another signpost on the road to serfdom.....

[callmeslick]

http://lifeinc.today.com/_news/2013/04/ ... study-says

now, most people know that market crashes, and speculative bubbles tend to re-entrench the rich, but these numbers are staggering.

[Tunnelcat]

Oh, you can't show that callmeslick. That's slamming the character of those nice, angelic wealthy people we should be bowing to, who give all the slob serf slaves of this country their sub-subsistant wage jobs.

[Spidey]

Slick really seems to enjoy rubbing it in.

[woodchip]

So slick, how much richer did you get?

[callmeslick]

oh, lovely....just personalize it to me, and ignore the real message. Which is, IS THIS THE ECONOMIC TRAJECTORY YOU WISH THE NATION TO CONTINUE??? So sorry for the caps, but really, folks, this is still more evidence of what has been set up. Whether I benefitted, and to what extent, ought to be immaterial to most all of the rest of you. What should concern you is whether the current accepted economic plan(which Obama has desperately tried to reverse for the betterment of most citizens) is the ticket to serfdom for most of you. Enjoy the ride, you apparently don't care enough to address it*.....apparently it's easier on the brain to demonize 'liberals' or point fingers and spout lies about the President. As I said, sit back and enjoy the trip....





*I would be remiss to discount that some of you are actually naive or flat-out dumb enough to think you can take matters into your own hands due to some level of personal armament. To which, I will respond with all due respect: Bwahahahahahahahhha!!

[Top Gun]

I just had a European acquaintance of mine remark in amazement at how about half of Americans have proceeded for a few decades now to support economic policies which cause them direct harm. And so we've managed to wind up with results like that.

[Sergeant Thorne]

Yeah, Obama looks desperate... about guns.

[Spidey]

Yea, we all got the “real message”…

Obama is awesome.
Republicans are evil…

Blah Blah Blah.

[Will Robinson]

... What should concern you is whether the current accepted economic plan(which Obama has desperately tried to reverse for the betterment of most citizens) is the ticket to serfdom for most of you. ....

Lol!

While your nose is so far up there you might as well check him for polyps and save the taxpayers the proctologists expense on the Presidents next check up.

[Ferno]

left versus right in three, two, one...

[flip]

Bwahahahaha, Slick, you can say what you want, but I guarantee you when it gets that bad, nobody is gonna be happy

EDIT: Honestly, it will just whimper along. People born in the 80's have no idea how the world used to be. They don't remember how clean the air used to smell, or remember clear clean water everywhere. The only ones who will be overtly distressed with the repression will be be those 40 or older and they will be dead soon enough. You don't miss what you never had.

[Top Gun]

EDIT: Honestly, it will just whimper along. People born in the 80's have no idea how the world used to be. They don't remember how clean the air used to smell, or remember clear clean water everywhere.

...what are you talking about? Our air and water were a hell of a lot nastier 30 or 40 years ago than they are now, CO2 content nonwithstanding.

[flip]

I'm sorry you are sadly mistaken. 30 years ago we drink the water straight from the river and it was crystal clear. Today it is a brown nasty mess that you can't see past the surface. What year were you born? I have a strong suspicion you didn't even exist 30-40 years, which proves my point exactly.

[Spidey]

Depends on where you are, the major cities like Philadelphia used to be so bad you couldn’t see the end of a long block, now we are getting into the stage where the oceans and water tables, along with certain rivers are feeling the brunt.

The short term pollution in major cities has been substantially reduced, where the long term type of pollution is coming home to roost, in rural areas.

[callmeslick]

I just had a European acquaintance of mine remark in amazement at how about half of Americans have proceeded for a few decades now to support economic policies which cause them direct harm. And so we've managed to wind up with results like that.

thank you, TG, THAT was my point, precisely. Keep on supporting the policies that DIRECTLY do you harm at your own peril. For thirty years or more, the US electorate has tacitly allowed our economy to evolve into a system that favors investment income to labor income, weakens organized labor, puts tax burdens(in the form of fees and social service taxes) onto the workers disproportionately and slowly erodes protections(regulations) for the average citizen against unfair banking,insurance and other large-scale operations who would prey upon them. Sad to watch, and extremely frustrating for those of us who would like to see a self-sustaining middle class for the purposes of societal stability if nothing else.

[callmeslick]

Bwahahahaha, Slick, you can say what you want, but I guarantee you when it gets that bad, nobody is gonna be happy

hell, flip, I agree completely. Why do you think I pound this theme? I don't want my grandchildren to live in some gated community.

EDIT: Honestly, it will just whimper along. People born in the 80's have no idea how the world used to be. They don't remember how clean the air used to smell, or remember clear clean water everywhere. The only ones who will be overtly distressed with the repression will be be those 40 or older and they will be dead soon enough. You don't miss what you never had.

wow, a depressing view, and not terribly far-fetched, either. Hope you're wrong, but suspect you aren't......

[Tunnelcat]

These poor slobs are already serfs and slaves. Many of them dead now too.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/ ... 6P20130424

I'm sorry you are sadly mistaken. 30 years ago we drink the water straight from the river and it was crystal clear. Today it is a brown nasty mess that you can't see past the surface. What year were you born? I have a strong suspicion you didn't even exist 30-40 years, which proves my point exactly.

Sh*t! By the 1960's, most major rivers, including our Willamette River, were so dirty and loaded with sewage, one could almost walk on them, if one could get near enough to not gag from the smell that is. Drink the water? Not on your life, at least if you didn't want dysentery, or death. Eat the fish? Couldn't even catch any worth eating, if you dared.

http://www.ohs.org/the-oregon-history-p ... radise.cfm

I saw Ice Chasers on Nat Geo the other night. Quite revealing and a good indicator that our climate is getting warmer. The video is 19 minutes long, but his time lapse pictures are fascinating, and frightening. The video image is a little bigger if you watch it on the TED site.

http://ed.ted.com/lessons/james-balog-t ... e-ice-loss

[youtube]rQzHI_MhVw0[/youtube]

[Top Gun]

I'm sorry you are sadly mistaken. 30 years ago we drink the water straight from the river and it was crystal clear. Today it is a brown nasty mess that you can't see past the surface. What year were you born? I have a strong suspicion you didn't even exist 30-40 years, which proves my point exactly.

What year I was born is irrelevant, provided I know how to read, which I can assure you I do. And what I know is that, in the 60s, cities were up in arms over their rivers actually catching fire (though apparently the Cincinnati case was somewhat overblown), and by the 70s we were starting to figure out that, oh hey, using CFCs was literally tearing a hole in the ozone layer. I'm not sure what stream in the middle of nowhere you're talking about (though drinking straight out of ANY stream is just asking to get a nice case of intestinal parasites), but taken as a whole, we've made big strides in cleaning our act up. Though now there are some strident voices who seem to suggest that we should be regressing in that regard...

[callmeslick]

Yea, we all got the “real message”…

Obama is awesome.
Republicans are evil…

Blah Blah Blah.

sorry, but no....in fact, you seemingly have no clue of the message. If you continue to nitpick over party politics, you will likely wake up enslaved some day. The only thing I said about Obama was an indication that he gets the nature of the problem, it's severity, and how much has to be done to reverse the trends...just re-read and I said nothing about Republicans whatsoever. You see, therein lies the divisiveness that has allowed a handful to rig the game. The simpleminded liberal v. conservative banter over relatively trivial 'social' issues and bogus assertions about taxation and the talking down of both education and the social safety net have clouded the public consciousness.

[flip]

What Spidey said. Of course by then there were concentrated areas of pollution in highly congested areas but Atlanta was not one of them . The Chattahochee and all tributaries were crystal clear and Sweetwater creek, one of its tributaries was just that. Hell, I had never seen a traffic jam in Atlanta until I was nearing my 20's. On a brighter note, the clean water act here has finally started taking effect noticeably. So maybe better said is that most people, regardless of age, have never seen clean water or smelled clean earthy air.

[callmeslick]

complete aside, based on the glowing reviews of environmental REGULATION by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT and it's positive, albeit slow and costly effects upon the common good. Just sayin'..............

[Spidey]

Yea, we all got the “real message”…

Obama is awesome.
Republicans are evil…

Blah Blah Blah.

sorry, but no....in fact, you seemingly have no clue of the message. If you continue to nitpick over party politics, you will likely wake up enslaved some day. The only thing I said about Obama was an indication that he gets the nature of the problem, it's severity, and how much has to be done to reverse the trends...just re-read and I said nothing about Republicans whatsoever. You see, therein lies the divisiveness that has allowed a handful to rig the game. The simpleminded liberal v. conservative banter over relatively trivial 'social' issues and bogus assertions about taxation and the talking down of both education and the social safety net have clouded the public consciousness.

And just exactly what would you have me do?

[Tunnelcat]

Don't get your knickers in a twist all of you right wing debt-is-bad trolls, but it appears that Paul Krugman is right. Austerity is not so good for an economy, or a nation.................

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ti ... 47189.html

[callmeslick]

And just exactly what would you have me do?

....a fair enough question, I suppose. There is likely no definitive answer, but a start would include:
1. Fighting for fairness(yeah, I know, you don't like that term, but....) in the treatment of working people, and levelling of the economic playing field.
2. Rejecting, and searching out, the influences of a monied aristocracy upon political discourse.
3. Get ACTIVE in politics, especially local politics, as those feed into larger-scale politics. Develop a network of likeminded folks, as that is the only
way within our system to counter the influence of the powerful few.
4. Start looking at issues through the lens of YOUR personal economics, and those of your family. Stop listening to anyone, and I mean anyone, who
wishes to simplify any issue to 'left vs right' , 'conservative values', 'progressive principles' or anything of the like. Solutions are COMPLEX, and those
who would over-simplify are generally doing so to serve as a smokescreen for some larger, generally negative, agenda.

[Will Robinson]

..
2. Rejecting, and searching out, the influences of a monied aristocracy upon political discourse. ...

Says the rich guy, of 'old money', who likes to brag about the money he gives political action committees to effect political discourse...

[Sergeant Thorne]

Well, at least he helped us with the "searching out" part.

Slick, that is the best post I've seen from you yet, with a few reservation... I find the liberal/socialist plan to level the economic playing field to be a departure from American ideals of individual liberty. I'm not saying there isn't an issue there, or it can't be solved, but when I look at the future of solving one problem by creating a new one it doesn't leave me very supportive of what on the surface sounds good. I believe there are straight-forward ways to solve this problem, and the only reason you folks aren't pushing them is that you have a fundamental disagreement with classical America that you are withholding from the argument. Secondly I think the handling of fairness for workers has been damaging to the economy, to a degree, so I'm wary of that. I think maybe some of the wrong people have been involved on those solutions.

[callmeslick]

..
2. Rejecting, and searching out, the influences of a monied aristocracy upon political discourse. ...

Says the rich guy, of 'old money', who likes to brag about the money he gives political action committees to effect political discourse...

luckily for you, I tend to be a contrarian, and give money to causes that help the general public. As I say, think for yourself, and ignore the warnings at your own peril, or that of your grandchildren. Personalizing it to me serves no positive good, as I stated earlier, just gives yourownself less reason to actually do the work of thinking.

[callmeslick]

Well, at least he helped us with the "searching out" part.

Slick, that is the best post I've seen from you yet, with a few reservation... I find the liberal/socialist plan to level the economic playing field to be a departure from American ideals of individual liberty.

thanks for the compliments...I think. The problem, as I see it, is that if the working people are essentially economic slaves, the 'ideals of American liberty' are essentially worthless.

I'm not saying there isn't an issue there, or it can't be solved, but when I look at the future of solving one problem by creating a new one it doesn't leave me very supportive of what on the surface sounds good. I believe there are straight-forward ways to solve this problem, and the only reason you folks aren't pushing them is that you have a fundamental disagreement with classical America that you are withholding from the argument.

if so, feel free to illustrate the point. Frankly, all I ever espouse here, or elsewhere, is a return to the playing field circa 1955. In other words, tight regulation and separation of investment, banking and insurance, income tax rate with a very high top end rate for income over a certain level(I suggest 90% of all over $2 million), strong Federal enforcement of labor rights and support of Unions, regulation of deceptive business practices and (this is a bit forward of 1955) a robust social safety net that includes cradle to grave healthcare coverage, food, housing and educational assistance.

Secondly I think the handling of fairness for workers has been damaging to the economy, to a degree, so I'm wary of that. I think maybe some of the wrong people have been involved on those solutions.

it turns out, stuff like increased minimum wages and worker's safety and the like do NOT have an adverse effect on the economy, absent of a system that rewards short term profit increases made by shipping jobs out and threatening more jobs at home.

[Spidey]

Well slick, I already support a flat tax, that would help some of the tax issues you mentioned, and I have pushed it for many years.

I’m going to be honest here, at this point, I don’t really care what happens to people in this country…why you ask…because I’m simply wasted…I spent the greater part of 30 years telling people to buy American made goods, because I knew what the future held if we didn’t…but all I ever got from that effort was flak and ★■◆● thrown in my face, from excuses to outright insults and abuse.

So, here we are, exactly where I said we would be…and people still want to blame this party or that evil corporation…so I’m basically thru with any kind of concerted effort to try to influence people’s minds.

I do what I do, every day…I drag this decrepit body out of bed…and do the best I can. The future is out of my hands. So if the future of this country is serfdom, then so be it…I already did my best for many years.

[Tunnelcat]

Don't worry Spidey. I'm in your camp. I make it my mission to buy as many American-made goods as I can find when I need them, as difficult as that is sometimes.

[flip]

I’m going to be honest here, at this point, I don’t really care what happens to people in this country…why you ask…because I’m simply wasted…I spent the greater part of 30 years telling people to buy American made goods, because I knew what the future held if we didn’t…but all I ever got from that effort was flak and **** thrown in my face, from excuses to outright insults and abuse.

WoW. I thought I was the only one and I feel almost exactly the same way now. I started when I was 15, when America and it's nature was a great deal different than today but the policies for our present situation were being lauded. Then I was chicken-headed charley, now to no satisfaction, I was exactly right.

[Ferno]

I gotta say, this has to be one of the most mellow, and enjoyable threads in EnC in a while. This is the kind of stuff I like to see.

As for adding some content to this thread, I'm still collecting slivers of thought to put in a post.

[Tunnelcat]

This is how Americans become serfs, because they're clueless idiots. They so greedily crave an endless bounty of products, that they don't really care what happens to those who make those products, even if those workers are their American neighbors. It's also those same companies that worship their bottom line before the well being of their employees. If they even cared one iota, we wouldn't even need the unions either.

http://gma.yahoo.com/twinkies-return-ho ... money.html

[callmeslick]

This is how Americans become serfs, because they're clueless idiots. They so greedily crave an endless bounty of products, that they don't really care what happens to those who make those products, even if those workers are their American neighbors. It's also those same companies that worship their bottom line before the well being of their employees. If they even cared one iota, we wouldn't even need the unions either.

http://gma.yahoo.com/twinkies-return-ho ... money.html

once upon a time, the vast majority of working Americans would boycott those products, but, a marvelous by-product of the political hate-machine and the blame-game contests of the past 30 years has been to turn working Americans against the very institution which built a strong middle class. Yes, 'conservatives' it was the Unions that did that job, not the corporate employers, who would have remained content with higher profits and less benefits. Few of those employers(Henry Ford being a notable exception, and the DuPonts as well)saw the benefits of a well-paid, stable longterm workforce upon the long-term health of their bottom lines. Few still do today, as it is very easy to rationalize that profits can be made outside the US purchasing realm.

[Tunnelcat]

Ah, but we can't boycott most of them now, because most of the products we get nowadays comes from low wage labor, usually from foreign countries. Even products made here have few benefits and lower wages for their workers. The unions are toast because they fell into that age old "entitlement" trap that any organization falls into when they gain too much power and get fat, happy and corrupt. So when the proverbial global arbitrage clusterf*ck started hitting the fan, they overplayed their hands to the very end like sticks in the mud. Now we are at the mercy of multinational corporations, who use the excuse that we HAVE to settle for ANY job they create and offer or else just buzz off and go unemployed.

[snoopy]

This is how Americans become serfs, because they're clueless idiots. They so greedily crave an endless bounty of products, that they don't really care what happens to those who make those products, even if those workers are their American neighbors. It's also those same companies that worship their bottom line before the well being of their employees. If they even cared one iota, we wouldn't even need the unions either.

http://gma.yahoo.com/twinkies-return-ho ... money.html

once upon a time, the vast majority of working Americans would boycott those products, but, a marvelous by-product of the political hate-machine and the blame-game contests of the past 30 years has been to turn working Americans against the very institution which built a strong middle class. Yes, 'conservatives' it was the Unions that did that job, not the corporate employers, who would have remained content with higher profits and less benefits. Few of those employers(Henry Ford being a notable exception, and the DuPonts as well)saw the benefits of a well-paid, stable longterm workforce upon the long-term health of their bottom lines. Few still do today, as it is very easy to rationalize that profits can be made outside the US purchasing realm.

See, I don't know that I necessarily have a problem with this. If they were shipping the bakeries overseas, I'd be more pissed. Come talk to me about the evils of non-union work when there are stories about how terrible the pay, safety & benefits are at the plants.

On one hand: I've been annoyed by unions making it more difficult for me to work, and I perceive that the automaker's union had a big role in bringing down the US auto making industry.

On the other hand: I have sympathy for people being under-paid and over-worked, as I feel that I'm in that very position myself at the moment.

Both sides can be a problem - and I think the pendulum is going to swing back and forth over the years.

[Sergeant Thorne]

I'm being paid $11/hr, salaried, to work plenty of overtime turning around a failing rental department. I expect the steps I'm taking to double sales in the first 2 years (in the first year, if I can get everything done), and only grow from there. I'm being grossly underpaid (working on getting a performance/sales-based bonus agreement). But if I didn't consider it worth my time (education/experience, in this case), I could always apply elsewhere, or work my way into some other line of work. That might be quite an adjustment, but it seems to me that it's very doable.

What kind of a person are we talking about saving from the evil employers who jump over a dime to save the pennies and beg for the good workers to leave? Is the average worker really so stupid and lazy? Has it always been like that? Isn't the answer just to wise up? Why doesn't that answer satisfy this field of inquiry? (a couple of stupid questions in there, I'm sure, but I ask them anyway)

No offense, Snoopy. I don't know your situation, and I believe you have a family, which makes it more difficult even if you didn't have other reasons for staying-put.

[/rambling]

[Spidey]

The Hostess story is very sad, indeed.

The unions built the artificial middle class here in America, that being ordinary non skilled work that pays in the middle class range as opposed to the traditional middle class, consisting of craftsman, merchants and professionals…etc.

Now don’t get me wrong, I am not opposed to this kind of middle class, (I have in fact supported it with my hard earned money for decades) hell they gave birth to the consumer economy, we (used to) enjoy…but it must be understood that this kind of middle class, can only survive where people are actually willing to pay these prices for that type of labor.

Unions are great, but when collective bargaining becomes a form of mob rule and extortion…★■◆● happens.

[woodchip]

This is how Americans become serfs, because they're clueless idiots. They so greedily crave an endless bounty of products, that they don't really care what happens to those who make those products, even if those workers are their American neighbors. It's also those same companies that worship their bottom line before the well being of their employees. If they even cared one iota, we wouldn't even need the unions either.

http://gma.yahoo.com/twinkies-return-ho ... money.html

once upon a time, the vast majority of working Americans would boycott those products, but, a marvelous by-product of the political hate-machine and the blame-game contests of the past 30 years has been to turn working Americans against the very institution which built a strong middle class. Yes, 'conservatives' it was the Unions that did that job, not the corporate employers, who would have remained content with higher profits and less benefits. Few of those employers(Henry Ford being a notable exception, and the DuPonts as well)saw the benefits of a well-paid, stable longterm workforce upon the long-term health of their bottom lines. Few still do today, as it is very easy to rationalize that profits can be made outside the US purchasing realm.

At one time unions had their place and did a good job. Over time though, the unions image began to change. They became thugs in the eyes of many (as evidenced by the SEIU knocking down a black Teaparty member and more recently the thuggery the unions displayed at a right to work rally in Michigan) and as such, people were less and less prone to back them. Blatant funding of less than desirable political candidates with no regard for what the rank and file wanted was another nail. On top of all this, foreign auto companies non union work forces are approaching par with the domestic auto companies:

"In at least one case last year, workers for a foreign automaker for the first time averaged more in base pay and bonuses than UAW members working for domestic automakers, according to an economist for the Center for Automotive Research and figures supplied to the Free Press by auto companies."

So slick, in some ways you may be right but the unions cut their own throats and now people are realizing they don't have to have a union job to make good wages.

[callmeslick]

well, Woody, people will certainly regret it when organized labor has zero clout, because those benefits and wages will erode further. I say further, because, frankly, from the anecdotes I hear from young people, benefits are LOUSY compared to most of my career, and pay is essentially stagnant.