a great deal to do with the end result.

Evil people will always find ways to kill our human family; they have been doing it since they picked up a stick.

how many 6 year olds do you estimate this guy would have killed with a stick? Get real, and quit making excuses.

Instead of taking our rage out on guns or even the gunman, we need to change our emotions and be thoughtful of all those who lost their lives. Don't let madmen like this kill the American dream. We will do justice to the dead by surviving this and coming out stronger, as a family united.

...until it happens again, and again, and again. Like I said, get real. It isn't about rage, it's about common sense and a civil society. We have, in the US,
lost both, apparently.