some folks aren't hurting a bit....

[callmeslick]

average CEO PERKS are up to over 5 times the average SALARY rate......heaven forbid these folks pay higher taxes!
http://money.msn.com/investing/10-outra ... ?GT1=33002

[woodchip]

Yes, lets keep the class warfare alive.

[snoopy]

Actually I do have an issue with this. It saddens me that these big veeps seem to think that they're any better than the people that work for them.

[woodchip]

So Snoopy, the fact that you make 5 times as much as a homeless person or a welfare recipient bothers you also?

[Will Robinson]

I don't care how much a company pays its top people. I care that they don't pay tax on it.
And the worst offenders are Congress. They are the new royalty much more so than CEO's

[callmeslick]

I don't care how much a company pays its top people. I care that they don't pay tax on it.
And the worst offenders are Congress. They are the new royalty much more so than CEO's

you have to get out more. Congress is just their bought-and-paid-for help.

[callmeslick]

Actually I do have an issue with this. It saddens me that these big veeps seem to think that they're any better than the people that work for them.

it isn't just that, it is that this pheonomenon is a HUGE part of the demise of the middle class. At one time, CEO pay was less than 25 times the pay of entry level employees, on average, and yes, there were perks, but nothing like the level today. Most perks were in longer term stock options that emphasized the long-term performance of the corporation. What we now have is top execs bleeding corporations dry at the expense of the rank and file employees(who are largely seen as disposable assets), and further, making decisions that maximize their short-term perks at the expense of longer term profitability. Now, I know that some here will see this as something they can blame on politicians, or deflect(a la Woody, above) onto politicians, but that would be simplistic. We are in an era which celebrates greed, and, as I stated to Woody, the pols aren't the drivers, they are the servants. Thus, it is very difficult(and BOTH PARTIES ARE TO BLAME TO SOME EXTENT)to forsee the sorts of political changes that would get us back into the corporate mindset that grew the economy and the middle class in the late 1950s and 1960s. And, make no mistake, the reason things were different then wasn't as simple as stating that people were inherently less greedy. The tax code forced long term thinking, and restrained short term greed.

[Will Robinson]

I don't care how much a company pays its top people. I care that they don't pay tax on it.
And the worst offenders are Congress. They are the new royalty much more so than CEO's

you have to get out more. Congress is just their bought-and-paid-for help.

Congress puts CEO's in jail for doing the same things it pats itself on the back for. I'm far enough out to know the difference between those who pay to stay out of the dungeon and those who own the dungeon...

[callmeslick]

Congress puts CEO's in jail for doing the same things it pats itself on the back for.

Congress puts no one in jail. That is the job of the Attorney General and Judiciary. Congress can make the laws, but seldom put any real teeth into them,
if you've noticed.

I'm far enough out to know the difference between those who pay to stay out of the dungeon and those who own the dungeon...

...and, those that 'own' the Congress, too?

[Spidey]

So if I make 50,000 a year and pay 5000 in taxes, and someone else makes 200,000 and pays 20,000 in taxes…how is that “NOT” paying more in taxes?

SSI aside, because the cap is something that should be eliminated.

We have an artificial middle class in this country, which is one created by unions where the average uneducated worker can make middle class wages by doing nothing more than manual labor, the traditional middle class was historically made of the movers and shakers like merchants, businessmen and professionals. Now that we have a global economy where labor is cheaply available elsewhere that class of workers in decline, and the middle class is returning to its traditional constituents.

Don’t read this wrong, I don’t have any problem with this type of middle class, and the only way to sustain this class of workers is to spend your money on them. IE: The consumer. My point here is, the problem is not how much someone makes at the top, that is causing the decline (as I pointed out before in another thread, the money a CEO makes, doesn’t go very far divided up amongst 20,000 workers).

The decline of the middle class in this country is a problem caused by the consumer, the fact is this economy is driven by the consumer, in upwards of 70 percent, and if you don’t believe that something that makes up 70 percent of something doesn’t have the largest affect, well you just don’t have any concept of reality…but hey…you can always believe what political hacks have to say, and ignore reality.

I’m sure that way you can feel all warm and fuzzy inside believing you don’t have anything to do with it.

[Will Robinson]

Congress puts CEO's in jail for doing the same things it pats itself on the back for.

Congress puts no one in jail. That is the job of the Attorney General and Judiciary. Congress can make the laws, but seldom put any real teeth into them,
if you've noticed.

I'm far enough out to know the difference between those who pay to stay out of the dungeon and those who own the dungeon...

...and, those that 'own' the Congress, too?

The AG is serving at the pleasure of the King.
Congress behaves like a royal family much more than CEOs do
Congress makes laws that CEOs must live under Congress exempts themselves from the law like royalty does...

CEOs can't call together an investigation into the bussines of Congress, summon them to appear on a whim with the force of the kings 'army' to back it up.
Congress can do all that to CEOs....

CEOs are more like Earls and Dukes, as long as the Royal family is pleased with them they are allowed to live high and mighty.

The sons and daughters of a Kennedy or Bush is much more likely to have an inside track to the upper class lifestyle than the children of who ever is CEO of Bass Pro Shop

[callmeslick]

The AG is serving at the pleasure of the King.

we don't have a king. We have an elected President.

Congress behaves like a royal family much more than CEOs do

please list how many CEOs you know at all, and how many sitting Congresspeople. I can list 4 of the former, and 10 of the latter, and feel you are completely wrong.

Congress makes laws that CEOs must live under Congress exempts themselves from the law like royalty does...

such as?

CEOs can't call together an investigation into the bussines of Congress, summon them to appear on a whim with the force of the kings 'army' to back it up.
Congress can do all that to CEOs....

but Congress is up for election, every two years in the House and 6 in the Senate. The press investigates them constantly, and without any prior notification, like a Congressional hearing has to post. Sorry, you are on shaky ground here, Will.

CEOs are more like Earls and Dukes, as long as the Royal family is pleased with them they are allowed to live high and mighty.

nope. The Congress is elected in a process financed by those with deep pockets. In other words, old money, CEOs and large interest groups. Under current rules, the CEOs have the most ready cash of any of those entities(see: Citizens United). If you really get involved with politics at the state level or higher, you would see what I mean. The 'powers that be' in any state, which almost exclusively consist of the monied classes, essentially hand-select who gets to run for office. It's that simple, you have it backwards, and I'm being charitable in my choice of words.

[CUDA]

So if I make 50,000 a year and pay 5000 in taxes, and someone else makes 200,000 and pays 20,000 in taxes…how is that “NOT” paying more in taxes?

it is the democrats are just lying

Dont be fooled. and the president came out today and said.

Obama argued he has already cut more than $1 trillion in federal spending but is willing to talk about more cuts, including some to Medicare, but would not make that part of the debt ceiling issue. He again suggested a potential mix of increasing taxes by closing loopholes and more spending cuts.

to to put that in real language. I'll talk and string you along. I manipulated the process and claimed I cut 1 trillion in spending when I really didn't. and I have no intention of ever making any cuts. I just want more taxes. OH I'll talk about it. but it will only just be talk.

[callmeslick]

but the cuts are matters of public record, CUDA. Look them up. Just don't look for Fox News to be a good source of info. Hell, the Healthcare bill alone will result in $400-600 billion in cost savings. If you count the requested budget cuts(not the sequester mandates), that would be another $300 billion over ten years, and indexing changes to Social Security benefits are, what, another $200 billion over the same period. There's a trillion, and it doesn't count the little bureaucratic efficiencies they have been steadily implementing for 4 years.
Now, I fully expect you will come back with a host of examples of missteps and badly spent monies, which won't approach $5 billion, total. But, the truth, as always, is the truth. Cuts HAVE been made. And, to address the tax example, using the graduated tax to greatly increase the percentage for those making a lot of money is different than simply 'the rich pay more money even if the rate is the same'. However, there is both a purpose, and there ought to be a sense of doing what's right for the nation in such an elevated tax rate. You see, everyone 'got it' during the 1950's, and we got a healthy economy.
Today, not so much, huh?

[Will Robinson]

slick, we are both on shaky ground comparing either congress OR CEO's to Royalty if you drill down too deep but as far as the behavior of either group while they are in their respective positions I see far more parallels between Congress/Presidents etc and royalty than I do with CEO's and royalty.

The examples I gave above are good ones.

I know a few titans of industry, the CEO of Levi Strauss USA, for example, now retired, a friend of the family since long before he ever rose to that position and long since. He wasn't anything like you imply he must have been. Within a number of industries I've known a few. Their wealth is impressive and they do become pampered etc but they don't demand the lesser wealthy bow and scrape. They usually sit in the same seats I do in theaters, air craft etc., the tax payers don't pay for their security for life, their pensions etc. etc.

And yes I know a few in Congress that are, at least for now, relatively men of the people. Exceptions to every rule etc.

Can you have your grand children picked up and flown on air force jets to rendezvous with you for family vacation? Neither can CEO's but Congress can....

Laws congress is exempt from?!? Really? You don't pay attention to the exemptions they write for themselves both for personal gain and to protect their shady execution of their duties?
How about their healthcare coverage, before the Obama care was anywhere near finished being detailed (is it even done yet) they had an exemption inserted for themselves....

How about the way they enforce accounting rules that CEO's must obey that they themselves do not? Can you or a CEO count your debts as assets when compiling your balance sheet so your budget looks good to your stockholders or the IRS? No, that gets you prison time. The Congress does it regularly....lock box my ass!
Here is one that goes way back, can you or a CEO be detained by the police on your way to work? Sure you can. Congress can't be detained....their job is too important.

[callmeslick]

Can you have your grand children picked up and flown on air force jets to rendezvous with you for family vacation? Neither can CEO's but Congress can....

most CEOs I know(banking,chemicals,petroleum)have such perks provided by their company. Also, many of both groups I've known ARE regular people, but some of both groups live in a different stratosphere. I can think of one CEO who clearly has no concept of how common people live, wasn't terribly in touch with it when we were both in school, and has gotten ever farther detached as we've both aged. Sad to see, but that one is way past me
attempting to bring him to reality. The only reason he acknowledges my petty existence is upbringing, I suspect. On the other hand, the Vice President of the US is one of the nicest, most 'normal' guys you'd ever meet.

How about their healthcare coverage, before the Obama care was anywhere near finished being detailed (is it even done yet) they had an exemption inserted for themselves....

I've long felt that members of Congress should have the same pensions and health coverage as the rest of us, so I'll gladly agree there.

How about the way they enforce accounting rules that CEO's must obey that they themselves do not? Can you or a CEO count your debts as assets when compiling your balance sheet so your budget looks good to your stockholders or the IRS? No, that gets you prison time. The Congress does it regularly....lock box my ass!
Here is one that goes way back, can you or a CEO be detained by the police on your way to work? Sure you can. Congress can't be detained....their job is too important.

that last part harks back in History, basically around attempts to overthrow governments. The first? Well, that speaks to something I've long tried to point out here: Government and Business run differently, budget differently and have different economic structures. Nothing more.

[Will Robinson]

...

How about the way they enforce accounting rules that CEO's must obey that they themselves do not? Can you or a CEO count your debts as assets when compiling your balance sheet so your budget looks good to your stockholders or the IRS? No, that gets you prison time. The Congress does it regularly....lock box my ass!
Here is one that goes way back, can you or a CEO be detained by the police on your way to work? Sure you can. Congress can't be detained....their job is too important.

that last part harks back in History, basically around attempts to overthrow governments. The first? Well, that speaks to something I've long tried to point out here: Government and Business run differently, budget differently and have different economic structures. Nothing more.

Royalty and Government share that as one of the distinctions that separates them from Business....

Here is a fundamental difference between CEO's and Congress.

CEO's enjoy whatever privilege they have only because they pay someone who is willing to acknowledge it and to provide it. They know they have no inherent right to it, but rather, that they buy it every time they want to exercise it. They have to pay someone to play along...kind of like hiring a prostitute...

Congress/Presidents enjoy privileges that they not only don't pay for but are mandated by laws they decree. Laws enforced by the power of the 'sword' they command. And it is the common man who pays to provide those privilege to them under the law. The participants are forced to play along, kind of like rape....

It's just has a little different feel to it for us peons.

PS: Joe Biden is far from normal. He plays normal alright for a willing audience but he's a condescending asshat of great proportion!

[callmeslick]

PS: Joe Biden is far from normal. He plays normal alright for a willing audience but he's a condescending asshat of great proportion!

and, you know this from what personal experience?(be very careful, you're exchanging thoughts with someone who has known him since 1972,
and will, in fact, be seeing him in the flesh this coming Sunday, and likely next Monday as well). I can give a lot of examples of why my opinion stands where it does.

[woodchip]

What we now have is top execs bleeding corporations dry at the expense of the rank and file employees(who are largely seen as disposable assets), and further, making decisions that maximize their short-term perks at the expense of longer term profitability.

Slick it is really painful to read what you post for all the attempts to side with your string pullers and their attempt to portray classes of people as something they are not. Look at some of the following companies and tell me their CEO's are bleeding them dry:

Ford Motor Company
General motors
Boeing
Martin Marietta
General Electric
General Dynamics

The problem you have Slick, is the talking points come out from the Democratic party and you glom right onto it like a Lamprey to a Lake Trout. Sorry to burst your bubble but most CEO's want the business they head to be successful.
And Will is correct about the new royalty. Just look at when princess Nancy wanted the air force to buy a new jet just to fly her home and back to DC. Didn't her fat cat husband make enough to buy her a plane? Commercial first class not good enough? The existing Air Force jet was too cramped? And what about Obama's latest Hawaii vacation that cost the tax payer close to 7 million. Can't find a place a little closer to DC?

Please try and spin it some more.

[Spidey]

Well, maybe it’s time we started to elect some extraordinary people.

"Normal" ain't cutting it.

[Will Robinson]

PS: Joe Biden is far from normal. He plays normal alright for a willing audience but he's a condescending asshat of great proportion!

and, you know this from what personal experience?(be very careful, you're exchanging thoughts with someone who has known him since 1972,
....

That's nice, however, I've owned a television for at least the last 25 years of his public career so I'm pretty comfortable with my opinion of him!
And I'm pretty sure during that time, if I had known you knew him, I would still feel the same.
Wait, let me check......
Yep, I'm still confident he is an asshat!

When you see him ask him how many people he is willing to kill in order to "save just one life" with his gun control policy.

[callmeslick]

as I suspected.....nothing. Sorry to doubt your veracity, Will, but I'll bet you couldn't have picked Joe Biden out of a lineup 15 years ago.
As for Woody's pain, sorry, but cherry picking again doesn't cut it. Ask anyone in business, or even in business school. The current model for larger corporate entities is away from the long-term planning that was prevalent 50 years ago. Some, even much of that, has to do with taxation on compensation and cap gains. As for getting talking points from the Dems, you should have been sharp enough to notice by now that I often go on my little rants a day or two before any national party pol mentions it. So, sorry, not working from anyone's party playbook. Slick doesn't work that way.

[callmeslick]

And what about Obama's latest Hawaii vacation that cost the tax payer close to 7 million. Can't find a place a little closer to DC?

lessee....the guy takes 1/3 the vacation of GWB. Travel costs are neglible compared to security(which is based on time spent vacationing). Oh, and his birthplace, and thus childhood and family friends are there. Yet, your ObamaHate prevents you from giving him the simple respect he's more than earned. Who the feck tells you where you should vacation and with whom?

Please try and spin it some more.

uh-huh.....

[woodchip]

And we should take your assertions you know all the politicians you say you do...why?

[callmeslick]

And we should take your assertions you know all the politicians you say you do...why?

believe what you want. Either way, I don't give a ★■◆●. What do you wish to see, my room receipt down in DC next weekend? You won't be seeing photos out of a wish for personal privacy, so I guess that's out. I'm pretty confident in my facts, woody. Hell, I've been getting introduced to, dining and meeting with politicians since I was 13 or 14 years old(first ones were the late Caleb Boggs(R-Del), and Strom Thurmond(R-SC). Its just how things are done when you are raised in certain circles.

[callmeslick]

ya know, Woody, your question above, coupled with your goofy claim that I get my talkiing points from the Dems made me think of something. Over the years, and even at the present time, of the politicians on a Federal level who know me by personally(folks whose office I can appear in and be greeted by name).,as many are Republicans as Democrats. Back in PA, that is the case with Gerlach and Pitts(agree with neither on most issues, but respect both's integrity as men). I was long a supporter(financial and otherwise) of the late Arlen Specter. Knew Bill Roth pretty well, etc. So, it seems to me, my whole philosophy of governance, and the respect I hold for those in office(which I'd hope is mutual, but you'd have to ask them) is very much bipartisan.
Sure, I'm aware that most little kids don't, in this nation, grow up being introduced to prominent politicians. That is simply a perk of upbringing, and a good deal of why the same smallish circle essentially runs things, no matter who is in power. But, unlike folks who simply digest whatever pap is fed them by Fox News or MSNBC or the like, most of us who grew up that way appreciate that politicians are at OUR service. Most politicians try to be at the service of the public as a whole. Most don't get where they do without being really good at listening. Some of them use that listening to try and form intelligent policy. Where the current mess gets screwed up is that we have been, over the past two decades, seeing more and more politicians who operate from a knee-jerk, ideological, sense of 'right'. Those folks are hard to reason with, and harder still to get to grasp the concept of the compromise, reason and open exchange of ideas our system demands. Couple that phenomenon with a voting populace who is largely ignorant of, and dismissive of government, and you leave the nation open for a host of really serious problems.

[woodchip]

Yet slickster, you made a big deal about negotiating with Dominican and Colombian bikers. Setting up deals for drugs? For firearms? Somehow with your alleged connections and upbringing, dealing with 1%er bikers just doesn't fit.

[callmeslick]

Yet slickster, you made a big deal about negotiating with Dominican and Colombian bikers. Setting up deals for drugs? For firearms? Somehow with your alleged connections and upbringing, dealing with 1%er bikers just doesn't fit.

it goes back on that part to the boredom and recklessness of youth, a roomate in college whose father was a Mob boss in Rhode Island and living in the Eastern Connecticut woods for a few years. A rebellious period? To be sure. Those of us involved in those things look back on those days and thank goodness we lived through it. My former roomate? Not so lucky.
As I said, I really don't give a crap whether you accept this stuff of not. All I can say is that it serves little purpose that I can see to get all fictional, so I am very confident in what I write here being accurate. I am happy, overall, with my life. It's been good.....very good, actually. Further, it has been varied and exciting at times. If I looked back and saw 58 years of sameness, hanging with a tight little social circle, hanging at the same clubs, going to the same parties and social events for 5 decades, I wouldn't feel the same way. So, you can either accept my weird reality, or not. Won't affect me, either way.

[callmeslick]

actually, woody, you aren't the only one who's ever been puzzled by the, um, dichotomy. Although completely off-topic, I'll relate a short story. A very good fishing buddy of mine retired after his Air Force service and went looking for work in the National Security sector(he currently works in Nebraska for a company called Mitre Corporation....look them up). First step, top level security clearance check. So, without asking first, he lists me as a personal contact. Figures, why not? The guy is my close buddy, will vouch for me, and hell, he's a member of the Sons of the American Revolution, First Families of Virginia, yadda-yadda.....I get a call from him a month later, freaking out. "Do you realize there's a file on you with the DEA, another with the FBI and a few others?". I say, " all from about 1980-85, right?". At any rate, I had been already contacted by, and had a longish conversation with some nice kid from the FBI, explaining misspent youths and assuring him that both I had changed my ways, and my friend was an upstanding patriot. It must not have held him back, because he's been a key player in encryptation security for the past 10 years.

[Tunnelcat]

Yes, lets keep the class warfare alive.

No, income inequality is slowly destroying the economy and the U.S. itself. It only benefits those who make or take the most money.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickal ... g-the-u-s/

[callmeslick]

thanks for returning to facts, as opposed to my bizarre personality!! Thank you TC!

[Tunnelcat]

Well hell! You might be boring without it!

[callmeslick]

[Tunnelcat]

More outrage.

The spectacular unwarranted generosity paid to the CEO who nearly tanked HP while under her captaincy, Carly Fiorina, who now thinks union pensions are way too generous. God in heaven.

http://www.politicolnews.com/carly-fior ... to-retire/

And the present CEO of HP, Meg Whitman, is getting only 70% of her normal pay, while the rest is tied to the company's future performance. Poor baby.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/ceo-whi ... -1B7956610

Why are people who do such crappy jobs paid sooo much to do it?