Best Kickstarter ever!

[Nightshade]

Why?

Because...OBAMA!

[Tunnelcat]

Well, Putin ratcheted things up a bit too yesterday. Don't blame Obama for the American trend of meddling in the Middle East. The U.S. has a long history of doing just that. We're still Israel's friend last time I checked and still have their backs. And where were all these war weary people when Bush started his 2 pre-emptive wars?

[vision]

And where were all these war weary people when Bush started his 2 pre-emptive wars?

You have a hardon for Bush that rivals TB Islamophobia. I remember lots of people pissed off about the proposal to attack Iraq, a lot of calls to senators and congressmen, and a lot of rolling eyes coupled with hands thrown in the air when the government ignored greater than half the public -- and just like Syria today it wasn't divided across party lines.

Also, this video is damn funny.

[Sergeant Thorne]

And where were all these war weary people when Bush started his 2 pre-emptive wars?

Certain of them learned from Bush's wars.

<----

[Tunnelcat]

What Bush did to our country's reputation in the world still pisses me off about as much as Obama pisses of TB, so I have to keep appearances up.

Yes, the video was hilarious too.

Certain of them learned from Bush's wars.

<----

Ahhhh, but don't you think that if we had another major terrorist attack on our soil, that the go-to-war psychosis would take right over AGAIN, even with those enlightened people who now realize that preemptive war is stupid and unproductive?

[Sergeant Thorne]

Well, I see it as more than stupid and unproductive. The way I see if we're being taken advantage of just as much as them, and we need to take this back from the interests driving it. Also I don't trust our government not to have a hand in the instigating events. Tying that all together, it was eye-opening for me how our constitutional rights were effected as a convenient result of 9/11, and I think it's clear that it was really what certain parties (not political "parties") have wanted all along. I believe that we will find down the road that it was not worth the cost. I would rather face a "terrorist threat" myself than lose a good thing to a bad system of government, for the sake of my children and theirs.

These wars cost us a lot of money and lives, and that would be acceptable if we really had to step up and fight for something worth fighting for, and if the decision were made constitutionally, with a declaration of war and a damned good reason. We do not have good people at the helm, and so it follows that we will not have good reasons to go to war. If we do not need to go to war, we damn well had better not be going to war.

[Tunnelcat]

The problem is, whenever there is fear, people can be exploited and manipulated, even good people. That's why I so loathe Bush. He and Cheney unabashedly used this very tool to build and cement a far more tyrannical and militaristic government structure than has ever existed in this country throughout history. His administration gave so much new power to the executive branch that the next president will have no qualms using it.

A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defense against foreign danger have been always the instruments of tyranny at home.

[Spidey]

His administration gave so much new power to the executive branch that the next president will have no qualms using it.

Still don’t understand how things work…huh.

[Tunnelcat]

I'm referring to the Patriot Act. That's his baby and his baby alone. He took advantage of a willing and fearful populace during a time of foreign aggression to get that bit of nastiness passed. Happy?

[callmeslick]

I'm referring to the Patriot Act. That's his baby and his baby alone. He took advantage of a willing and fearful populace during a time of foreign aggression to get that bit of nastiness passed. Happy?

agreed, but we do have to step back and admit that nothing about that act has been scaled back by successive administrations or Congresses.

[Tunnelcat]

Power is a drug. It's easily given without thought, but impossible to take away once used.

[Spidey]

Hey it’s not about me being happy, if you wish to remain ignorant about who can make laws…hell if I care.

If you hadn’t used the term…”His administration gave” I would have no problem at all, if you had said “Bush persuaded congress”…then I would also have no problem.

I corrected you once before on this exact thing, but that Bush hard on is taking all of your blood.

[Tunnelcat]

It's not really a Bush hard on. That would imply I'm enjoying Bush. It's more of a metal-sliver-under-the-toenail type of irritation, that keeps on festering. Just ask woodchip and TB about their Obama sliver irritations.

[Spidey]

Sure…but Obama is still relevant.

[Will Robinson]

I'm referring to the Patriot Act. That's his baby and his baby alone. He took advantage of a willing and fearful populace during a time of foreign aggression to get that bit of nastiness passed. Happy?

agreed, but we do have to step back and admit that nothing about that act has been scaled back by successive administrations or Congresses.

a lot of that overstepping of authority has been enhanced by the current administration. Safe guards and limits that were part of the original law have been removed and/or ignored. It isn't just that the Dems and Obama haven't done anything to stop it, they have stepped it up!

[Tunnelcat]

a lot of that overstepping of authority has been enhanced by the current administration. Safe guards and limits that were part of the original law have been removed and/or ignored. It isn't just that the Dems and Obama haven't done anything to stop it, they have stepped it up!

I don't disagree there. It's the original act that really gave Obama the power to do what he's doing today however. But you're forgetting it also gave our security agencies more power too. Essentially, the dam failing is a now the real problem, but the person who put the crack in it in the first place deserves the main credit for creating the catastrophe. But alas, I'm crying over spilled milk. The damage is done and it's going to take pulling toenails to fix.

[Will Robinson]

a lot of that overstepping of authority has been enhanced by the current administration. Safe guards and limits that were part of the original law have been removed and/or ignored. It isn't just that the Dems and Obama haven't done anything to stop it, they have stepped it up!

I don't disagree there. It's the original act that really gave Obama the power to do what he's doing today however. But you're forgetting it also gave our security agencies more power too. Essentially, the dam failing is a now the real problem, but the person who put the crack in it in the first place deserves the main credit for creating the catastrophe. But alas, I'm crying over spilled milk. The damage is done and it's going to take pulling toenails to fix.

Pulling toenails should start by not giving any kind of excuses for a guy who saw a crack, said he would fix it...as he stuffed a stick of dynamite in the crack... and lit the fuse!
I have a completely different idea of what "pulling toenails" would be like metaphorically. It doesn't include carrying water and providing shelter for the perpetrators. You are saying 'pull the toenails' but your actions are exposing your unflinching support for the guy who lit the fuse...

[Tunnelcat]

I'm getting too old to foment and take part in a revolution, and that's what it's going to take to root out the corruption in Washington. Trying to vote in this new guy here and there will be, for all practical purposes, futile. We can't win against the money machine. Americans are too stuck in their little ruts to care enough to even learn civics at this point in time. That said, I will not vote for the usual suspects as you seem to think I like to do. I may be liberal, but I will keep trying to throw a monkey wrench into the system when it looks like it will to damage to the works.