well, there's a spin I hadn't considered....

[callmeslick]

is fertility what the economy needs, long-term?
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder ... that-right

[Spidey]

Funny thing, I was listening to this guy on the News Hour the other night talk about how the immigrants won’t cost the government all this money the conservatives say they will, in social benefits, because they will be “movin on up” after we make them legal.

All I can do is laugh, because I was always under the impression we need these people to do the jobs other people won’t do…well if they “move on up”…I guess we will need another batch of 10 million or so, to the jobs this batch was supposed to do.

My point here is…I doubt anybody even has a clue as to the benefits or problems caused by immigration in modern America, and the poor people have just become some pawns in a political game.

[callmeslick]

seems a fair assessment, Spidey. I mean, if you look at the history of the US, that continuing trajectory has been pretty constant. I know, for example, how it worked in Virginia: First, they brought in indentured Englishmen to work the tobacco fields, then African slaves. When slavery was outlawed, migrant labor eventually became dominated by Hispanics. As another example, look at the development of the industrial north. Factories started out hiring French Canadians, then a parade of ethnic groups like Poles, Irish, Italians, etc. Immigration has always filled the lower rungs of the economic ladder, and eventually led to both economic mobility and assimilation into the culture. Now, the issues to be considered are: 1) when is the need for labor saturated with available bodies, 2) what cost does society pay to deal with oversupply of low-end labor and 3)do we really have a society and economy geared toward maintaining a middle class to move into and assimilate?

[Ford Prefect]

Does anyone here see a difference between immigration and illegal immigration? Seems to me that the problem is not the number of people that are legally documented to enter a country and eventually become citizens as well as hopefully rise high enough in the income chain to pay into the social network but rather is the undocumented people that because of their precarious position in law are exploited as cheap labor by unscrupulous employers. Kept always in the lower levels of employment and seldom if ever contributing to the social system. It's my opinion (as a Canadian I realize it's not worth a lot ) that the US has less a problem with immigration than it does with unregulated businesses that can hire off-the-book labor, pay no employment taxes, report no income and otherwise not contribute to the system that supports them. You are addicted to cheap labor to support your lifestyle in the same way you are addicted to cheap goods that create an unsupportable imbalance in your international trade deficit and balance of payments. Fear of regulation and government in general have created such a loose regulatory environment that your nation is easy pickings for those that wish to exploit the system without contributing. I don't see that changing any time soon either so don't take this as advice (I recognize the fact that this is not a popular viewpoint in the US) just an observation.

[Will Robinson]

Does anyone here see a difference between immigration and illegal immigration? Seems to me that the problem is not the number of people that are legally documented to enter a country and eventually become citizens as well as hopefully rise high enough in the income chain to pay into the social network but rather is the undocumented people that because of their precarious position in law are exploited as cheap labor by unscrupulous employers. Kept always in the lower levels of employment and seldom if ever contributing to the social system. It's my opinion (as a Canadian I realize it's not worth a lot ) that the US has less a problem with immigration than it does with unregulated businesses that can hire off-the-book labor, pay no employment taxes, report no income and otherwise not contribute to the system that supports them. You are addicted to cheap labor to support your lifestyle in the same way you are addicted to cheap goods that create an unsupportable imbalance in your international trade deficit and balance of payments. Fear of regulation and government in general have created such a loose regulatory environment that your nation is easy pickings for those that wish to exploit the system without contributing. I don't see that changing any time soon either so don't take this as advice (I recognize the fact that this is not a popular viewpoint in the US) just an observation.

I think you have spelled it out pretty clearly and many in our current congress are trying real hard to harvest 11 million new citizens/voters out of the current crop of illegals that are here without disturbing the system that will supply and exploit the illegal replacements for those who graduate to citizenship/registered voter. America is spiraling out of control in many ways.

The premise of your larger point suggests a lack of regulation is at fault but that presumes common sense regulation is a possibility from the group of pimps running our legislature. It is their kind of 'regulation' that has created the home for the underclass and perpetuates it. They will gladly agree with you out of one side of their mouth as a rhetorical device while at the same time whisper the orders to maintain the status quo to please their puppet masters from of the other side!

[CDN_Merlin]

Spidey, our immigration in Canada has caused our social system to spend tons of money on deadbeat people. They come here and just sponge.

[Spidey]

That’s terrible…you should build a fence!

Heh, just kidding, in fact I really despise the notion of building fences along our southern border.

...................................

And yea, Ford has it right on the cheap consumer goods point…but the problem is true immigration reform would mean higher prices at the supermarket, and the politicians are not very likely to pass any real reform if it means higher prices to a spoiled consumer.

[ThugsRook]

what you need to realize is that every US citizen is a $750,000 asset. we are used as collateral. of course they want more of us.

the fed has outlived its usefulness.

[callmeslick]

just for my cheap amusement, Thugs......what would that 'usefulness' be, or have been?