possible upgrade

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Sun May 05, 2013 1:21 am

If it's necessary I couldn't tell you -- I don't OC since I need reliable machines. Yes, Ivy Bridge CPUs run hot, but that's mainly because of the smaller die, esp. when you move into OC territory. From what I see on the net something like a 500MHz OC should not be a problem at all.

ReadyMan wrote:Here's what I have:

asus p6t mb (vanilla not deluxe)
i7 920 (OC'ed at 3ghz)
Vigor monsoon 3 cooler
corsair 750w PSU
6gb corsair xms3 (3x2gb) DDR3 1333
GTX 670 4GB (only part I upgraded since 2009)

The system is running well [..]

Keep in mind:

- the Z77 chipset is faster
- the 3770k runs at up to 3.8GHz out of the box
- you get more and faster RAM
- your GTX will connect via PCIe 3.0
- your OS will run off a 6Gps SATA SSD

That is plenty faster than your current system

If you need more power, this guide and this article are good starting points.

ReadyMan · Post by **ReadyMan** » Sun May 05, 2013 3:01 am

From what I've read, the "lidding" is not necessary, but does enable cooler temps. Yeah, not gonna do that.
But it's making me rethink the cooler. Reading the Newegg reviews, it seems most reviews are using H100i closed loop coolers.
So I set off on researching water coolers and came to the same conclusion Krom posted: Water does about the same as air coolers, unless you get the custom coolers.
Seems air is the way to go for "average" OC'ers. The article Grendel posted lists the Noctua NH-D14 (which amazon has for $80),
the PHANTEKS PH-TC14PE 5x?8mm looks great too! (at $85)
http://www.amazon.com/PHANTEKS-PH-TC14P ... s=phanteks

Seems like the Phanteks is the air cooler of choice after reading a lot of reviews.

Heh! sorry. I'm on information overload. This "lidding" issue took me by surprise. Glad it's not needed. Seems a slightly better cooler will get me cooler temps, which will prolong the CPU life and give me more stability.
With about $100 for the cooler, which seems the best choice?

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Sun May 05, 2013 3:29 am

Personally I would go for the Noctua, but I'm biased

It is slightly better than the Phanteks tho.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sun May 05, 2013 8:16 am

Yeah, the major advantage a water cooler has over an air cooler is its ability to transport heat a great distance away from the CPU efficiently. So at the end of the day, an air cooler tops out at about 120MM fan size because heat pipes and traditional heat sinks can only efficiently move heat about that far away from the CPU, so making the heat sink any larger has no effect. Water coolers on the other hand can easily and efficiently transport the heat dozens of FEET away from the CPU. What this means is that the longer reach of the water cooler allows it to have a greater radiative surface area, meaning it lets you have a gigantic radiator that is much larger than any air cooling heat sink could be and it does it without a significant loss of efficiency. Coolers are slaves to surface area, the more of it they have, the more heat they can dissipate into the air. So basically a 120MM single fan radiator in a closed loop water cooler is not going to perform significantly better than a 120MM air cooler, but a 360x120x40MM closed loop radiator WILL perform significantly better.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Sun May 05, 2013 8:33 am

You can have all of the bells and whistles with on board sound…but without proper board layout you can still have some problems. I know someone that has a high end onboard sound system, and you can here his HDs running thru the speakers.

So, I would be cautious…make sure you have at least one spare slot…just in case.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sun May 05, 2013 9:16 am

Yeah, like I said I've been using on board sound for over a decade, but I'm also using a digital output which eliminates the potential for that kind of noise to get in the lines. I remember in the olden days being able to hear disk/cd access through headphones and that was through a dedicated sound card too, so even that won't perfectly isolate you from noise. I figure when this sound system of mine starts to break down or have serious problems, I'll likely get something that can pull the audio from DisplayPort or HDMI. That way I can pipe 8 channel PCM to it, since Toslink/SPDIF only supports 2 channels (unless you encode to DTS or AC3, but those are lossy formats).

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Sun May 05, 2013 9:25 am

True…it’s just me…I live in a kinda hyper modular world, where I always tend to leave myself options, rather than eliminate them. (where possible)

BTW the example I gave is using PCM over SPDIF.

ReadyMan · Post by **ReadyMan** » Sun May 05, 2013 12:09 pm

I think I'll upgrade to the Phanteks white Cooler. It's just a few more dollars, but it'll keep the already hot IVY bridge cooler for more stability.
After all the reading I did, it seems the Phanteks and the Noctua are almost the same cooler....the white should look good in this case too!

If I run into issues with the sound in the next month or so, I'll try purchasing a PCI-E sound card.

On a different note, do you think there'll be much of a price drop on the IVY bridge when the new CPUs are released next month? Enough to wait for?

ReadyMan · Post by **ReadyMan** » Sun May 05, 2013 4:47 pm

Stink!
Went to purchase all the components today (mb/ram/cpu/dvd drive from Newegg, and the rest from Amazon) and the prices had changed on each of the components by a total of +$80!
The 840pro SSD is out of stock on Newegg now, and went up on Amazon by $25.

ReadyMan · Post by **ReadyMan** » Sun May 05, 2013 10:13 pm

Should have the parts by the end of the week! (went with the Phanteks cooler..and had to pay a premium for the 840 pro as everyone was out of them)
Thank you for the advice and guidance!

Any advice on putting this pc together (this will be my first build)?
In what order should I install the components?

Any help is appreciated (and needed)!

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Sun May 05, 2013 10:48 pm

Should be pretty straight forward:

- stay grounded
- don't force anything. If it doesn't drop in make sure you understand why
- double check if the board standoffs are all where they belong
- double check that the CPU heat sink will fit
- use decent thermal compound (AS5 or MX-4 would work)
- mind the cable routing, cables an fans don't mix well

I usually mount things in this order:

- install PSU. Hook it up but keep it switched off, this will ground the case.
- install CPU into MB, mount sink retention plate to MB (use case as a discharge point)
- install MB connector shield
- mount optical drive, connect to PSU
- mount MB, connect PSU plugs (both !)
- mount HDD/SSD, connect to PSU
- connect front panel connectors to MB, connect system fans to headers if applicable
- connect drives to MB (SATA cables)
- install RAM
- install heat sink, connect to MB fan header
- install video card, connect to PSU
- connect peripherals (KB, mouse, monitor, network)

Before powering it up, go grab a drink and double check everything visually.

ReadyMan · Post by **ReadyMan** » Sun May 05, 2013 11:28 pm

Terrific list!

I have some arctic silver 5 that I bought in June 2010, but I never opened it, or the bag it came in. Will that do? (does it get old?)

Do I need to swap the cpu with rubbing alchohol, as well as the base of the heatsink?
Not sure if the cpu comes with any compound on it, or if the heatsink does either...??

When you say hook up the PSU, you mean install it, and plug it in (so the ground post is grounded in the outlet) and not turn it on, right?

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon May 06, 2013 1:51 am

ReadyMan wrote:I have some arctic silver 5 that I bought in June 2010, but I never opened it, or the bag it came in. Will that do? (does it get old?)

Should work, unless its components have separated -- an indication would be if it's very runny, in that case don't use it. If you have to buy new compound, get MX-4. It's at least as good as AS5 but way easier to work with and it doesn't need 200h "break-in" time.

ReadyMan wrote:Do I need to swap the cpu with rubbing alchohol, as well as the base of the heatsink?

I usually don't swab the CPU if it's out of the box. Intel is pretty good about keeping the IHS clean

If the sink doesn't have thermal compound pre-applied, clean it ! (Looks like the Phanteks sink comes w/ it's own compound in a syringe, so yep, needs to be cleaned. It probably would be ok to use that compound as well.)

ReadyMan wrote:When you say hook up the PSU, you mean install it, and plug it in (so the ground post is grounded in the outlet) and not turn it on, right?

Correct. Be careful not to accidentally switch the PSU on while installing components on the MB, that would be a "bad thing"...

ReadyMan · Post by **ReadyMan** » Mon May 06, 2013 2:50 am

Grendel wrote:
ReadyMan wrote:I have some arctic silver 5 that I bought in June 2010, but I never opened it, or the bag it came in. Will that do? (does it get old?)
Should work, unless its components have separated -- an indication would be if it's very runny, in that case don't use it. If you have to buy new compound, get MX-4. It's at least as good as AS5 but way easier to work with and it doesn't need 200h "break-in" time.

I opened the bag, then the tube and the first bit of silver that came out was a bit runny.
The next bit not so much, and the 3rd bit was solid...no ooze or runny aspect to it.
What do you think?

--EDIT--
by "solid" I mean gooey, as it should be, with no separation.
Since the Phanteks cooler comes with some thermal compound, which do you think would be best? the AS (if you think it's still good) or the phanteks?
I cant get the MX-4. They want $29 to ship it to me (for a $7 tube)

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon May 06, 2013 12:21 pm

Very gooey is the right consistency for AS5, so either compound should work. I will leave it up to you to figure out which one performs better

ReadyMan · Post by **ReadyMan** » Mon May 06, 2013 10:47 pm

Any opinions on applying the thermal paste?
Pea sized blob in the middle and then mount the cooler method?
or spread it out manually to cover the whole surface method?

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon May 06, 2013 11:30 pm

I usually follow these instructions (mostly w/o "tinting"). Some more info and opinions.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Tue May 07, 2013 9:17 am

My main suggestion on thermal compound, is if the heat sink comes with an already applied patch of it (the arctic cool ones have a perfectly square patch applied at the factory and protected by a plastic cover), just use that. Most coolers ship with some form of thermal grease and even the cheap stuff most manufacturers include is perfectly acceptable outside of extreme overclocking situations.

If you are applying it yourself though, the thing to keep in mind is that compared to the actual metal of the cooler and the CPU, thermal compound is practically an insulator its conductivity is so much lower. But when compared to air instead, thermal compound is still hundreds or even thousands of times more conductive. So basically it just means "anything is better than air". So when applying it, you want the least amount possible that can still push all the air out of the gaps between the cooler and the CPU. The goal is always just to get rid of the air, so the less compound you use to reach that goal, the closer to optimal it is.

If you want perfect coverage, basically it is going to come down to trial and error for finding the best method for your particular CPU and heat sink (because no two are completely alike). But keep it simple, if one dot in the center doesn't work, then try the one or two lines instead. The more complicated the method of getting coverage, the more risk of creating air bubbles it has.

ReadyMan · Post by **ReadyMan** » Tue May 07, 2013 10:14 pm

The Phanteks cooler I purchased comes with it's own compound, which some say is 10 degrees cooler than AS5. While that may not be exactly true, it appears to be good stuff, so I'll give it a try. After reading the links from Grendel and considering Krom's thoughts (The phanteks cooler does not come with a compound patch, but is bare metal), and seeing that there is so many opinions on this, I decided I'll try the super thin line of compound from the Arctic Silver instructions page, just offset from the center of the CPU. I'll try to use as little as possible (not going to do the "tinting" method). I guess if I have super hot temps before I overclock, I'll know I need to do it over with another method

ReadyMan · Post by **ReadyMan** » Wed May 08, 2013 11:05 pm

Regarding the 256GB SSD, how much space will Windows 7 Pro take?
I plan on loading Office 2007, and firefox on the SSD also. Any idea how much space that will take up?
Anything else that I should consider loading on the SSD?
(I do also want to load Rise of Flight--biplane flight sim--on the SSD, which is 36GB)

Krom mentioned that I should keep 25% of the SSD free, so only use about 190GB?

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Thu May 09, 2013 7:54 am

I have Windows 7 Pro, Office 2007, Windows XP Mode (10 GB), Firefox, Chrome, the 8 GB hibernation file, the 8 GB page file, system restore is turned on for the volume, 20-30 smallish applications installed, and it is using 63.1 GB of space on my SSD. This is basically an unrestricted install of Windows 7 Pro, I have made no attempts to reduce disk usage other than keeping games and media off the drive.

I would benchmark the load times of your game both on and off the SSD, reboot between tests to flush any memory caching and see how much of a difference it actually makes before permanently committing it to the SSD. But otherwise you should have plenty of space to fit 30-50 GB worth of games on the drive if needed.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Thu May 09, 2013 12:05 pm

I have eight machines running off 120/128GB SSDs, all but one running W7 Pro or Ultimate. None has less than 40GB available (that one I use as a small file server !), average free space is > 60GB on the other machines. I wouldn't expect that you run into space problems w/ the 250GB disk

As for giving the SSD some leeway for sector management -- if you got a Samsung SSD, let the OS have the whole disk. Once everything is up & running, install the Samsung management tool (-> Support -> Downloads -> Magician Software v4) and set up "Over Provisioning". This will reserve and let the disk know about some free space for it to use for management (~10%). More isn't necessary (see also Understanding SSD over-provisioning).

ReadyMan · Post by **ReadyMan** » Fri May 10, 2013 11:48 pm

Update:
Got all my components, except for my 2 120mm fans (for the top of the case). I read a thread somewhere that said to install these first as it's tougher if you have everything else installed, so it looks like next weekend for the build.

I'm a bit leery of installing the PSU and plugging it in, so I'm going to just work on my linoleum floor and wood table to avoid static (hilariously, I ordered a wrist static guard but it's on a slow mule to Hawaii also).

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat May 11, 2013 7:42 am

Most PSUs have a hard switch in the back, switch it off and then plug it in while you work with it. It disconnects the hot, but leaves the ground and neutral live so you get the grounding benefits but no risk of accidentally turning it on.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Sat May 11, 2013 3:18 pm

Yea, that's what I meant in an earlier post. If the PSU does not have a hard switch, DO NOT connect it to mains while working on the machine !

ReadyMan · Post by **ReadyMan** » Sun May 12, 2013 4:32 pm

My case has 2 HD cages which each hold 3 HDs. I only have the 2 HDs, is there any real advantage to removing the middle cage (airflow) while installing the 2 HDs on the bottom cage?
My 670 GTX fits just fine with all the cages installed.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sun May 12, 2013 5:36 pm

Yes, removing excess HDD cages often does improve airflow.

ReadyMan · Post by **ReadyMan** » Tue May 14, 2013 2:07 am

Got all the missing components today and started putting the case together --optical drive, HD/SSD/top fans--(will try to put the cpu/cooler/mb in tomorrow after work).
I have a couple of fan connection questions:

The Corsair 500R case has 4 chassis fans: 2 front fans and a 200mm side fan, all of which connect to the chassis fan controller.
The 4th fan is a back exhaust fan that should connect to the mb, right?(it has 3 pins)

The two top mounted fans (I got 2 120mm corsair SP120 fans) are 3 pin. Where do I connect them? The MB also?

The cooler has 2 fans, which should connect to the CPU fan and CPU fan opt (I think these are 3 pin, but the mb spot for these is 4 pin...is this a problem?).

The MB has 3 4-pin CHA fan connector locations. (the back exhaust fan and two top fans are all 3 pin, and should connect to the 3 mb connections, right?)

I saw a fan splitter on newegg...dunno if that's needed.
(I have 8 fans, not including the PSU fan...heh!)

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Tue May 14, 2013 4:17 am

4 pin fan headers should still work with 3 pin fans, so plug the CPU fans into those otherwise BIOS will probably complain that there is no CPU fan.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Tue May 14, 2013 4:32 pm

Yes, any 3 pin fan plugged into a 4 pin header will work, but probably only at full speed. The manual doesn't say if the V Gene will detect 3 pin fans and switch to voltage regulation (I'm using PWM 4 pin fans on all my headers...), you will have to test it. The only fan that should be connected to the MB is a CPU fan (for monitoring purposes), all other fans can be powered by what ever means available (headers on the MB, direct connection to the PSU.) I would not use Y-splitters since there is an upper power limit on what a header can deliver.

ReadyMan · Post by **ReadyMan** » Tue May 14, 2013 10:14 pm

The RAM goes in slots A2 and B2 (the red ones), right?

Seems counter intuitive...should be A1 and B1 for 2 dimms. But the MB manual says use A1 if you only have one module....

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Tue May 14, 2013 10:38 pm

That's what I used, the red slots. Works

Edit: My manual says to use A2 for a single module (pg. 2-5) ?

ReadyMan · Post by **ReadyMan** » Tue May 14, 2013 11:07 pm

yes, you're right. Sorry.
Putting in the mb now.

The case has all but two mb standoffs already installed, but those two dont twist down by hand far enough. Have to use pliers to get them down.
So much for tool less

that should be ok, right?

ReadyMan · Post by **ReadyMan** » Wed May 15, 2013 3:46 am

Finished building the pc, but it took me a little over 5 hours, so I dont have time to boot it up and load windows 7. The cooler took me a bit to figure out.
(BTW, I used the line method with the thermal paste, without tinting it--tho I think I got a tad more than needed as the end of the line had a little blob.)
I only installed the SSD, and have the HDD sitting out until I load windows. Before I boot it up tomorrow, here's a couple of questions more:

I'm a bit concerned about the closeness of the video card to the cpu cooler. The GPU has a back plate so it shouldnt be an issue...but what do you think?

The SSD has a daisy chain power connector. Is it ok to hook the HDD up to this, or should I run another power connector to the PSU?

I hooked the SSD and the HDD up to sata 6gbs cables and into the 6gbs slots on the mb.
Then I hooked up the optical drive to the 3gb slot on the mb by means of another 6gbs sata connector. That should work ok, right?

I also removed the middle HD cage, leaving the bottom cage for the HD and SSD. If I could mount the HD and SSD in the 5.25 bays, I could get rid of the bottom cage as well, but I dont see how to mount them there...

Anything else to keep in mind before booting?

Here's a couple of pics:
Everything (but HD) installed:

Before heatsink/GPU installation:

Before GPU installation:

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Wed May 15, 2013 10:53 am

Looking good so far !

ReadyMan wrote:Finished building the pc, but it took me a little over 5 hours, so I dont have time to boot it up and load
windows 7.

I usually install W7 off a USB stick, takes only about 15min

Patching the system up takes hours tho...

ReadyMan wrote:I'm a bit concerned about the closeness of the video card to the cpu cooler. The GPU has a back plate so it shouldnt be an issue...but what do you think?

It's fine as long they are not touching each other.

ReadyMan wrote:The SSD has a daisy chain power connector. Is it ok to hook the HDD up to this, or should I run another power connector to the PSU?

Both on the same chain is fine, I got all my three drives on one (with the SSD on the furthest one out.)

ReadyMan wrote:I hooked the SSD and the HDD up to sata 6gbs cables and into the 6gbs slots on the mb.
Then I hooked up the optical drive to the 3gb slot on the mb by means of another 6gbs sata connector. That should work ok, right?

Correct. 6GBs spec'ed cable will work just fine w/ 3GBs or even 1.5GBs ports/devices.

ReadyMan wrote:I also removed the middle HD cage, leaving the bottom cage for the HD and SSD. If I could mount the HD and SSD in the 5.25 bays, I could get rid of the bottom cage as well, but I dont see how to mount them there...

You would need a 2.5" to 3.5" adapter for the SSD and one or two 3.5" to 5.25" adapters for the HDD (and the SSD if your cases doesn't support a floppy drive. If it does, use it to mount the SSD in a 3.5" adapter.)

ReadyMan wrote:Anything else to keep in mind before booting?

Double check everything twice again before powering it up. Good luck !

ReadyMan · Post by **ReadyMan** » Wed May 15, 2013 12:11 pm

Grendel wrote:Looking good so far !

ReadyMan wrote:Finished building the pc, but it took me a little over 5 hours, so I dont have time to boot it up and load
windows 7.
I usually install W7 off a USB stick, takes only about 15min Patching the system up takes hours tho...

ReadyMan wrote:I'm a bit concerned about the closeness of the video card to the cpu cooler. The GPU has a back plate so it shouldnt be an issue...but what do you think?
It's fine as long they are not touching each other.

The little wire bracket that holds the fan onto the CPU cooler is just touching the backplate of the GPU on one side (the furthest side, and the closest side is about 1/16th above the backplate).
Here's a pic:

So the cooler isnt touching the GPU, but the clip holding the cooler fan is (just barely).
I feel like it's not worth the risk. I can take the fan out and tweak the clip with some pliers so that it doesnt touch. Or am I just being OCD on this?

Thanks for the walk thru with all of this!

I'll have to do all this at the end of the day.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Wed May 15, 2013 12:25 pm

if you are worried, just move the video card down to the other PCI-E slot.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Wed May 15, 2013 12:32 pm

If the clip is only touching the plastic back cover of the card and doesn't exert excessive pressure (ie. noticeably pushing the card down) you should be fine. Metal-to-metal contact is the one to avert at all cost (to prevent electrical shorts.)

Side note: before starting to install an OS, mind the boot order in the BIOS. The very first boot should be from the installation media (ie. optical drive when installing via optical disk.) During the 1st reboot of the installation you have to go into the BIOS again and change the boot order to the disk you are installing to !

Not sure if you can just populate the 2nd PCIE slot (manual say use the 1st one, pg. 2-17.) If you do, be aware that it is an 8-lane slot (vs. the 16 lanes of the 1st PCIe slot.)

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Wed May 15, 2013 12:54 pm

Re: Boot drive order. There should be separate priorities for hard drives and the "master" priority, which should be set to "Hard Drive" "Optical/CDROM" "USB" (and then everything else, like network or floppy if such options are present). You should not need to set it to optical to install windows, since the SSD is empty BIOS should automatically fall over to the optical drive, but if it doesn't then you will have to set the optical first, just change it back to hard drive first once you are done. I've installed Windows 7 off of a USB drive before, and while it is fast there is some occasionally odd behavior about how it formats and partitions the drive which requires some extra attention to detail (because the USB drive is bootable and writable), so for the novice I highly recommend sticking to the DVD.

And seconding if the clip from the heat sink is touching metal on the GPU, just move the GPU down a slot.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Wed May 15, 2013 2:54 pm

you can select which media to boot with, regardless of the bios order. Its a standard feature for nearly all retail motherboard know.

Make sure you've enabled U/EFI support before installing windows.