Bradley Manning...aid to the enemy or whistle blower?

[Spidey]

Depends on who you ask.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01790.html

http://nationalreview.com/article/34604 ... tion-stats

[Will Robinson]

Depends on who you ask.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01790.html

http://nationalreview.com/article/34604 ... tion-stats

Lol!
Slick doesn't care that Obama has caused the real numbers to go down! He was talking about the 'special' numbers that are cooked to make it look like Obama is tough on illegals!

Why do you want to be so particular Spidey? Trying to get all acurate and such?!?
Just accept slicks word on it because he has the special knowledge that us average guys can't understand.

[callmeslick]

[Spidey]

Yea, you have to be very careful, the government is always changing the way they “calculate” things.

[vision]

Seems to be some reading comprehension problems here.

Claim: "Deportation of illegal immigrants increases under Obama administration"
Source: Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

Claim: "The number of deportations appears to have declined significantly during the president’s term in office."
Source: a set of largely unpublished official statistics on immigration-enforcement.

One of these sources isn't a source. Can you tell which one? I'm not saying the second article isn't true. After all, those people have statements on record. But until the numbers can be verified it just looks like office politics.

Anecdotally, I did a lot of work for the Border Patrol over the last 2 years and I never got the impression that deportations were down. Maybe this is because, as the second article states, the emphasis was on the border. But isn't that were we need to spend more money anyway? (Don't answer that, I really don't give a ★■◆●).

[Will Robinson]

Seems to be some reading comprehension problems here.

Claim: "Deportation of illegal immigrants increases under Obama administration"
Source: Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

Claim: "The number of deportations appears to have declined significantly during the president’s term in office."
Source: a set of largely unpublished official statistics on immigration-enforcement.

One of these sources isn't a source. Can you tell which one? I'm not saying the second article isn't true. After all, those people have statements on record. But until the numbers can be verified it just looks like office politics.

Anecdotally, I did a lot of work for the Border Patrol over the last 2 years and I never got the impression that deportations were down. Maybe this is because, as the second article states, the emphasis was on the border. But isn't that were we need to spend more money anyway? (Don't answer that, I really don't give a ****).

To determine if the totals are moving one needs to compare previous totals with new totals.
If, as the reports indicate, the totals show they are moving down if not for the administrations change to now include 'turn arounds' caught at the border as deportations where they previously were not inculded in the data to give the impression totals are moving up....then what you have is political numbers games so Obama and slick type people can falsely claim he is deporting more illegals while the truth is quite the opposite!

[callmeslick]

lessee Will, the official numbers back me. The contrarian numbers are unpublished, and unverifiable, and you just got anecdotal evidence that deportations don't seem to have dropped by someone working in the border region. And, yet, you still wish to insinuate that it's the admin and 'slick-type' people playing fast and loose with the facts? Hmmmmmm.

[Will Robinson]

lessee Will, the official numbers back me. The contrarian numbers are unpublished, and unverifiable, and you just got anecdotal evidence that deportations don't seem to have dropped by someone working in the border region. And, yet, you still wish to insinuate that it's the admin and 'slick-type' people playing fast and loose with the facts? Hmmmmmm.

Nice try, holding the word 'official' up like a badge of credibility! But in this case both sides of the law suit are "officials" in every respect.

One side being the Obama administration which is literally notorious for lying about the numbers for just about everything they do!,
So the smart bet is to scoff at your 'official' report and at your and Obamas assertions that the real numbers support his claims to have increased deportations!

Scoff, scoff, scoff!

[Spidey]

Considering the official political position this admin. takes on immigration, it would seem a little suspect that deportations would actually be up…don’t they even believe in their own positions.

Oh right….suddenly they're all law and order like…right...sure, just like they're all gung-ho on enforcing the Defense of the family act.

Sure

...........................

Perhaps Mr. Transparency…errr…vision, could call the White House and very nicely ask them if they have changed the metrics for counting deportations.

I also find it amusing how people find anecdotal evidence to be credible, when it supports their own beliefs, but not...when it doesn't

[vision]

Perhaps Mr. Transparency…errr…vision, could call the White House and very nicely ask them if they have changed the metrics for counting deportations.

It would be nice if there were an independent group that could verify the claims of Jessica Vaughan and Chris Crane. But if they have secret numbers no one else can see, that doesn't do anyone any good. It's why we need more transparency and why I've become increasingly agitated with the current administration. We should have access to everything. After all, we are the boss, we employ the government. I want to know what our employees are doing.

Still, the whole thing just smells like politics as usual. Two competing agencies dividing up responsibilities and blaming the other for their own incompetence. That's the word right there. If the government is anything it is incompetent -- too collectively stupid to be evil. Even in the case of Snowden. Where is all that awesome intelligence now? He's playing a shell game while the world laughs at our government's idiocy, haha.

[Will Robinson]

Perhaps Mr. Transparency…errr…vision, could call the White House and very nicely ask them if they have changed the metrics for counting deportations.

It would be nice if there were an independent group that could verify the claims of Jessica Vaughan and Chris Crane. But if they have secret numbers no one else can see, that doesn't do anyone any good. It's why we need more transparency and why I've become increasingly agitated with the current administration. We should have access to everything. After all, we are the boss, we employ the government. I want to know what our employees are doing.

Still, the whole thing just smells like politics as usual. Two competing agencies dividing up responsibilities and blaming the other for their own incompetence. That's the word right there. If the government is anything it is incompetent -- too collectively stupid to be evil. Even in the case of Snowden. Where is all that awesome intelligence now? He's playing a shell game while the world laughs at our government's idiocy, haha.

Far too many of our "employees" are not the least bit interested in respecting our authority. They follow the lead of the President, a man we also hired to direct their activities and protect our collective interest.
It is as if the President is leading a takeover of the 'company' and he is quite comfortable letting the employees give us the finger when we ask them to explain what they have been doing with our company!

That independent group you are wishing for used to be the press/media but they have abandoned their independence in exchange for a job as lackey for one corrupt faction or the other.

[Tunnelcat]

That's because they all work for the corporate lackey, not the people. They are all self-serving, or self-preserving if you prefer, and keeping perpetual employment for themselves, because they know where the money comes from.

[vision]

That independent group you are wishing for used to be the press/media but they have abandoned their independence in exchange for a job as lackey for one corrupt faction or the other.

That's because they all work for the corporate lackey, not the people. They are all self-serving, or self-preserving if you prefer, and keeping perpetual employment for themselves, because they know where the money comes from.

Both are correct and why it's more important than ever to keep the Internet free and open -- and spend whatever resources we have on creating a truly public infrastructure. There are lots of canges I would like to see in our education system, but one that would really help change the world is teaching kids, young kids, how to build ad hoc networks. Preferably a class not too close to recess so they pay attention.

[Tunnelcat]

Gawd, even a former second ranking officer in the U.S. military, James Cartwright, is being now accused of leaking national security secrets, specifically the targeting of the Iranian Nuclear facilities by the Stuxnet virus. Now we know who created that little gem of a nasty program, the U.S. and the Israelis.

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news ... s-say?lite

[Spidey]

Transparency is good….for glass.

And Aluminum...

[Tunnelcat]

Makes one wonder..............why all these career government officials, even high up military people, deciding to become traitors and leak national secrets.

[vision]

Makes one wonder..............why all these career government officials, even high up military people, deciding to become traitors and leak national secrets.

Stupid conscience getting in the way of normal, ignorant life. How inconvenient.

[Tunnelcat]

So why didn't more of these people with a conscience come out during Bushies reign? It seems the volume of leakage is far more prevalent under Obama. Either Obama's more crooked than Bush and is using leaks for political gain, which I'm not discounting by the way, OR there are more people in the government that have a vendetta against Obama because they hate him, OR both.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?ti ... tion_leaks

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/20/us/po ... d=all&_r=0

[Spidey]

Maybe it’s because Obama talked a big game about transparency…then did little.

[roid]

If Whistlebowers' like Manning and Snowden are aiding "the enemy", then we're redefining "America" to mean solely the corrupt status quo of America's current intelligence community, and thus redefining "Enemy" to mean "everyone else".
Yep, that means you.
You are the enemy.
American, non-american, who gives a ★■◆●, if you can do anything at all to threaten the power of the UNELECTED intelligence community - then you are "THE ENEMY".

The intel community says: Democracy can go ★■◆● itself, we ain't elected, infact elections would be a major threat to our power! Democracy and anyone who supports it is the enemy. The only allies we have is those who support us unthinkingly: nationalists, fascists, conservatives (those who hate change and ALWAYS vote to preserve the cultural status quo - ie: us), they are our only real friends. We should do all we can to support them.

and they do.
oh yes yes yes they do.

It'd be nice if something told me that people are even capable of recognizing & thus subsequently questioning the legitamacy of the military industry complex's strangehold on USA politics and money flow. Can i get some Ayes to restore my faith in humanity?

[woodchip]

You know it was said of J.Edgar Hoover that he kept a file on every politician from the President on down and was the reason why he never got replaced.