Economic Impact Study

[callmeslick]

a study was released in March, looking at the feasability of Pennsylvania going to a statewide single payer health insurance plan. The results might startle folks, but it's something worth considering and also pondering what would be the effect of a NATIONWIDE single payer setup.
http://pachurchesadvocacy.org/weblog/?p=14146

[Tunnelcat]

We've got a group of doctors here with a similar idea. They are meeting quite a bit of resistance however. Makes you wonder what it will take to make this major of a change to our present system with all the resistance from people who want to hold on to their private choice mantra.

http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index. ... rs_wi.html

[Krom]

Everyone in the whole universe already knows that the single payer system works better than the current system ever will, it isn't even a debate. They know it works better, and that is exactly why it won't be implemented. Because "works better" does not mean mean "works more profitably". If you want affordable healthcare, the solution is quite simple: Do not seek it in The United States of America, ever.

[Tunnelcat]

That's our problem. People in the U.S. are wedded to the idea of personal choice, ie., freedom of choice. But once you privatize something to get that choice, it automatically gets more expensive. How long before price overrides choice and makes choice irrelevant, or impossible?

[Krom]

The idea that privatization automatically leads to increased freedom of choice is false. Private monopolies grant no more choice than public monopolies would (meaning the only choice you get is: take it, or leave it), although on occasion private monopolies are more motivated to present the illusion of choice in order to more easily maintain their control.

[Tunnelcat]

Well, there is that taking a profit off the top problem that directly adds to consumer costs. But hey, that's the free market. Making money off of fixing, or trying to fix, the suffering of people is the American way.

[Spidey]

It’s very possible that a single payer system is the best way to provide health care using insurance, but it has yet to be proven to me that the best way to provide health care is thru any kind of insurance at all.

[callmeslick]

huh?? I mean healthcare is distinct from health insurance, but the best health outcomes(reflecting healthcare, I figure) come from nations which have universal heath insurance.

[Spidey]

But, the only model they have to compare with is the private insurance model. There is no “no insurance of any kind” model anywhere in the world to compare it to. (save countries where they don’t even have a basic level of care let alone insurance)

So, I would have to restrict any comparisons to the developed world.

My theory has always been, if a provider had to charge what the market would bear for its services, you wouldn’t need insurance, because they would have to charge your grandmother what she could afford to pay for that eye operation, or not do that kind of work. Therefore if you still need to pump taxpayer money into a single-payer system to pay overinflated medical services, (so the providers are willing to do them) the system is still more expensive than it needs to be.

And all of this extending people’s life a few months at the cost of millions of dollars…is just BS as far as I’m concerned, and doesn’t belong in any kind of system…private or public.

Yes…just die already.

[Sergeant Thorne]

We've got a group of doctors here with a similar idea. They are meeting quite a bit of resistance however. Makes you wonder what it will take to make this major of a change to our present system with all the resistance from people who want to hold on to their private choice mantra.

http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index. ... rs_wi.html

I'll tell you what it would take. It would take you and every other ★■◆● (no offense <3) who wants a single-payer system moving to a country that has one.

[Spidey]

Yea, private choice...who needs that crap.

You know what I think, I think the government should make employer provided health insurance illegal, and force everyone to pay for their own…out of pocket, just like they intend to do to me in 2014.


Ha Ha Ha, you know many providers in this country are already dropping off of the Medicaid roles, because they can’t make ends meet, what is the government going to do…pass a law that providers must accept a single payer…this isn’t Japan ya know.

You do know that the insurance companies in this country aren’t the only profit hungry players in the health care business, how are you going to control the need for profit by the providers?

Medical school and playing golf all day is expensive.

[callmeslick]

amazing, isn't it, how well the single payer system works all over the world?

[woodchip]

I'm curious.... King Abdullah, arguably one the richest men in the world, could of went to any of these "single payer" countries in the world. Yet he chose to come to America for treatment. Why?

[callmeslick]

I'm curious.... King Abdullah, arguably one the richest men in the world, could of went to any of these "single payer" countries in the world. Yet he chose to come to America for treatment. Why?

he likely owns a chunk of the hospital he went to. Seriously, most of the house of Saud have connections and even property over here. You're, as usual, setting up goofy strawmen to bolster a weak argument. Explain to us all how US health outcomes don't even make the top 20 list of nations, or why the average US citizen pays, out of pocket, three times what the average citizen pays in Canada, Japan, France or Germany.

[woodchip]

I'm curious.... King Abdullah, arguably one the richest men in the world, could of went to any of these "single payer" countries in the world. Yet he chose to come to America for treatment. Why?

he likely owns a chunk of the hospital he went to. Seriously, most of the house of Saud have connections and even property over here. You're, as usual, setting up goofy strawmen to bolster a weak argument.

So he came here for a poorer class treatment simply because he "likely" owns a piece of the hospital. That's weak even for you slick. I suggest you drink your coffee before handling the keyboard

[callmeslick]

no one is arguing, Woody, that first-rate treatment isn't available in the US to anyone with the SERIOUS cash to afford it. The issue is that those who cannot afford it are getting run into bankruptcy or being denied even lower level treatments. How on earth can you think the rest of us are dumb enough to see any equation between treatment options for multi-billionaires and average citizens?

[woodchip]

Well I'm no billionare, have Blue care insurance that costs 270.00 a month and when I needed my Mitral Valve repaired I had the operation done at one of the top hospitals in the country. Kinda shoots your premise in the foot eh?

[callmeslick]

not really, Woody. Apples to oranges, actually. I'm glad for you, especially, with your mitrial valve issue getting resolved, but the truth is that millions of your fellow citizens(and mine) are not so fortunate. And that, for me, is a problem. Frankly, that ought to be seen by EVERYONE as a problem.

[Spidey]

Well, we all see the world differently.

What I would like to see is reasonably priced health care…period.

Insurance is a luxury, basic health care is not, it’s a basic human right. Health insurance should be available for the chronic or extreme care issues, and should by all rights be an expensive service, but it should have no affect on basic care as it does now.

The entire system is screwed.

[Krom]

Well I'm no billionare, have Blue care insurance that costs 270.00 a month and when I needed my Mitral Valve repaired I had the operation done at one of the top hospitals in the country. Kinda shoots your premise in the foot eh?

Not really, you should look at how much the operation was actually billed for, not how much you pay per month.

[flip]

I think Spideys on to something. A friend of my wife's recently needed an MRI for her son. If she paid out of pocket, it would cost her $275.00. If she went through her insurance, the deductible was $300.00 and total cost well over $1000.00! There is something inherently broken about that.

[Spidey]

You bet!

Explain to us all how US health outcomes don't even make the top 20 list of nations

More misleading “statistics”…

So if a tennis player is ranked #30 in the world, does that mean he’s a bad player.

Can you guarantee if the US adopted a single payer system, we wouldn’t drop even lower.

Exactly which of the many various single payer systems in use today are you advocating?

How much of the better health outcomes of other countries can be attributed to better attitudes toward nutrition, exercise, and other things like environment, gene pool, etc.

And last but not least…how do we know there are not even better models than single payer?

The ones without a question mark are rhetorical.

[Tunnelcat]

Well I'm no billionare, have Blue care insurance that costs 270.00 a month and when I needed my Mitral Valve repaired I had the operation done at one of the top hospitals in the country. Kinda shoots your premise in the foot eh?

Not really, you should look at how much the operation was actually billed for, not how much you pay per month.

If one can even find out what the true costs really are!

[Spidey]

Well, I know the aspirins were probably about 5 bucks each, and the plastic hose that they used for the drip, was probably about 35 bucks…

[Will Robinson]

Well I'm no billionare, have Blue care insurance that costs 270.00 a month and when I needed my Mitral Valve repaired I had the operation done at one of the top hospitals in the country. Kinda shoots your premise in the foot eh?

That is like 1/4 the cost I was paying! Is that total premium or an employee share of an employers plan?...a really good plan from an employees perspective

[Will Robinson]

... Explain to us all how US health outcomes don't even make the top 20 list of nations, or why the average US citizen pays, out of pocket, three times what the average citizen pays in Canada, Japan, France or Germany.

Adjust the cost to include the difference in income tax rates and it probably isn't much of a spread in the cost as you imply. France is working on a 70% top rate which is caused by not being able to afford its programs and resulting in rich people leaving the country. So apples to apples please and consider sustainability too! Who cares how cheap it is if it is also going to dry up and blow away...

[woodchip]

Well I'm no billionare, have Blue care insurance that costs 270.00 a month and when I needed my Mitral Valve repaired I had the operation done at one of the top hospitals in the country. Kinda shoots your premise in the foot eh?

That is like 1/4 the cost I was paying! Is that total premium or an employee share of an employers plan?...a really good plan from an employees perspective

You're prolly paying the family rate where-as I'm just paying for myself. Plan is in my name but my company pays the bill

[CobGobbler]

And this is the company that you wholly own?

[woodchip]

of course