E&C Dragging Arse...

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Sat May 29, 2004 5:07 am

Is it just me....or has the E&C lost something lately? Is it just that everyone else is busy, or I'm too busy or what?

Bash is posting, Lothar, Will, Birds, Ferno, Testi occasionally, Z, Flabby, myself....

I don't know, it just seems like when I check the board after work now there are much less replies to posts then there had been in months prior. The fact that really there has only been three subject matters being discussed for most of the year probably has contributed to this IMO.

Politics.
Iraq
The War on Terror.

I don't see the horse getting any reprieve from the beatings anytime soon, but I do think that maybe these issues are getting a little long in the face. The unfortunate part is that it seems there isn't anything else really worth talking about at the moment, which is a sad state of affairs.

What's everybody elses take on the E&C as of late?

Tricord · Post by **Tricord** » Sat May 29, 2004 5:25 am

Having participated in a few discussions in this forum a long time ago, I noticed some people thinking less of me because I'm an outlander, and have very different political views, and had mostly if not only (constructive) criticism on the US government. Also, I realise most of you guys don't give a ★■◆● about "how we do things in Belgium" (and that goes for almost any foreign country) that all I had to contribute to this forum would be ignored or frowned upon.

So all I do is pop in occasionally when the other forums have no interesting reads.

Flabby Chick · Post by **Flabby Chick** » Sat May 29, 2004 7:20 am

Tri!! You are a being a bit sensitive sunshine arn't you. Your not the only one who's not got favourable things to say about the US, and that includes some very patriotic Americans.

If your intimidated by Wills wit or Bash's left hook that's a different matter entirely, but i'm sure if you were having a beer with them discussing the same thing you'd not give in so easily. It's a shame, 'cause your a clever bloke and a differing opinion makes for a good discussion and that's what we are in this forum for no?? We also have a new, keen, virginal, innocent milky toothed Moderator who will try to keep the big bad boys at bay.

By the way only thing going on of note from Belgium is the Dutroux trial, and i'm sure you don't want to discuss that too much eh!

EDIT: I've just been too bloody busy at work to post lately....

TheCops · Post by **TheCops** » Sat May 29, 2004 7:49 am

well.
i just found it all to be futile. it's a right wing circle jerk here, we all know that, there is no growth in preaching to each other. i'm perty center myself and my writing style is off the cuff... then they attack your sources, then they attack your writing, then they call you a name.... from their little safety net we call the internet, i know i'm doing it right now.

i dropped out of college and i admit that i'm not as refined as some of you, but i'm really a smart man. so the stabs at my writing is just snobbery... as if a man with 31 years of life experience (not in a classroom, but living life with humans bad and good ones) ain't good enough. well ★■◆● you.

i tried... and tried... and tried... and tried... but then i let go.

it got to be a headache... one that does nothing for me, or the world. you can write a 2 page essay about john kerry or GW and it wouldn't change my mind in the voting booth.

we are just people, we are fallible, we prolly would all get along in real life. but politics do "suck a$$" as young jedi beo accurately stated.

thanx for the memories and peace ya'll. the E&C had it's day.

Tetrad · Post by **Tetrad** » Sat May 29, 2004 7:52 am

Well I don't give a crap about those issues, or if it's something slightly derivative it's almost always just a thin veil to knock on the other party, so I don't even bother anymore.

bash · Post by **bash** » Sat May 29, 2004 8:54 am

Heh, look at all the folks who can't back up their positions trashing the medium.

Content is king, baby!

Vander has never had any problem hanging in E&C because he does his homework. Don't give up so easily on free speech. It's what alot of Americans died fighting for. Remember that this Memorial Weekend. /me waves flag.

Drakona · Post by **Drakona** » Sat May 29, 2004 12:35 pm

Tyranny wrote: ... really there has only been three subject matters being discussed ...

Politics.

Iraq

The War on Terror.

You're right. It's high time we had another religion thread. Hold on, let me go work myself into an evangelistic frenzy...

No, seriously... I haven't been posting much because I feel like the board is already pretty conservative, so my speaking up would only further unbalance things. It hasn't always been that way--back when the board leaned left, I had a lot more to say. What can I say? I like hostile waters.

My main motivations for posting are (1) to have my arguments put through the grinder to strengthen my own ideas, (2) to empathize and understand opposing views, and (3) to sway neutral listeners. Without a strong left ideologue to wrestle with the first two can't happen, and with plenty of convincing conservative voices already for neutral listeners to hear, well... there isn't much reason for me to write.

That's all right with me, I suppose. I'm content to lurk and play logical assassin, for a while.

The world and the board won't always be so friendly to my ideas, and then you'll probably hear from me more.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Sat May 29, 2004 12:58 pm

I dont' post all that much in here, and when i do it's usually a joke to try and lighten the mood from all this doom and gloom.

it's kinda like there's a narcissistic goth theme goin on here most of the time.

My take on the E&C today Tyr is this: If I don't believe exactly the same way as the far-right dominance here, I'm anti-american or some other label that's chic at the time. that's pretty disgusting imo.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Sat May 29, 2004 1:05 pm

innocent milky toothed Moderator

LOL ;) Not new, just returning from hiatus. I cut my teeth on "Descent Newcomers" back in '99...

Vander has never had any problem hanging in E&C because he does his homework.

Word.

How long ago was it that E&C was mostly dominated by voices on the left? Perhaps 2 years ago, this place slanted pretty strongly to the left. That's what I liked about it -- it gave me a place to put my own arguments to the test, refining them and making them stronger in the face of good criticism. It also encouraged me to do my homework, to look up references and make sure I knew what I was talking about. Vander does this on the left, and several others do this on the right. But I think on average, the left leaning part of this board doesn't do this, and that's why we've swung to the right.

Vander never had trouble hanging. Learn from him.

there has only been three subject matters being discussed for most of the year....
Politics.... Iraq.... The War on Terror.

black culture (Bill Cosby), media bias, cell phones, spam filters, tax cuts, whether or not men or women can "just be friends", and the draft have all been discussed in the past 2 weeks.

But yes, there has been a strong emphasis on the War on Terror and closely related topics. I suppose it reflects the country's mindset.

If you want to discuss something else, start a thread on it. E&C doesn't have a mind of its own -- E&C didn't decide to discuss only the WoT -- the people who post here decide what to talk about. Every one of us has a choice what we want to start threads about.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Sat May 29, 2004 1:09 pm

"Every one of us has a choice what we want to start threads about."

now i have to find something to post here. heh

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Sat May 29, 2004 1:33 pm

As for checking sources and doing one's homework, here is what I have to say about that: if one is presenting something as fact then yes, one should do one's homework. If on the other hand, one is stating an opinion, one doesn't need to do homework.

I guess I curtailed posting here because too many of the regulars donâ??t seem to be willing to separate ones fact from ones opinion. I personally donâ??t have the time to do in-depth homework on the issues that interest me here. The result of that is I will sometimes express my opinion on the issue then get hammered for it. I have a pretty thick skin, my profession demands it. But, I got tired of having to defend an opinion.

Another reason I stopped posting is that I got tired of the polarized nature of this forum. There doesnâ??t seem to be many centrists posting. Itâ??s mostly far right and far left slugging it out. It is a rare day indeed when someone concedes and says, â??good point, I had never looked at it that way beforeâ?

Tricord · Post by **Tricord** » Sat May 29, 2004 1:44 pm

Thanks for the pat on the back, FC

You're free to discuss the Dutroux trial, I will gladly bring input. However, I am not closely watching it, it is being distorted way too much by history and the media.
By the way, elections are coming up in june as well. We have more political parties than you do in the states, but they all suck for some reason or the other... On a sidenote, voting is required by law in Belgium, so we have a 100% population turn up.

I guess I could start participating in some of the discussions again, trying to cristallize my point of view and pour it into a well-formulated post. However, I am still an outsider, which means I have limited understanding and knowledge of US homeland politics, and everyone else zero understanding and knowledge of belgian politics and habits. Sure, you can Google for "Belgium + <incriminating fact>" and come up with articles to throw in my face (it's happened before), but I feel it still doesn't allow you to write like you know everything which is local to me, and try to prove me wrong.
This feeling probably will work both ways, which is why I'm not sure how my comments are being interpretated, since they are coming from "this dude from that little country that sounds like it's France". Which is what I'm trying to avoid alltogether.

However, I still think this is a fairly mature forum, so there should be enough margin for me to participate. I'm not sure if there is, though.

To Lothar & Drakona, (and as a proof of our differences in local politics). Belgium is a federal state, just like the US. Flanders is a federal state (6million inhabitants), Brussels as a city is one (1million), and wallonia is one (3million). We have a federal government and a regional one for each of these federal states. Even though we are a small country, we have a complicated political system. Now, in the flanders politics there are several parties (which have their counterpart in the brussels and wallonia state). What we call "right" is liberal, what we call "left" is socialist. On the central-right side, you have the VLD, which are the liberals currently in power (blue political color). Centrum-left you have SP.A (red) which is the socialist party (also in power, in a coalition with the VLD). There are also the green party (called Groen!), a party called Spirit which is in a cartel with SP.A, also the nationalist party called NV-A (right, yellow) which has formed a cartel with the christian democrats (orange). Then you have the ultra-right facist party called Vlaams Blok (also orange) which has recently been succesfully tried in court on grounds of racism.
There are smaller parties but they are either of too little importance or already in a cartel with a similar, bigger party.

So, we have a very complicated political system. We have more choice when we vote, also. We have an opposition who is watching and criticizing the ones in power.

What I wanted to say, Lothar says this board needs more left views. I would fall under that criteria, since I don't stand for what right stands for. However, right seems to have another meaning here, because according to the belgian political landscape, I am liberal, thus oriented towards the center-right side.

TheCops · Post by **TheCops** » Sat May 29, 2004 2:07 pm

bash wrote:Heh, look at all the folks who can't back up their positions trashing the medium. Content is king, baby! Vander has never had any problem hanging in E&C because he does his homework. Don't give up so easily on free speech. It's what alot of Americans died fighting for. Remember that this Memorial Weekend. /me waves flag.

bash,
i really respect your writing and research skillz. i really do.

you and i have had countless tumbles on this board, we can't see each others facial expressions, body language, or sense the room because we are typing it.... not talking. so if you or i are indeed joking around we don't really know. because we don't really know.

i chatted with barry once and he said you were all about fun, and he met you in real life. so i assume in the past i must have misinturpruted your words in here. it's the main problem with the "medium".

but you should stop and think.... please. just because i'm getting my ★■◆● together from a former miserable form... and will not spend the time to "research" does not make me the coward you imply. i just don't care anymore... i'm getting a band back together, i'm juggling 3 women, i'm getting my health together. would you rather i sat behind my computer like a depressed ★■◆● and make sure i'm doing my research?

no you wouldn't.
because we both admire siddhartha's path and wouldn't wish ill on each other, because that wouldn't make sense.

it just doesn't work for me anymore... you are a smart man.

peace.

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Sat May 29, 2004 2:57 pm

Just wait for the next big thing to fire you up in the news, Tyr

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat May 29, 2004 7:57 pm

Yeah, this is just the calm before the storm.

Top Wop · Post by **Top Wop** » Sat May 29, 2004 9:53 pm

We need a good flame to fuel the fire. A little bit of heated exchange never hurt anyone.

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Sat May 29, 2004 11:33 pm

i don't post much becuase its the same old ★■◆●. back when it was more than republican democrat lefty righty bull★■◆● i posted regularly.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Sun May 30, 2004 3:15 am

hrm..

Well it does seem that I was indeed correct in a sense. It felt to me as if something was leaning too heavily towards one side. Not that leaning too heavily to the right or left is necessarily a bad thing but I kind of like a checks and balances type of system of debate.

Z tries...he really does...but most of the time he just comes off sounding like the little voice in the back of the room shouting the opposite of whatever everyone else is saying just so people 'might' pay him attention. I'm sure he doesn't do it on purpose but I can just picture if this board agreed with the majority of what he has voiced his views as, he'd turn around and start being in opposition of his own supposed views

It does feel exactly like the calm before the storm. Good analogy there Krom

Looks like my intentions worked though, I got some of you to come out of the woodwork and talk about something

Felt a little more like what I remember

Lothar, I didn't mean to imply that there were no other subjects other then what I listed even though what I listed have indeed been the "Big Three" as of late. I was merely musing that it seemed the E&C had dwindled somewhat and only the same handful of people were replying to topics. Usually if someone posted something you could check back within minutes to an hour and there was a reply addressing the previous reply or a post within a thread.

Lately I've noticed that NEW threads would go all night or for several hours during the day without ANY replies. *shrug* Just depends on the subject matter and the willingness of individuals to express their opinions on that subject matter. If they don't feel like saying anything they won't. I know that feeling very well.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sun May 30, 2004 3:52 am

I guess we will just have to bash France some more, everyone likes that!

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Sun May 30, 2004 10:20 am

The whole right wing circle jerk thing is part of the reason I rarely post here. Aother is the point that bash made, and thats content is king. Ive got a bunch of left leaning political oriented websites in my bookmarks that I never read anymore(I keep them in a folder I call "The Vast Left Wing Conspiricy" just as my own little mocking of the right wingers). When I read them I was quite up to speed in politics and the like, but I also found myself getting pissed off too much and too often at an entity I had no control over (The Bush Administration). Maybe once I learn some anger management and logic I'll start reading politics again (And these are independednt websites, mind you. Not even close to the mAss media.), but until then I'll just come in here to complain and discuss nonpolitical commentary issues that can actually generate a concensus.

Spam, anyone?

Tetrad · Post by **Tetrad** » Sun May 30, 2004 2:44 pm

Vader wrote: I'll just come in here to complain and discuss nonpolitical commentary issues that can actually generate a concensus.

The consensus thing isn't even a big deal to me. As far as all the 'content' that's posted, why should I care about what other people have done or said who happen to share the same political viewpoint as me? Just because Joe Politician did something that somebody doesn't like doesn't change my stance on the issues at hand.

Give me something to discuss that's something more than childish political gossip and I'll participate. But until then...

Nightshade · Post by **Nightshade** » Sun May 30, 2004 2:50 pm

Damn hippies.

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Sun May 30, 2004 8:21 pm

we need more topics on sex.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Sun May 30, 2004 8:49 pm

I get my fill of sex topics from NHB and TMB. But if you can make it relevant to E&C and keep it relatively tame I have no problems with it here.

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Sun May 30, 2004 9:06 pm

sex sells, sex sells.

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Sun May 30, 2004 9:20 pm

Dammit, now I gotta go watch porn.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Sun May 30, 2004 9:34 pm

WTF @ TMB.

Some Christian playa wrote:Helping couples build better marriages and better marital sex lives with information that is scripturally sound and scientifically accurate.

The world's funniest run-on sentence.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Sun May 30, 2004 9:45 pm

LOL.. building a marraige based on a bit of fear.. That'll keep em happy!

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Sun May 30, 2004 10:58 pm

DCrazy, it's gramatically correct. Don't assume a sentence is a run-on just because it's longer than 10 words and it's structurally complex.

Ferno... you really enjoy taking cheap shots at Christians, don't you? I thought you moved beyond that years ago, but all of a sudden you've taken it up again. You probably don't have the slightest clue what goes on at that site, but you don't hesitate to say they're building marriages "based on a bit of fear"... Which sort of brings us back to the point I made earlier -- failure to do your homework makes discussion really boring and one-sided. Stating your preconceptions without looking at the facts just doesn't make for good discussion.

Dedman wrote:if one is presenting something as fact then yes, one should do one's homework. If on the other hand, one is stating an opinion, one doesn't need to do homework.

If one is stating an opinion on a matter that can't be substantiated ("I think Bush is funny looking" or "I think mercy is more important than justice" or "It is my opinion that Pat Tillman was a hero") then there's no homework that needs done, you're right.

On the other hand, if one is stating an opinion about whether or not a particular fact is true ("it is my opinion that John Kerry wore a tie today" or "it is my opinion the Bush administration is trying to re-institute the draft") then the homework needs done. Even though it's an opinion, if it's an opinion about whether or not a particular fact is true, some homework should be done.

Now, I'm not saying that you can't post something and have someone else do the homework. There's nothing wrong with posting an opinion and letting others do the homework. But, What I'm saying is, if you're going to post something that's going to be debated, those who do their homework have a much easier time than those who don't. In particular, if you post something that's going to be debated, and one entire side doesn't do any homework but the other side does, it's going to be a really really one-sided discussion.

That's what we've seen here recently -- most of the debate has been left v right, and most of the people doing the homework are on the right, which leads to one-sided debate. So, there's the solution I posted earlier ("those on the left, do your homework") and that would be a nice solution -- but many of you have expressed a solution I didn't think of, namely, discussing some things that aren't left v right. So, have at it -- somebody come up with a topic that's not left v right, and start some discussion. That's probably easier than convincing people to spend more time doing research they don't want to be doing ;)

Dedman wrote:I have always felt that the key to getting along is to bend over backwards to try to understand the other guys point of view.

Entirely true. I think there's some feedback here with the "not doing homework" part, though -- it's really hard to understand an opposing point of view if nobody is willing to step up and really defend it.

I wish more people would take the time not only to research their own views, but to try to understand their opponents views as well. This has to be mutual -- both parties (by which I mean, both people, not both political parties) have to be willing to put in the time to research and discuss things. Both have to make their own views understandable and try to understand the other person's view. If that doesn't happen, well, we may as well un-ban Rican and ask deFay to come back ;)

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Mon May 31, 2004 2:39 am

Lothar wrote:I wish more people would take the time not only to research their own views, but to try to understand their opponents views as well. This has to be mutual -- both parties (by which I mean, both people, not both political parties) have to be willing to put in the time to research and discuss things. Both have to make their own views understandable and try to understand the other person's view. If that doesn't happen, well, we may as well un-ban Rican and ask deFay to come back

Nooo! Please, let us hope it doesn't come to that

roid · Post by **roid** » Mon May 31, 2004 6:51 am

i don't post as much as i used to because this place scares me with comments like "kill them all". i'm very idealistic, and it freaks the hell outa me that people can say stuff like that. i write it off as ppl just being dishonest with their own feelings, and writing ★■◆● to look tough.

i'd learn by finding common ground with ppl and then exploring the subject from all points of view involved (common ground withstanding).

after saying that, i can say that i'm not learning much here.

if personality types could be catagorised into left and right, mine is as left as they come. if i carefully read through the posts in this forum i lately find that i just get ★■◆●ing angry with the insensitivities.
some things said here, if you said it in front of me in real life i would have kneejerk slapped you in the face. [spoiler]just the kindof stuff that you NORMALLY expect only kids to say. i find that if i visualise a lot of people in EC topics as children, then i can make it further through the topics. i don't want anyone to take offence to this, that's why this is *coloured* out. [/spoiler]

so i don't bother participating. the topics are predictable, even more so when you look at who posted it.
i've got more personally productive things to do than play the token hippy in this rightwing drunken pub brawl.

but all that said about the forum, i still don't write it off, i just wait for better days, and i still read it (although i often skim, to keep my sanity).
and it felt nice to get that off my chest. *aaaah*

in summary, i'd rather be reading my psych and actually learning something than hanging out here where every few mins i have to wipe the tobacco flavoured spittle off my forehead

i'm unsure if theres anything a mod could do to help the situation. i like you lothar. but i stopped reading and started skimming this forum before you were mod.

Drakona · Post by **Drakona** » Mon May 31, 2004 8:40 am

Ferno wrote:LOL.. building a marraige based on a bit of fear.. That'll keep em happy!

LOL, what a funny thing to say! I'd ask you why you said it, but I suspect I know--likely you think that what goes on there is telling people to limit their sex lives based on Biblical teachings, or threats about what'll happen if you do *anything* weird... right? That's pretty funny. The reigning opinion over there is that married couples can do whatever the heck they want. In fact, it's the only Christian site I know that argues masturbation before marriage is a *righteous* thing...

Lothar and I were actually talking last night in response to what Kurupt said--"we need more topics about sex" and I said, "well, maybe I'll just start one of the better threads that's going in the marriage bed right now..." Then after a moment's thought, I said, "But which one? No way the favorite positions thread would stay clean on the DBB... ways to use various toys... nope... ways to turn each other on... eenh... discussion of the excellent article about how to strip... no way... " I couldn't think of one serious discussion about sex that would *stay* serious here on the DBB.

It's pretty funny, really, given how dirty the sex talk is around here, and how clean it is over there--I often read that site and NHB back to back, and information in the latter just makes me laugh, and laugh, and laugh...

Anyway. Not to drag the thread off topic or anything. Maybe we can think of some productive and serious sex topics... but don't be knockin' the marriage bed, 'kay?

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Mon May 31, 2004 10:30 am

I'm glad you spotted the humor in the last quip Drak. Quite a relief imo.

Gooberman · Post by **Gooberman** » Mon May 31, 2004 10:50 am

Well I do agree with FC that said that it would be completely differnent and better at a coffeeshop. Or, yah, a bar

I don't know, like Drakona use too, I come here because I know itâ??s an uphill battle. I would sooner leave this BB if it became all-liberal then if I was the only liberal. But the conservative dominance can get overwhelming. Sometimes I look at the thread and semi-want to respond but know that I will then get 5 replies to my responce, and if I respond to all five, then those five will then each give me five different responses to my five counter arguments. That is the toughest growth to deal with! Yes, thatâ??s an over exaggeration, but to some extent that happens. I often find myself having to ignore good points or valid responses completely just because of my own time constraint. DBB is not my life.

Heh, look at all the folks who can't back up their positions trashing the medium.

Look at the Cosby thread. I was impressed at how the conversation managed to last with no real opposition! But the left on this board can't do that. The threesome Bash, Lothar and I had going on in a thread: I wrote a semi-long response and the only thing I got in response was something that I entitled as "off topic!" I didn't want to respond to the off topic because then the thread would go that way. (my point isnâ??t that you two could no longer continue the thread, I know both of you could. My point is that I had no control over when it ended.) And thatâ??s my point, the left here can't bobble a topic like the right can. Its like a game of volleyball, we have to hit it over the net sooner then you guys and it's up to you if you return it.

The topics that the right feel stronger on just last longer.

MehYam · Post by **MehYam** » Mon May 31, 2004 11:49 am

Drakona wrote:but don't be knockin' the marriage bed, 'kay?

Somebody's got to... after all, the married people don't.

:p

Gooberman · Post by **Gooberman** » Mon May 31, 2004 11:56 am

Most studies indicate that married women have better orgasms then single ones. I wouldn't be surprised if this was true since there are 'no worries', or at least, not as many like spilling and stuff.

Flabby Chick · Post by **Flabby Chick** » Mon May 31, 2004 12:22 pm

Drakona wrote:Lothar and I were actually talking last night in response to what Kurupt said--"we need more topics about sex" and I said, "well, maybe I'll just start one of the better threads that's going in the marriage bed right now..." Then after a moment's thought, I said, "But which one? No way the favorite positions thread would stay clean on the DBB... ways to use various toys... nope... ways to turn each other on... eenh... discussion of the excellent article about how to strip... no way... " I couldn't think of one serious discussion about sex that would *stay* serious here on the DBB.

Drak, it's not really fair to compare the two BB's though is it? And i'm sure you're not belittling the DBB 'cause you can't see a sex thread being taken seriously.

This is a bar here not a seminary. Are we not here for a chat, somtimes serious, somtimes frivolent, but allways there's an underlying sarcastic sence of fun. I like it that way, as i think most people do.

I'd also say that if there was a forum for the exact subjects you mentioned that was moderated well, you'd have a great discussion group, 'cause i think most of the people that are here can discuss such subjects very seriously, but they just don't look for that in the DBB. Call it the Touchy Subject Forum.

EDIT: Goob sort of proves my point lol

MehYam · Post by **MehYam** » Mon May 31, 2004 1:18 pm

Gooberman wrote:Most studies indicate that married women have better orgasms then single ones.

With their husbands?

Gooberman · Post by **Gooberman** » Mon May 31, 2004 2:33 pm

Maybe that too, your gonna have to find someone else to do that study.

Kyouryuu · Post by **Kyouryuu** » Mon May 31, 2004 7:47 pm

I don't post here much now because I feel the staunch right-wing here makes things very personal, attacking your character rather than talking about the issue. I don't care if this is the "intended" effect or not - debate here is littered with snide personal jabs and attacks. It's a hostile environment - that's why I don't care for it anymore.

E&C Dragging Arse...

E&C Dragging Arse...

Re: E&C Dragging Arse...