Does morality require God?

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:54 am

This all goes towards a point I tried to make awhile back concerning Pavlov's dogs and conditioning. At the sound of a bell, the dogs would salivate uncontrollably. Man is the only creation that can control the way he thinks. He is the only creation that can control the chemicals released into his body. By feeling good about himself, he releases endorphins and other beneficial chemicals and a good balance is maintained and this leads to a longer life. When he feels guilt or shame, he becomes chemically unbalanced and this leads to disease and a shorter life.

EDIT: The only problem with this is even though man has freewill to determine his character, he can also be conditioned by controlling how he thinks

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:04 am

are you suggesting that Pavlovian response cannot be seen in humans, or that humans can fully subvert such response? If so, I disagree.

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:41 am

Maybe you didn't read my whole response? Said another way, humans are in control of their own conditioning.

EDIT: Well, there are sociological and environmental issues to contend with but with therapy even those hurdles can be overcome. I think that is why being "born again" is so important to the Christian faith. If you notice, Adam was forced to work, to give a feeling of paying for his sin and forgiveness of sins gives one the ability to change and not stay in a sense of condemnation. If you feel condemned, there is only 2 ways to overcome that feeling. Either some kind of deed to instill a feeling of worthiness and to express a sense of sorrowfulness for the deed, or the person who was offended must release you by offering complete forgiveness. Then, you can move forward to becoming a different person, unshackled by the weight of feeling unworthy. That's why I feel the foundational basis for all mental health begins with forgiveness.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:27 am

flip wrote:humans are in control of their own conditioning.

to a point.

Foil · Post by **Foil** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:34 am

Jeff250 wrote: ...the idea that heaven is better for us than here because it has no evils.

I believe the idea is not that heaven is appealing because it has no evil, but rather it's because God is tangible / approachable / present there.

I have other issues with some commonly-held Christian ideas about heaven, but that would continue the derailment.

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:04 am

Hehe, in real life discussions, most people do not hold the other to just one topic so that the discussion can evolve and remain interesting

and who knows, in allowing the discussion to branch in many directions maybe we get back to the original topic, Does morality require God?

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:05 am

To what point Cuda? You don't think that someone can be completely changed by changing their way of thinking? That would fly right in the face of Christianity actually and the premise that people must be "born again."

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:47 am

flip wrote:To what point Cuda? You don't think that someone can be completely changed by changing their way of thinking? That would fly right in the face of Christianity actually and the premise that people must be "born again."

no I don't believe they can. but I do believe that they can learn to control aspects of their life. we are creatures of our experiences, able to change and control some of them, but they are a part of our make up and shapes who we are and how we think.

Matthew 26:41 wrote:Keep watch and pray, so that you will not give in to temptation. For the spirit is willing, but the body is weak!

Paul said

Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst.

the "premise" of born again is not that you do not sin, but that when you stand before God those sins are not seen.

2 Cor 5 wrote:So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:18 pm

See, I think that's another dangerous heresy that has crept into the church. The fact that we become temples of God and His Holy Spirit is within us is to free us from sin. There are many verses in the bible that state we are to stop sinning, but only can we do that if we are walking in the strength of God's Spirit.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11 “No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

There are many more. This all goes back to the "once saved, always saved" heresy and I think also the fault of people believing in the Trinity. If you don't realize who Jesus actually is and that everything He did was through the Spirit of God, then you put Him and His life out of reach. This also obscures the knowledge of your inheritance, which is to be exactly like Him in the world to come, under the headship of God the Father. People mistakenly claim that He just forgives sins, but the blood of bulls and goats did that. No, He came so that the Holy Spirit of God could dwell within these fleshly bodies and free us from sin, to actually remove the power that sin had over us. People don't know what the hope is that Paul was talking about anymore, so they neglect the need to purify themselves. There is much more to say about this, but we are supposed to free and purify and crucify our flesh through the Spirit that was withheld for so long.

EDIT: He forgave us all our sins so that we could have His Holy Spirit, that would then free us from sin. Not to just make a declaration over sin like the blood of bulls and goats did, but to make us truly holy through His Spirit.

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:28 pm

8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:29 pm

flip, I find it extremely difficult to have conversations with you when you do not reference the location of the scriptures. I did ask earlier. and I will ask again.

POST THE LOCATION OF THE VERSE

please

PLUS I feel you are totally misinterpreting what I'm saying. try not to boarder on the legalism. it's the feeling that I'm getting from your posts.

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:37 pm

I must have missed that. What I always do is copy paste in google search. That should bring it right up.

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:56 pm

You call it legalism Cuda, Paul called it the power of Godliness. Christians do not seem to realize the significance of being born of the Spirit. God's grace is that while we were still in our sins, He sent His Son to die for us and forgive us our sins, so that we could become the living temples of God. It borders on blasphemy to compare the blood of bulls and goats to the blood of Jesus. The blood of bulls and goats covered sin, the blood of Jesus frees us from it by making us vessels of the very Spirit of God. That's the grace, that while we were still enemies, He provided us a way.

EDIT: I think the problem is people confuse Jewish Law of observation, with the law of sin and death introduced by Adam and Eve. They are 2 different things. The Jewish law consisted of animal sacrifice, dietary restrictions, observance of feasts and circumcision, those were done away with.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:39 pm

Whats your thoughts on PRE-destination?

Pandora · Post by **Pandora** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:05 pm

seems relevant. TED talk by Frans de Waal, one of my favourite primatologists, about moral behavior in animals.

So, if animals, can and do behave morally, doesn't this not quite clearly show that morals don't need a God (at least not a belief in god or adherence to religion). Then again, we find that primates do more and more things that we once thought were possible --- maybe they have religion/superstition as well?

(sorry, this seems more related to the original point, not to what you are discussing now)

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:16 pm

CUDA wrote:Whats your thoughts on PRE-destination?

this question cuts to the very quick of whether God is required for morals, IMO.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:34 pm

callmeslick wrote:
CUDA wrote:Whats your thoughts on PRE-destination?

this question cuts to the very quick of whether God is required for morals, IMO.

I had a very spirited debate about this with a good friend a few years ago. the research and discussion went on for a couple of weeks. it made me look hard to find why I believe what I believe.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:36 pm

Pandora wrote:seems relevant. TED talk by Frans de Waal, one of my favourite primatologists, about moral behavior in animals.

So, if animals, can and do behave morally, doesn't this not quite clearly show that morals don't need a God (at least not a belief in god or adherence to religion). Then again, we find that primates do more and more things that we once thought were possible --- maybe they have religion/superstition as well?

(sorry, this seems more related to the original point, not to what you are discussing now)

I've said from the very start of this thread you do not need God to be Moral.

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:43 pm

Your obviously referring to this:

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory

I think first off you cannot build the concept of pre-destination without taking all those others verses into consideration too. I think it goes more towards this idea in Revelations:

And all the inhabitants of The Earth will worship it, those who are not written in The Book of Life of The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

But we are ourselves are also under obligation to "put to death the misdeeds of the body." So

that God knew before hand how He would redeem us,But we are ourselves are also under obligation to "put to death the misdeeds of the body."

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Here is obviously talking about the same day. There is a great deal more scripture that demands a Holy life compared to one obscure reference to pre-destination.

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:48 pm

24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Even here Paul declares that if he doesn't bring his body under subjection he would be disqualified, so our present day understanding of pre-destination does not stand to scripture by any means.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:58 pm

Your obviously referring to this:

UHM

K.I.S.S.

are you a Calvinist? Armenian or neither?

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:02 pm

Cuda, my beliefs are built on nothing less and nothing more than what is in the 66 books of the Bible. I am a Christian, but I have 2 advantages I think. First, I started reading when I was 6 without any pre-conceived ideas or interpretations and secondly, I don't forget anything. Everything I have said comes directly from the Bible, weighing every scripture in light of others

EDIT:

22 “How long will you who are simple love your simple ways?

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

LOL . I am a person who knows exactly what I believe in and they come on a synapse

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:06 pm

your not answering the question.

do you believe in pre-destination or not. it's a simple question with a simple answer. we can go into the scriptural reasons why later. you tend to over complicate the discussion. I know what the Bible says about the subject. you have not said what YOU believe

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:12 pm

Cuda, the answer is already in my response. Let's do this instead. What do you think about pre-destination? Let's see if your concept of the idea stands to the scriptures I quoted.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:26 pm

1John 2:2 wrote:He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

we'll play it your way. lets see if you can read my mind based on my scripture.

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:33 pm

Lol, Cuda, settle down man. It wasn't my intention to agitate you. I am curious though, how your idea of pre-destination fits in with Pauls own remarks of being disqualified. Do you really expect me to accept an idea of pre-destination that does not take that remark into account?

EDIT: Surely your idea of pre-destination doesn't involve you being more highly favored over others, seeing that the Bible plainly states that God wants no one to perish and all to come to repentance or that God is no respecter of persons?

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:51 pm

all I wanted to know was were you a Calvinist. believing that God chose you and only those that are chosen by God will go to heaven.
or are you an Arminian where you believe in total free will and the only reason you are saved is because you yourself sought out God.
or are you in the middle believing both. that God called you to him and you accepted.

quoting the scriptures on everything doesn't give always give a clear answer. there are many things that can be left to interpretation right or wrong. state your case and then if required back it up.

Point in case. I totally disagree with you on the Trinity. Christ was Not speaking in a parable.

A parable is [1] a succinct story, in prose or verse, which illustrates one or more instructive principles, or lessons, or (sometimes) a normative principle. It differs from a fable in that fables use animals, plants, inanimate objects, and forces of nature as characters, while parables generally feature human characters. It is a type of analogy.

Christ Made a statement that he would have the Father send another. the Holy Spirit. it was a statement not an analogy.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

John 15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

that is not a parable. Christ was making a promise to his disciples. one that he would send another and not leave them alone

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:00 pm

CUDA wrote:
You have your beliefs, I have my disbelief's.
if you think for a moment that anyone of us doesn't have times when we question you're sadly mistaken. our belief is a choice based on many MANY things, and is personal to each and everyone of us. I would never ask you to believe because I told you so. just as I would expect to not get criticized for my beliefs as I do by certain forum members.

But does having faith discourage questioning things in the world? Does it discourage even questioning the Bible? How rigid are your beliefs if something came along to put doubt on that? Myself, one of the reasons I don't believe in the Bible is I think it's too full of misogyny and paternalism. It's a man's manual on male power and existence. God is even thought of as male. Why would a God have to be male anyway?

On another tack, Christianity is considered a "tradition" in our country, just as Islam is in the Middle East and Buddhism is in parts of Asia. You personally may not question why I am an unbeliever, nor really care for that matter, but why do most Christians in general have trouble with those of us who don't follow the assumed "religious tradition" in our country, especially if people actively fight against it? The perceived War on Christmas is a good example.

I watched this exchange on Religion and Ethics. The good Reverend seemed angry throughout the whole thing that people were getting mad at Christians in general because of the actions of a few rogue Christians, like Fred Phelps' church for example. Then she questioned, somewhat angrily, that the problems in this country are that we're not all following Christian values and going off to church in this country because it's the "tradition".

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethi ... ous/14570/

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:03 pm

as another point, relating to the topic of morality, and US law and traditional ethics: I have heard it described, and very convincingly presented, that the bulk of the US citizenry's concept of ethics is rooted in the Puritan ethic. This, of course, is a Calvinist ideal that holds that those in society who are most successful are the chosen, and of course, the opposite is true of the less successful. One of the political science Professors I had in college wrote the first major study of this premise. I'm a bit skeptical of some of his claims, but it was, overall, a very convincing presentation that such a moral code lingered well into the 20th century.

references by Googling "David Larson"

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:32 pm

How does that go towards this current idea of the Trinity though? I never said there was no Holy Spirit, I just think you just have the wrong concept. All through the epistles Paul calls it the Father's Holy Spirit. In another place he says that no one knows the thoughts of God, except the Spirit of God. In another it says Jesus will subject Himself and in the one you just quoted it says He does everything His Father commands Him. This is surely not in keeping with the current idea of 3 different people making up one God. Jesus is surely subordinate to the Father. Paul clearly makes a distinction between Jesus and God. You cannot take one scripture and make a whole doctrine out of it. You accuse me of using too many scriptures, How else do you expect to really understand these things unless you do. So, let me ask you this then, how does your current view of the Trinity stand in light of this verse?

24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:36 pm

tunnelcat wrote:But does having faith discourage questioning things in the world?

Doesnt me.

Does it discourage even questioning the Bible?

if you do not question then how can you learn, as is being demonstrated in this thread flip and I both have a good knowledge of the Bible, and yet we don't agree fully on certain matters. does it matter?? not in the overall concept of our salvation. it does matter if we choose to teach others improperly, which the Bible warns against. there is nothing wrong with questioning.

How rigid are your beliefs if something came along to put doubt on that? Myself, one of the reasons I don't believe in the Bible is I think it's too full of misogyny and paternalism. It's a man's manual on male power and existence. God is even thought of as male. Why would a God have to be male anyway?

everyone doubts. they are liars if they tell you otherwise

On another tack, Christianity is considered a "tradition" in our country, just as Islam is in the Middle East and Buddhism is in parts of Asia. You personally may not question why I am an unbeliever, nor really care for that matter, but why do most Christians in general have trouble with those of us who don't follow the assumed "religious tradition" in our country, especially if people actively fight against it? The perceived War on Christmas is a good example.

the perception on the "war on Christmas" is valid. you yourself stated the there is a "tradition" in our country. and many Blacks also have their "traditions" that they cling to. an attempt by a minority group to stop those traditions, can rightfully so be perceived as a war against their beliefs

I watched this exchange on Religion and Ethics. The good Reverend seemed angry throughout the whole thing that people were getting mad at Christians in general because of the actions of a few rogue Christians, like Fred Phelps' church for example. Then she questioned, somewhat angrily, that the problems in this country are that we're not all following Christian values and going off to church in this country because it's the "tradition".

I have a problem with the term "Christian Values" thats very subjective. I currently choose to not associate myself with any main stream religion. I prefer to label myself as the first Christians did and call myself a follower of the way. I try to live(and fail) my life the way Christ lived his.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:42 pm

CUDA wrote:I currently choose to not associate myself with any main stream religion. I prefer to label myself as the first Christians did and call myself a follower of the way. I try to live(and fail) my life the way Christ lived his.

this would head too far off the thread, but PM me with this statement in mind, sometime when get free time. Your schedule....I'm retired!

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:54 pm

flip wrote:How does that go towards this current idea of the Trinity though?

what is the Current definition of the Trinity???? that is the same definition that has been expounded since the First century. by John

the Father IS the Holy spirit
the Son IS the Holy Spirit
and the Holy Spirit is an individual

1 John 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:03 pm

That is not how I read it.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:05 pm

I realize that, heading home from work. I'll go in deeper later

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:09 pm

the Father IS the Holy spirit
the Son IS the Holy Spirit
and the Holy Spirit is an individual

This makes no sense.

EDIT: Also Cuda, you confuse even what I have said. I said that Jesus spoke figuratively and in parables. In this instance, Jesus was talking figuratively. Paul speaks plainly.

In your quoted verse above it says that Jesus came by water and blood. The blood represents life and the water represents the body. It is still only speaking of 2 in that verse.

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:06 pm

Let's look at this from a different angle Cuda.

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.

Here it is stated that only the Father knows the day of the end. So, certain knowledge is withheld even from the Son.

11 For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Here we see it stated that only the Spirit of God knows his own thoughts within Himself.
Do you see how this contradicts your beliefs?

The Holy Spirit is the Fathers spirit just like our thoughts are from our own spirit.
Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ made into a human.
If Jesus was the Holy Spirit, He would know the day too.

flip · Post by **flip** » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:19 am

You know, I love the Word. I love the wisdom it gives and truth contained within it. I love the Lord Jesus for who He is and what He did for us. I love the Father that He loved us so much as to give us His Holy Spirit so that we could actually partake of His nature. Every since I was a kid I have handled His Word with great care and was stunned to notice that addition made by the King James translators. They were the ones to decide what was accepted into the Bible and what was not. It was the first time anyone had decided to make an official canon of the Christian faith. On top of that, they added just one verse that did not belong, an interpretation of their own. If not for that, this notion and concept of the Trinity would not exist as it does today. After all, that was the only one for a long time. It's up to others if they are going to blindly accept tradition or believe just the word, but I do know this. It obscures the meaning, it conceals your inheritance and it gives unbelievers the wrong idea about God, and I hate that.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:07 pm

Flip, the notion of the Trinity goes back waaaay earlier than the KJV, all the way back to the second and third centuries. I don't really have a horse in this race either way, but it wasn't something that just popped up by the addition of one verse a few hundred years ago.

flip · Post by **flip** » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:16 pm

It is not scripturally sound and the current understanding of the Trinity is in direct contradiction to those scriptures I have quoted. Only one can be true and I'll stake my bet on the Bible

. I run in these circles, so I know how people grasp the concept of the Trinity. If these people are staking their faith on the Bible being true, then they must start wondering why they can't explain the idea coherently and with strict adherence to what is plainly written. I'm only gonna get about 7-8 hours sleep over it myself, but with a few misconceptions out of the way, I can now move past just words and arguments to demonstration of power