The "fifth" force of nature

[Top Gun]

Flip, go get professional help. You seriously need it.

[flip]

Ok Ferno

[Sergeant Thorne]

You know, Top Gun, not everyone necessarily has time or money to just go get professional help. I think it's very possible that TG is right, though, Flip (I'm sorry to say). In lieu of seeking proper, professional help, perhaps you could at least give this online resource that I came across a look. Online stuff is often questionable, but I think this one may be the exception (they actually recommend it over private sessions).

[Sergeant Thorne]

It's late, and it's entirely possible that I skimmed a little in coming up to speed on this thread, but it seems to me that the topic has deviated quite a bit...

[flip]

LOL, I'm not sure golf is gonna help in this case

[flip]

http://hpschapters.org/northcarolina/NSDS/neptunium.pdf

Maybe it would help if I'm not the one saying it?

[Krom]

but it's likely due to your conditioning. You don't see the wonderful strangeness of things. You only know the answer to multiple choice questions. This has severely limited your abilities.

He will just dismiss you as brainwashed, insult you and then continue to quote random articles from Wikipedia or absurd blog articles

[flip]

Yeah, but thinking were going to morph into aliens is completely normal I don't know why you guys get your panties in a bunch over this. I just find the timeline interesting, especially on a quantum scale. I mean, in 1940, a scientist produces Neptunium in a lab, in the same year, in Russia, 2 scientists observe spontaneous fission in Uranium ore. It's that "instantaneous action at a distance" that I'm after, and the timeline allows for it.

A common presentation of the paradox is as such: two particles interact and fly off in opposite directions. Even when the particles are so far apart that any classical interaction would be impossible (see principle of locality), a measurement of one particle nonetheless determines the corresponding measurement of the other.

[Ferno]

How can you find something interesting when you don't even understand it?

[flip]

I never claimed to understand it. Who finds anything interesting that they already understand? More uselessness. Do you understand how particles can interact at distances where any classical interaction would be impossible? If so enlighten me. If not, well then just keep attacking those things you don't understand.

[vision]

Maybe it would help if I'm not the one saying it?

Does anyone here actually know what flip is trying to say? Is he afraid of neptunium? Did electromagnetic waves create it? Between the insults and random quoting of websites there doesn't seem to be a thesis anywhere in this thread. Can someone besides flip help me out?

[flip]

You know what, I just looked back over this whole thread and there's not one insult from me period. The only people who have been insulting is you, TG and Ferno. I've tried to keep this discussion on track as much as possible as can be considering the repeated attempts at derail and insults from you guys.

[Ferno]

Who finds anything interesting that they already understand? More uselessness.

well then just keep attacking those things you don't understand.

Your biggest problem is having an honest discussion

there's not one insult from me period

hard to "insult" someone when their own words are their undoing.

I've been wondering something for a while now. What do you hope to gain out of all this?

Do you understand how particles can interact at distances where any classical interaction would be impossible?

yeah. electron spin.

[flip]

That's not an insult Ferno, that's the absolute truth. You lied about what you deleted, and your still lying about it. I don't know how you don't get that. This is what you deleted Ferno, twice. This and only this, but when confronted about it, you said if I had left out the daft part, it would have been fine, but again for the millionth time, that wasn't part of what you deleted. So out of your own mouth you admit that what I wrote shouldn't have been deleted, yet you did anyways. That makes you a liar. It's not an insult, just what you are.

Obi, I'm 98.6% sure that most are cool and some are douchebags. Get over it

[flip]

I was hoping to have a discussion with the other 98.6% on this board, about how elements form.

This problem has been resolved by Einstein's theory of general relativity in which gravitational interaction is mediated by deformation of space-time geometry. Matter warps the geometry of space-time and these effects are, as with electric and magnetic fields, propagated at the speed of light. Thus, in the presence of matter, space-time becomes non-Euclidean, resolving the apparent conflict between Newton's proof of the conservation of angular momentum and Einstein's theory of special relativity. Mach's question regarding the bulging of rotating bodies is resolved because local space-time geometry is informing a rotating body about the rest of the universe. In Newton's theory of motion, space acts on objects, but is not acted upon. In Einstein's theory of motion, matter acts upon space-time geometry, deforming it, and space-time geometry acts upon matter.

[Top Gun]

Maybe it would help if I'm not the one saying it?

Does anyone here actually know what flip is trying to say? Is he afraid of neptunium? Did electromagnetic waves create it? Between the insults and random quoting of websites there doesn't seem to be a thesis anywhere in this thread. Can someone besides flip help me out?

The only thing I've ever been able to get out of the neptunium part is that he believes that because some people in one part of the world were doing experiments on radioactive substances in the 1940s, that magically caused neptunium to be created halfway around the planet, because that's what he understands "spooky action at a distance" to mean, and that nuclear testing changed the atmosphere forever somehow. And then there was the stuff about light somehow creating matter, and that's when my brain decided to turn off to save itself some damage.

[vision]

I was hoping to have a discussion with the other 98.6% on this board, about how elements form.

Most of the elements in nature formed through fission inside stars. The lightest ones formed as the early universe cooled, and some elements are man-made. Not sure what the quote has to do with anything. The process is pretty well known.

[flip]

When nuclear fission was discovered in 1938, it became clear that, if the process also produced neutrons, this might be the mechanism to produce the neutrons for a chain reaction. This was proven in 1939

In 1939 it was figured out how to produce free neutrons. In 1940, Neptunium was produced in a lab by bombarding Uranium with free neutrons and in the same year 2 scientists across the world observe Nuclear Fission in a Uranium deposit. Yet no Neptunium was found there and it was still another 12 years, 1952, before it was discovered in nature. Seems like the rarity of spontaneous fission, and the fact that it was actually observed in the same year as Neptunium was discovered, that would be the place Neptunium would most likely exist. Yet, it still wasn't found for another 12 years. None of this has anything to do with the OP, which is if and how energy in waves might exert a force on matter. Although this quote here:

This problem has been resolved by Einstein's theory of general relativity in which gravitational interaction is mediated by deformation of space-time geometry. Matter warps the geometry of space-time and these effects are, as with electric and magnetic fields, propagated at the speed of light. Thus, in the presence of matter, space-time becomes non-Euclidean, resolving the apparent conflict between Newton's proof of the conservation of angular momentum and Einstein's theory of special relativity. Mach's question regarding the bulging of rotating bodies is resolved because local space-time geometry is informing a rotating body about the rest of the universe. In Newton's theory of motion, space acts on objects, but is not acted upon. In Einstein's theory of motion, matter acts upon space-time geometry, deforming it, and space-time geometry acts upon matter.

could help tie the 2 together.

[flip]

The next thing I would wonder is where the Uranium they were bombarding in the lab came from and if on a quantum scale, although separated by great distances, there was a cause and effect between them. Energy and matter cannot be destroyed or created, it can only change between the 2, yet it never becomes completely one or the other. That's whole premise behind General Relativity. It does cause me to wonder if there was interaction at a distance. It has to go somewhere.

[vision]

The next thing I would wonder is where the Uranium they were bombarding in the lab came from...

Stars. It came from stars. That's where most elements come from. Where do you think it came from?

[flip]

C'mon dude, I know your hard to deal with but dang, we are talking about where the Neptunium in nature came from. Have you been so intent on being an ass the whole time you don't realize that? The Neptunium in nature exists by an induced neutron.

I mean ,lol, where the Uranium came from the ground. No friggin wonder.

[vision]

wut?

[Krom]

flip, your "Neptunium was created by nuclear testing" idea is akin to saying the moons of Jupiter did not exist till Galileo created them with his telescope, it is that absurd.

What is next? The cart goes before the horse? The modern automobile was invented before the wheel/stone age/by dinosaurs? Electricity didn't exist in nature till Edison and Tesla created it? Is it humanly possible to think up an analogy that is as mind numbingly stupid as this Neptunium idea?

[flip]

I don't know exactly what your logic is Krom. There's evidence and many sources that say that Neptunium was created by Nuclear blasts. That's a given really, considering it was a Nuclear explosion. That's not what were talking about though, just threw that in there to see if you guys had any idea of what your talking about. We're talking about the Neptunium that is found in nature, through an induced neutron in Uranium deposits. I see what the problem is here.

Neptunium was the first synthetic transuranium element of the actinide series discovered. Neptunium-239 (half-life = 2.4 days) was first produced in 1940 at Berkeley, CA by the bombardment of uranium-238 with cyclotron-produced neutrons. Seventeen isotopes of neptunium are known and all are radioactive. Neptunium-237 is obtained in gram quantities as the by-product from nuclear reactors in the production of plutonium. The longest lived isotope is Np-237; it is an alpha-emitter with a half-life of 2.14 million years. Neptunium is a by-product of plutonium production activities. Neptunium is present in spent nuclear fuel, high-level radioactive wastes resulting from the processing of spent nuclear fuel, and radioactive wastes associated with operations of reactors and fuel reprocessing plants. A small amount of neptunium would have been generated by atmospheric nuclear weapon testing, which ceased worldwide by 1980. The amount of neptunium in soil from past nuclear testing is on the order of 0.0001 pCi/g. Releases of neptunium from weapons production facilities have cause localized contamination. There are no major commercial uses of neptunium. Trace quantities of neptunium are found in nature associated with uranium ores. Neptunium compounds are ionic and would not be volatile and would exist solely in the particulate phase in the ambient atmosphere. Particulate-phase neptunium compounds will be removed from the atmosphere by wet or dry deposition. In soil, neptunium is generally more mobile than other transuranic elements such as plutonium, americium, and curium, moving with percolating water to lower soil layers. Neptunium compounds bind to soil particles, and bind more tightly with clay soils as compared with sandy soils. Neptunium is readily taken up by plants, with plant concentrations similar to soil concentrations. Neptunium compounds are ionic and would not volatilize from moist or dry soil surfaces. Neptunium has 4 valence states in water: Np3+; Np4+; NpO+; and (NpO)2+. Neptunium forms tri- and tetrahalide compounds such as NpF3, NpF4, NpCl4, NpBr3, NpI3, and oxides of various compositions such as Np3O8 and NpO2. Since neptunium has only been produced in limited quantities and it has few uses outside of research activities, exposure to neptunium compounds would be limited to individuals involved in scientific research using neptunium or at plutonium production or nuclear waste facilities.

[flip]

There were many early false reports of the discovery of neptunium. The most significant was by Enrico Fermi who believed that bombarding uranium with neutrons followed by beta decay would lead to the formation of element 93. In 1934, he bombarded uranium atoms with neutrons and reported that he had produced elements 93 and 94. As it turned out, Fermi had actually fissioned or split uranium atoms into many fragment radioisotopes. The explanation and announcement of the discovery of fission was later published by Hahn and Strassman, although it was their co-worker Lisa Meitner who had correctly interpreted the results of the experiments. In 1940, with excitement about fission reaching the University of California at Berkeley, Professor Edwin McMillan and graduate student Philip Abelson bombarded uranium with cyclotron-produced moderated (slow) neutrons, resulting not in “fission” but "fusion" of the reactants forming the new element 93, which they named "neptunium":

[flip]

[youtube]J3YpBtCrVjU[/youtube]

Alien Sounds

Premiere Date:December 30, 2011

What does the Universe sound like? From the sweep of a pulsar, to the deafening roar of our boiling sun this episode explores the undiscovered soundscapes of the solar system, the galaxy, and the entire cosmos. And, is it true that in space nobody can hear you scream?!? Our scientists reveal that there are places in the Universe that prove this sci-fi statement wrong.

It's on now if anybody is interested.

EDIT: Hah, they just said the same thing. These pressure waves created by the expanding and contracting of gasses by dark matter played an essential role in sculpting the Universe. So my idea is sound, just needs refinement.

EDIT: Yeah, I benefit nothing from bringing these discussions here, My mistake. I over-estimated those on this board. You can delete this if you like, because the ones I would benefit from here, won't participate and I have no more desire to participate in high school type debates.

[vision]

You get negative responses not because your audience is stupid, but because you can't convey your ideas properly -- mostly because you don't have a clear idea or understanding of what you are saying, thus the constant "refinement" you mention on every page.

Learn how to write a hypothesis.

[Ferno]

That's not an insult Ferno, that's the absolute truth.

denial

You lied about what you deleted, and your still lying about it. I don't know how you don't get that. This is what you deleted Ferno, twice. This and only this, but when confronted about it, you said if I had left out the daft part, it would have been fine, but again for the millionth time, that wasn't part of what you deleted. So out of your own mouth you admit that what I wrote shouldn't have been deleted, yet you did anyways. That makes you a liar. It's not an insult, just what you are.

again: what do you hope to gain out of this? Are you going to get a detective award if one of your accusations manages to stick, or what?

Yes, I deleted the post where you were calling someone daft. That's an insult and if you check the policies, you'll find that personal attacks, no matter the reason, are not allowed. I'm sorry that you can't understand that. I'm sure you can find other boards that will allow you to call whoever you want whatever you want, but this isn't one of them.

you keep claiming i'm lying about the reason or whatever even though I have nothing to hide (what would the point of that be?), over and over again. but it's just not holding water, dude.


I'm sure this little merry-go-round has been fun for all involved. I do so love re-hashing out ancient history and living in the past. It's great for everyone's mood.

Obi, I'm 98.6% sure that most are cool and some are douchebags. Get over it

If you're going to quote a post, quote all of it. Otherwise it just looks like you're trying to cover your own ass for your own sake. Ooops, I must be lying about that too! Someone publicly flog me for an imagined slight!

[flip]

You really are an idiot Ferno, and a huge stinkin liar. I did quote all of what you deleted, but your too damn stupid to realize it. The daft part was in my explanation as to what I meant when I wrote :

Obi, I'm 98.6% sure that most are cool and some are douchebags. Get over it

The daft part was and is still directed at you, which you so predictably and constantly reaffirm.

[flip]

Let me see if I can get you to see the error of your ways.

I wrote to Obi:

Obi, I'm 98.6% sure that most are cool and some are douchebags. Get over it

You deleted it so I wrote again to Obi:

Obi, I'm 98.6% sure that most are cool and some are douchebags. Get over it

You deleted it, so I went to .com and quoted what you had deleted and gave an explanation as to what I meant. Then told you I couldn't help you were daft and couldn't see what I was trying to say when I simply told Obi:

Obi, I'm 98.6% sure that most are cool and some are douchebags. Get over it

[Ferno]

yup, because that's exactly what i do. I go around deleting perfectly normal posts, because that's exactly what a rational person would do.

all you are doing is quoting a sliver of the entire post to make yourself look good while avoiding everything else.


If I had known this would become a crusade, I would have kept the post somewhere. You're still free to dig out anything else, though. Wait, maybe you don't have to because LOOK AT THAT! the rest of the message you so conveniently leave out...

Flip wrote:
Obi made a blanket remark towards the Rangers, I wrote:

Quote:
Obi, I'm 98.6% sure that most are cool and some are douchebags. Get over it <--borderline


Meaning, everybody's human, don't disparage the Rangers over 1 or 2.
I can't help your daft. <--that's a personal attack

Plus, you guys have a habit of enforcing your own fundamental views by way of force, rather than debate. So, it was no way near the first time happened.<--not a personal attack, but unfounded.

EDIT: And when that remark was made, I was hours away from my first drink.

Just in case you want to claim that this is a lie (your MO now), that's from the same thread you linked to here.


Now, what would you have done if i simply edited it? would you complain that the modship around here is overbearing? a dictatorship? unfair to you? Or would you use it as part of a crusade?

[flip]

Your pathetic. Your the one that brought it up, and continue to bring it up. It's on .com. Something you keep failing to realize.

Meaning, everybody's human, don't disparage the Rangers over 1 or 2.
I can't help your daft. <--that's a personal attack

Plus, you guys have a habit of enforcing your own fundamental views by way of force, rather than debate. So, it was no way near the first time happened.<--not a personal attack, but unfounded

This is the explanation genius. As soon as you used this for the excuse to delete what I said, I knew you didn't even remember what you deleted. What I didn't realize is that you would continually lie about it.

[Pumo]

Mmmh, what was this thread about again?
From 'the force of sound' to 'wave mechanics' to 'Neptunium' to 'let's bash Ferno until the end of times'?

I'm not able to distinguish if there's a discussion goin' on here or some kind of circus show.

[flip]

See, that's the problem here. I write something that looks so plain to me in black and white, and somehow it's Ferno getting bashed. When in reality, he opened this can of worms and everyone expects me to admit wrong-doing, when in fact he was the one in the wrong and trying to conceal it. That's the only reason these discussions get derailed. This placed really is the Twilight Zone. Ferno is the one bashing himself. I've told him 2-3 times to drop this ★■◆●, but he refused and what he can't seem to see, is that he is using my response to him on .com as the very excuse for deleting my comment over here, twice. Which was simply

Obi, I'm 98.6% sure that most are cool and some are douchebags. Get over it

Now, you mean to tell me, that somehow I'm the ★■◆●?

[Sergeant Thorne]

I would say anyone who's a douchebag should take this up with the admins immediately, because that is definitely a personal attack.

[flip]

And just to clear things up, and then I guess I'll let this whole thing drop and nobody here will ever have to worry about it again.

It's really simple. I saw how a tone generator with salt on it (matter) revealed the shape of the waveform. So I wondered if all this wave energy (sound, electromagnetic and gravitational), somehow worked together and the structure of the Universe revealed this form through it's structure.

As far as Neptunium goes, I only found it curious that in 1940, a scientist was able to produce it by Nuclear Fusion in a lab, yet it is also said that it can be produced by a neutron capture as the result of fission in Uranium ores. In the same year that it was created in the lab, 2 scientists actually observe this process of fission in a Uranium Ore. A rare event, though not impossible, because it was observed in 1940. So, we apparently have 2 different means by which to produce Neptunium. One is artificially by bombardment resulting in fusion, and the other is by a neutron capture released by natural fission.

What I don't understand, is why these scientists that observed natural fission in a Uranium ore, did not also find Neptunium in said ore, when they observed the very process by which it is said that Neptunium is produced in Uranium ores. It took another 12 years after being produced in a lab, to find it in nature. So, Neptunium can actually be produced by 2 different methods, although I'm not sure if that is true, because there is no data before atmospheric testing. So I wonder if the Neptunium we now find in Uranium ores is not actually the result of Nuclear testing where the Uranium ore was bombarded by free neutrons released in these explosions. Either that or Neptunium can be produced by either fusion or fission, no stars required

[flip]

As far as taking any of this up with an admin, I have never cared that much to do so, but I'm not gonna sit idly by while Ferno continues to misrepresent the whole situation. My thread got locked, Ferno deletes my innocuous remark to Obi twice, so I post a stupid video in each forum and I sat my 1 week 'cooling off period out. Far in the past in my mind and I let it drop, but Ferno keeps rehashing it and not even realizing he told on himself. Heh, hilarious. Now, can we move forward?

[Sergeant Thorne]

It was a joke--someone would have to own being a "douchebag" in order to make a complaint. It obviously wasn't a personal attack, because it was impersonal. And I don't know who gets their panties in a twist over "daft"...

[flip]

I know you were joking, but it's so damn hard around here to get a thought across, I wanted to make it completely clear that when I made the daft remark, it was directed at Ferno in my response to why I couldn't understand why he would delete :

Obi, I'm 98.6% sure that most are cool and some are douchebags. Get over it

[Pumo]

Well, I'm not exactly saying that you (flip) are the wrong-doing and the bad guy, I know that Ferno can be VERY 'trollish' from time to time.

But what I also see is that you (taking apart whether you are right or not) are also a bit, umh, 'persistent' (or should I say pretty stubborn? ), be it on the Waves thing, the Neptunium issue or the Ferno problem, and I see that as a a problem stemming from your side; Not to say that this makes you bad or wrong or something, but it's just plain annoying .

I honestly think that both of you (flip & Ferno) needs to calm down and stop posting in this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.


PS. I'm not judging who's wrong or right, maybe Ferno is right, maybe Flip is right, maybe both are right or maybe both are wrong, that's not the issue I'm addressing on this post.