Talon

[sdfgeoff]

I'm surprised no-ones noticed Talon yet.
The indoor combat looks exactly like descent to me....
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[Alter-Fox]

We have but it's all been on Planetdescent.

[ReadyMan]

I never heard of this (dont go to PD except on links....).
Thanks for the headsup.
Looks very similar to descent....explosions are a bit much in such tight quarters tho.

[ReadyMan]

The level in the video looks like Minerva....


Looks fun. I'd like to try the beta.

[vision]

It's like a D3 clone. It looks like they even have the stupid napalm cannon.

Edit: Looks like they fixed the flight mechanics so there is no need to tri-chord. That's pretty cool.

[Avder]

It's like a D3 clone. It looks like they even have the stupid napalm cannon.

Edit: Looks like they fixed the flight mechanics so there is no need to tri-chord. That's pretty cool.

No need to trichord? what?

[Foil]

The author basically is flattening the flight-velocity mechanics, so that there is no chording boost and no afterburner.

I've suggested that he allow an option to include "classic" chording and afterburner, but no response yet.

[Alter-Fox]

And then in the thread there were several good arguments for it, and some just-as-good arguments against it. And I was actually agreeing with Foil about making it an option. It was all *posh british voice* quite remarkable.

[Avder]

So your velocity gets reduced in each direction such that your total speed never exceeds 1x.

Boring.

[Alter-Fox]

I've said this before, but I'm kind of amazed that a couple years ago this community was complaining all about how "oh, 6DoF is dead, we'll never have another flying shooter game..." and now that we actually have some new ones, you complain "oh, trichording doesn't work, this might be a 6DoF game but I'm not even going to think about trying it."

What amazes me is that your complaining about the lack of trichording in the games that have come out and are coming out is at least three times worse than your complaining, a few years ago, about not having any new 6DoF games period. And you know, that's the main problem I have with trichording. (You notice I didn't get so vehemently anti-trichord until after Miner Wars and Retrovirus were on the way.) No offense, but when it comes to trichording you guys act like spoiled teenagers. Grow up.

And I know I'll get flamed hard for this...

[Sirius]

I'm more worried about the "D3 clone" thing really. As long as it's not "unbind your sliding keys because you can't do it" lack of trichording it's still 6DOF...

[Foil]

...you complain "oh, trichording doesn't work, this might be a 6DoF game but I'm not even going to think about trying it."

The problem is a good one - we have a wealth of 6DoF games now, from the indie multiplayer projects like Geocore and Talon to studio games like Shattered Horizon and Retrovirus. Enough, in fact, that we can afford to be choosy about which features we like, and which ones we don't.

Perhaps you have the time and money to test and purchase every new 6DoF game out there? Good for you, but that's not the case for everyone.

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P.S. Fox, if you don't want flames, don't throw around firestarters like, "you guys act like spoiled teenagers".

[Alter-Fox]

You know I love being a part of this community and I think all you guys are great (unless I'm in E&C lol. I don't go there anymore). But if learning to trichord creates that kind of mindset, you can see why I didn't exactly want to learn it.
And if there are so many games to choose from, then when you see one that didn't include chording, why are you even complaining instead of moving on and going to another one? It sounds to me like so many of you make it the sole criteria over whether or not you buy a game. You start complaining because you want the game, you think it looks fun and great, but you only want it if it has chording. They make a game that looks exactly like what you want except for one thing! Which is invariably chording.
If you think the game looks great and you have the time and money to spend on it -- if you want it -- you can buy it anyway. Or don't buy it anyway. But you can't expect a developer to make a game exactly the way you want it. So many of you seem to think that you can. Which is a huge contrast to any other game community I've seen.

[Foil]

Fox, you're the one complaining here. What is is about others' opinions here that ruffles your feathers?

I made a simple statement about the lack of a feature, suggested adding it as an option, and now you're making assertions about an entire community's attitude. Did I, or someone else, do something to you? (If so, take it to PM.)

[Pumo]

Well, TBH I understand Alter-Fox pretty much, and I agree with much of what he says (although I must admit that on this ocassion he sounded a bit more mad and harsh than usual ).

In fact, it seems Alter-Fox, Vision, Scottris (the developer of Talon), IHateHackers (from PlanetDescent) and I are of the 'tri-chording is not THAT important' team.

As I said on PD, I do like to use some bi and tri-chording from time to time (mainly to escape homers), but I don't consider it to be such an integral part of what made Descent what it is, as for me the overall concept (colourful mines in space, sci-fi elements, robots, lasers), level design and atmosphere are the most important parts of Decent.

Yeap, I'm a Single-player loner, I don't enjoy Multiplayer that much and I'm not very competitive, so that may be a factor that makes me feel Tri-Chord is not such a big deal, but even with that, I'm tempted to play Talon even if it's an online arena game, just because of the atmosphere and general Descent-like feel, at least in the meantime (as Scottris already said that Single-Player expansions are possible to make ).

But the most important part of what Alter-Fox said and where I agree the most, is this one:

... community was complaining all about how "oh, 6DoF is dead, we'll never have another flying shooter game..." and now that we actually have some new ones, you complain "oh, trichording doesn't work, this might be a 6DoF game but I'm not even going to think about trying it."...

'nuff said.

[Duper]

Personally, If it's not specifically "descent", then trichording shouldn't matter. That's purely a Descent thing. Talon looks like it's borrowing from both Descent and Freespace a bit. There's a lot more in development to worry about than something silly like trichording.

It's looking great !

[Foil]

I have zero problem with folks who don't see certain flight mechanics as an important feature. That's fine. "To each, his own."

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I do, however, take issue with someone attacking a group or individuals (e.g. calling them "spoiled teenagers", as Fox did above) simply because they disagree.

We have a huge variety of players here, from all walks of life, all ages, and with all flavors of things they love about Descent/6DoF. There is no reason whatsoever to denounce any of them for their stating their particular likes/dislikes.

[Alter-Fox]

I'm not bashing their love of trichording. I couldn't have less of a problem with that.
I'm bashing the way some of them go about expressing it, as though they think they're entitled to some kind of "perfect" game. I've seen that attitude (though not quite in this way) so many times through different communities and I can't stand it. Even if it's about something I agreed with (which actually happened a few months ago in the Trackmania 2 community...).

The shock makes people listen. To be honest, I don't think everybody here acts like spoiled teenagers, even when it comes to chording. But for some people, I think it's time to listen.

Unless somebody has something else to tell me I think the conversation about my *shock* post is done.

[vision]

In fact, it seems Alter-Fox, Vision, Scottris (the developer of Talon), IHateHackers (from PlanetDescent) and I are of the 'tri-chording is not THAT important' team.

That's right, I do feel that way. I can Tri-Chord, but it always seemed weird and unnatural to me. I would rather the physics be like they are implemented in Talon. Of course, Chording is an actual skill like anything else, so with this gone so goes one of the dynamics that separates talented players from "no so much." I bet Talon is still super fun though. I am eager to see it finished.

[Jeff250]

The chording feature/bug in games goes back at least as far as Wolfenstein 3d, which had bichording, but where it was more difficult to rationalize given the mechanics of the human body. I think they fixed it in Doom.

[ReadyMan]

Yep, no tri-chording in Talon is not a problem.
If it has it, great.
If it doesnt, great.
The game will stand on it's own merits.

Afterburner is a much more important aspect IMO.

[Krom]

The people complaining about lack of trichording are also the types who complain about lack of difficulty in newer games or how everything has been dumbed down to the instant gratification for newbies level. Instant gratification also implies instant boredom.

Overcoming a truly challenging game like Descent is far more rewarding in the long run than having some easy game hand you everything and 50 achievements on a silver platter. The the more depth of skill a game allows me to develop, the longer I am likely to play it for. It is no coincidence that Descent players who have mastered trichording usually defeat players who haven't. Trichording added a lot of depth and skill to Descent that wouldn't have been there otherwise, which is why I always prefer having trichording to not in a 6dof game. It isn't like you have to know trichording to play Descent, but you have to know it to truly master Descent. I chew through most modern AAA games in a couple days or to a week most of the time, a particularly entertaining one might keep me occupied on my days off for a month or two before I put it away for good, but I played Descent regularly for nearly a decade.

The difference between a forgettable and unforgettable game is in what gets better as you play it. Lets take a game I grabbed on sale a couple weekends back "Tomb Raider", a modern flagship "AAA" game. It wasn't a bad game, but it wasn't memorable either. I was able to beat the game to 100% completion by myself with no extra help in one weekend. So what got better by the end of the game? I sure didn't, on a replay which I got bored of halfway through I still played exactly the same (although I did find all the collectables a bit faster and unlocked the skills even sooner), on the other hand the character I was controlling sure did get a lot more powerful. After a point I didn't even have to fight many of the enemies, I only had to wait for them to attempt to attack, tap dodge, then match a QTE button prompt that is always the same (and always done in bullet time slow motion just to make it that much easier) and the character would instantly dispose of the enemy all by itself. Easy, Boring, Forgotten. It was a lot less like playing a game and a lot more like watching a movie.

Now Descent on the other hand, after nearly a decade of playing it, I was still flying exactly the same ship with exactly the same limits and abilities as when I started, but I myself was immensely more powerful. I personally grew as a player more than in any other game I had played before, or have played since and that is what made Descent unforgettable.

[vision]

I played Descent every day for years before I started tri-chording. Well, I bi-chorded at first because that's just circle-strafing and you kinda fall into that habit from regular playing anyway. Tri-chording only makes a difference in the upper echelon of multi-player battles, in my opinion. Descent is a fantastic, interesting, and challenging game because of many factors -- flight vector handling being a small, small part of it.

[Avder]

The chording feature/bug in games goes back at least as far as Wolfenstein 3d, which had bichording, but where it was more difficult to rationalize given the mechanics of the human body. I think they fixed it in Doom.

Nope doom had it. They call it straferunning. In fact the mechanics of doom straferunning are more complicated than the mechanics of descent trichording if you want maximum performance. There are two variants of straferunning: SR 40 and SR 50. SR 40 is the kind you get when you just hold run, forward, and strafe left or right. With it you get up to about 1.28 times the normal walking speed. SR 50 on the other hand means you are holding run, strafe on, forward, strafe left or right, and the same turn key as strafe key. With that variant you get the same 1.41 speed boost we get from bichording. Also, you can not turn using SR50.

[sigma]

Only I do not understand what platform game developed. But if for the PC too, I hope that the range of management settings, speed and HUD, Talon will more like a D2XXL than D3.

[Foil]

Afterburner is a much more important aspect IMO.

Agreed. The removal of the variable afterburner is just... baffling.

[Pumo]

@foil
Well, it's both baffling and not baffling, depending on your playing preferences.
It is baffling if you are a D2/D3 player, but not baffling at all if you are a D1 player, as D1 never had an afterburner to begin with, and even without it, D1 is a lot of fun on both Single-player and Multiplayer.
In fact, there is a part of the community that prefer D1 over D2/D3, as well as there is a part that prefer D2, or even D3 over all, because precisely, it is the faster of all 3.

Much like the tri-chording stuff, it's just a matter of each player's playing style and taste.

I think that Talon will have its own merit at it's planned to be (no tri-chord, no variable afterburner), as well as Retrovirus had its own merit on its own, even if (as an example) it has a MUCH slower pace than Descent's gameplay.

BTW, I noticed that Talon is something like a mix of D1 (simplicity, few weapons, no afterburner) and D3 (fast paced, tech oriented level design, various ships).

[snoopy]

Krom pretty well captured it for me.

I want a game that challenges me to become more skilled over a long period of play.

I'm somewhat "meh" about games these days... I really don't have that much time for them, so I'm not really all that invested in seeing the next descent. Maybe that'll change in 40 years when I retire.

[scottris]

Hello DBB! It's nice to see Talon getting some attention. Talon is not Descent, it is not intended to be D4, but it is strongly inspired by Descent, and I do believe Descent fans will find much to like about it, but it also blends elements from other flight combat games. I like to think it has reasonable depth and will offer gamers a fair challenge, but you'll have to judge that for yourselves.

[scottris]

It's like a D3 clone. It looks like they even have the stupid napalm cannon.

Napalm cannon? No. That gun sucked. But there is a Napalm Rocket analog. Is it like a D3 clone? I'll let you decide. That was never my intent, but Descent pretty well shaped my idea of what a flight combat game should be, so, yeah, there is a lot of carry-over by virtue of that.