What does a "Government Shutdown" look like?

[woodchip]

Lets throw this into the liberal junta's power trip:

"Veterans of the Vietnam War were arrested earlier tonight at the New York City memorial after staying on the premises past the curfew time of 10 p.m. Police gave multiple warnings as veterans continued to read from a list of names. Video from the event shows that not only veterans were loaded into the paddy wagon, but also younger participants in the vigil as well."

So why weren't the OWS crowd arrested when they squatted in NYC for weeks on end, drugging themselves senseless and crapping on police cars. I guess when you are aligned with Obama's philosophy it's alright to stay put past the curfew.

[vision]

So you dismiss the man and not the points

I commented on one of the points above. Trying to keep funding open for experimental cancer treatments (think of the children!) is a PR stunt, and apparently it succeeded if you can't see it for what it is. If they really cared about the health of children, or anyone else for that matter, they would be on-board with health care reform. After all, the ACA is modeled after a republican idea. Let's keep it in perspective folks. The health of every citizen is priceless. It doesn't matter how much it costs because it's worth every penny and then some. There is plenty of money in the defense fund for cancer treatments and anything else that comes up. Poorer countries do it quite well with fewer resources. We can too, as soon as we elect legislators who are less greedy. That goes for both sides.

Since you are all so happy to spit out horribly incorrect anecdotes relating the economy and debt limit to a household and personal credit (unbelievably absurd analogy and a sign you have no idea how it works in real life), then here is an anecdote you can understand: Tell me why you would keep spending money on ammunition for your enormous stockpile of guns, more guns than anyone in your neighborhood by a longshot, and not spend money on medicine for your sick children and elderly parents? Sounds irresponsible to me.

[CUDA]

Ya I run a multi million dollar a year buisness. I have no idea about economics

[Spidey]

Well vision, at least you can see thru the stunts pulled by "one" side, I have to give you credit for that.

And no, a government budget is not the same thing as a household or business budget, but some basic fundamental principals apply to any budget.

I'll let you figure out what those might be, seeing how you have so much experience running budgets.

[vision]

Ya I run a multi million[sic] dollar a year buisness.[sic] I have no idea about economics

Yet you insist on oversimplifications. Please prove you know what you are talking about by resisting to use the "household budget" analogy because it makes you look like an idiot. Want to be pegged as one of those types who simply recite talking points? Keep it up.

...seeing how you have so much experience running budgets.

Yeah, just as much experience as anyone else here does. But I'm not going to oversimplify complex phenomena with platitudes. Nor am I going to be blinded by double-talk about how the country is broke. That is a flat out lie. We seem to have plenty money for an insanely large military and imperialist ambitions, don't we? The budget/debt problems have nothing to do with being broke and everything to do with skewed priorities -- and both parties are squarely to blame. Rather than scaling back programs at home we should probably scale back the empire. That would be real, honest budgeting. Hell, doing so might even help bring about more peace in the world.

But I know it will never happen. Americans are too high on freedom and individual liberty to take in interest in their neighbors, in their health, in science and education, in art and innovation. Great things are in store for humanity. Unfortunately for us we won't be leading the herd.

Go 'Murica.

[Jeff250]

So you dismiss the man and not the points

You do open yourself to that attack whenever you just make a large copy and paste of someone else. It's unfair to ask people to spend an enormous amount of time fact-checking a large quote when you only took ten seconds to paste it. If you write a paragraph or two in your own words that includes sources as appropriate, you're more likely to get some bites.

[CUDA]

Ya but I had already fact checked most of them. I guess its just easier for some people to condemn the source then to look into it themselves. Not to mention that almost everyone of those instances had already been posted here before.

Besides it got the response that I expected, some here choose to ignore the vindictiveness of the Spite Houses choices in the government closures then to ask the real questions. Why did they choose to do it?
as has been reported those closures were done by direction of the Spite House and this administration. Again. Why? Why did they choose to make it appear that the amber alert system was shut down when in fact it wasn't. Why?
the answer is simple. FEAR. they are playing this country. They could have handled this shut down in a manner thst would have lessened the impact of the average citizen but the intentionally chose to make it hurt. Are they that afraid that the people would see that maybe we dont need all this government after all?

this administration chose to close those things for one reason only. they chose to close down private businesses, public roads, the ocean, and to kick people out of their houses not because they had to but because it would increase the level of pain on the American people for political capitol. And then they add to their fear in an unstable market, by bald face lying to them about a debt default that cannot constitutionally happen. They have the gaul to say this is all the GOP's fault, they wont negotiate. all while publicly stateing that THEY refuse to negotiate. They say the GOP is holding this country hostage by throwing a temper tantrum, all while acting like a tyrant and saying my way or the highway. Seriously? Try leadership mr great uniter. I know it would be a stretch. But there is a first time for everything

[Krom]

We didn't deny that they happened, we just denied that they were all exclusively the evil dictator Obama's fault and had nothing at all to do with the GOP holding the nation hostage unless Obama does the legislative equivalent of murdering his first born child... If someone demanded you murder your own first born or they would shut down your business, would you? Even if they said you only had to murder your child just a little bit? Be realistic here, what the GOP wants is totally insane.

[callmeslick]

Ya I run a multi million dollar a year buisness. I have no idea about economics

well, you yourself have admitted to a lousy profit margin and unwillingness of new employees to work for you, so I'm not looking to you for ALL the answers.

[callmeslick]

So you dismiss the man and not the points

You do open yourself to that attack whenever you just make a large copy and paste of someone else. It's unfair to ask people to spend an enormous amount of time fact-checking a large quote when you only took ten seconds to paste it. If you write a paragraph or two in your own words that includes sources as appropriate, you're more likely to get some bites.

agreed, and given Beck's track record of blatant untruth, which HAS been quite well documented, there is no reason to bother. If the points are legitimate, another credible source would make them. Speaking of spreading BS, I note that Beck and Rush spent all yesterday extolling a Trucker's Rally which was never really going to happen anyway.

[CUDA]

Ya I run a multi million dollar a year buisness. I have no idea about economics

well, you yourself have admitted to a lousy profit margin and unwillingness of new employees to work for you, so I'm not looking to you for ALL the answers.

Yep but I have a surplus of cash, unlike someone like say the federal government for example

[callmeslick]

and, I'll bet no one ever comes along to slash your revenues below budgeted costs, either, huh?

[CUDA]

We didn't deny that they happened, we just denied that they were all exclusively the evil dictator Obama's fault and had nothing at all to do with the GOP holding the nation hostage unless Obama does the legislative equivalent of murdering his first born child... If someone demanded you murder your own first born or they would shut down your business, would you? Even if they said you only had to murder your child just a little bit? Be realistic here, what the GOP wants is totally insane.

you didnt deny it because you hid from it. You havent said ANYTHING about it at all. So answer the question. WHY did they choose it INTENTIONALLY to make it more painful. So to paraphrase your own words, what the Spite house is doing is totally insane

[CUDA]

and, I'll bet no one ever comes along to slash your revenues below budgeted costs, either, huh?

Sure have. And ya know what? I still made a profit because I cut expenses.

And your background in economic and business management is?

[CUDA]

And now our government wont pay the death benefits to our military. Something that the president could resolve with the stroke of a pen. Spite House strikes again

[Spidey]

Actually I checked, the profit margin CUDA cited is typical of his business, and in fact on the high side.

[CUDA]

Actually I checked, the profit margin CUDA cited is typical of his business, and in fact on the high side.

SHHHHHHH we wouldn't want slick to thing I knew something about running a business and making a budget

and Toyota seems to think so also since I'm in the running for Toyota Collision Center of the year.

[vision]

SHHHHHHH we wouldn't want slick to thing I knew something about running a business and making a budget

Seems like your budgeting for the wrong things when you make statements like this:

[I'm] trying to run and grow a business and this is killing me. I currently have 5 openings that need filled and I'm having to wear so many hats and am putting in so many hours that I came home the other day to my wife in tears. She's afraid I'm going to kill myself. literally. And I'm not sure she isnt right. Not sure how much longer I can keep up this pace. I'm almost 53. I shouldnt have to be working this hard.

Or maybe it's just your management style. You'll never know because, looking at that post of yours, you externalize everything. "I'm having a hard time. Must be Obama!"

[CUDA]

and you know about business HOW?

[CUDA]

I also find it interesting how you've STILL ignored what Washington is doing and switched your attack towards me. cant defend the indefensible huh

[CUDA]

Don't recreate

According to the Eagle-Tribune newspaper of North Andover, Maine, tourist Pat Vaillancourt said National Park Service Guards held her tour group under armed guard in a Yellowstone National Park hotel and brusquely told tourists who had filed off their bus to take pictures of bison that they weren't to "recreate."

The tour guide argued to rangers that the tourists -- some of them from overseas -- weren't "recreating," just taking pictures.

"She responded and said, 'Sir, you are recreating,' and her tone became very aggressive," the newspaper quoted Vaillancourt as saying.

A message to the park's media relations office, which is only intermittently staffed because of the furlough, was not immediately returned Wednesday.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/09/us/govern ... ?hpt=hp_t1

another example

watch out for the No Fun Police

[Will Robinson]

Obama could easily disown and stop the government's use of selective shutdown and thug's with badges tactics...if he wanted to. If he disagreed with it. He doesn't though. Partly because he isn't made to bear the responsibility for it in the media. Yet.

If enough momentum is built behind showing the general public what is being done.....arresting Vets for standing in the park....Obama saying his golf course is kept open because it is privately run yet he is closing privately run locations left and right...all that stuff. At some point it can come to the top of public discourse and when it does, in spite of the mainstream media attempt to turn a blind camera to it and focus on republicans starving babies, it will be Obama's heavy handed tactics to own. He IS the government in charge of physically bullying people just like he is the guy who is snooping into their emails etc. If the general consensus becomes that which finds these thugs offensive the media wont be able to insulate him from it any more. It will immediately become 'what he did'.

I don't know if he will let it go on long enough to take the hit but I get a feeling it is starting to turn back on him already. the Repubs might be are relatively useless political bastards just like the Dems are but creatures like that are cowards and the Repubs don't seem to be afraid of the mainstream medias assault of 'polls' and selective reporting which makes me think they are doing damage to Obama. Boehner especially would be caving in long before now if he didn't have reason to believe Obama is either going to take a hit or concede some Obamacare prize the Repubs can hold up as justification for doing all this.

[callmeslick]

Will zips off into delusion-land, fueled by a right wing lie machine. Whee!!!

[CUDA]

Will zips off into delusion-land, fueled by a right wing lie machine. Whee!!!

Still wont attempt to defend OR even comment about the acts of this administration huh. WHEEEEE

[callmeslick]

the 'acts of the administration' are(as can be found readily enough if you cared to understand, rather than whine and hate) determined largely by an archaic law which states, in essence, that without appropriation authority, NO NEW EXPENSE can be incurred, with the sole exception being for national emergency. Thus, standing budgeted items such as Social Security and Medicare can go forward. Things which are, in sum, TOTALLY paid for out of private money can go forward(Pres Golf course). Congressional and Judicial and Administration salaries get paid. However, any sum, however little, that is not pre-scripted, is forbidden and the penalty is that of a Federal Felony. What IS and ISN'T so defined is really, really hard to determine, but, as one can imagine, given the toxic environment, the LAST thing the Administration officials want to do is risk a legal issue around felonies and jail time for a misstep. Hence, they tend to overdo matters. Some stuff, like the sorry crap around death bennies for KIA troops, is very clear cut: that is an unbudgetted new expense. Other stuff, like around parks, is certainly less clear.

The bottom line is that somewhere along the way, more people than apparently do should start to realize that government serves us all in a positive fashion, and despite inperfections, is a positive for the nation. Whether this happens, I'm not sure.....some of you sure don't give me hope.

On a tangental, but related note worth study, remember California? You know, the state that was always on the verge of default, failing services etc. Suddenly, a few years into having a Dem governor, and legislature, what do we see? No debt issues, state services running smoothly, huge support from the public being served, costs of governance and efficiency of the service all at the best levels in decades. Hmmmmmmmm. Where did Arnold fall short?

[Will Robinson]

...costs of governance and efficiency of the service all at the best levels in decades. Hmmmmmmmm. Where did Arnold fall short?

Costs at best levels?!? That governor you are talking about is scrambling to get those lib legislators to reign in their spending right now! As soon as the revenue rolled in to get them above water they all started talking up spending more and more! Meanwhile the new taxes are causing a migration of money out of the state...
So, are you like the libs out there? Having some premature celebration problems?

[vision]

and you know about business HOW?

By owning my own business, just like you. Also, by working in management most of my life. You tend to pick a few things up here and there.

I also find it interesting how you've STILL ignored what Washington is doing and switched your attack towards me. cant defend the indefensible huh

I see the same stuff Will has done, posting a handful of articles from partisan rags with questionable sources then extrapolating that into some liberal anti-government conspiracy. You guys are hopelessly locked into the propaganda machine. All these cases of exaggerated intimidation by Obama's gestapo. Ridiculous.

Here is the deal folks: the park is closed. End of story. It's no different than when the local park in your neighborhood closes at sunset. You can't go in at night and play on the swing set after dark. And when the cops come and tell you to get off the swing set and go home you can't complain to them about your tax dollars and whatnot because they don't care, they are just doing their job. Rules are rules. Don't like the rules for closing government owned land even when shared by private business? Get involved and have them changed.

[callmeslick]

and you know about business HOW?

By owning my own business, just like you. Also, by working in management most of my life. You tend to pick a few things up here and there.

well, you have a leg up on CUDA. He manages a business owned by others.

I also find it interesting how you've STILL ignored what Washington is doing and switched your attack towards me. cant defend the indefensible huh

I see the same stuff Will has done, posting a handful of articles from partisan rags with questionable sources then extrapolating that into some liberal anti-government conspiracy. You guys are hopelessly locked into the propaganda machine. All these cases of exaggerated intimidation by Obama's gestapo. Ridiculous.

Here is the deal folks: the park is closed. End of story. It's no different than when the local park in your neighborhood closes at sunset. You can't go in at night and play on the swing set after dark. And when the cops come and tell you to get off the swing set and go home you can't complain to them about your tax dollars and whatnot because they don't care, they are just doing their job. Rules are rules. Don't like the rules for closing government owned land even when shared by private business? Get involved and have them changed.

and, as I noted above, the rules by which this closure are ruled date back to the 1800's and are very difficult to negotiate.

[callmeslick]

...costs of governance and efficiency of the service all at the best levels in decades. Hmmmmmmmm. Where did Arnold fall short?

Costs at best levels?!? That governor you are talking about is scrambling to get those lib legislators to reign in their spending right now! As soon as the revenue rolled in to get them above water they all started talking up spending more and more! Meanwhile the new taxes are causing a migration of money out of the state...
So, are you like the libs out there? Having some premature celebration problems?

the fantasy machine rolls on.

[Krom]

you didnt deny it because you hid from it. You havent said ANYTHING about it at all. So answer the question. WHY did they choose it INTENTIONALLY to make it more painful.

This business you run CUDA, do you perhaps sell steaming piles of bull★■◆●? Because that is what you are peddling here. From what I have seen on the news and online; the only people who are claiming this is done purely to "make it more painful" are the republicans and other extremist right wing sources. So basically to answer your question: "That is a steaming pile of bull★■◆●."

[callmeslick]

If there is no morally defenseable point within one's position, one is forced to 'peddle steaming piles of ★■◆●'. And, that's pretty much where the extreme right is at, for a while now.......

[flip]

“It’s a cheap way to deal with the situation,” an angry Park Service ranger in Washington says of the harassment. “We’ve been told to make life as difficult for people as we can. It’s disgusting.”

It's an un-named Park Ranger that said it.

[Spidey]

Poor Boo-Boo...

[Sergeant Thorne]

and you know about business HOW?

By owning my own business, just like you. Also, by working in management most of my life. You tend to pick a few things up here and there.

well, you have a leg up on CUDA. He manages a business owned by others.

To be fair, who has a leg-up on who may depend on what kind of businesses we're talking about.

Krom, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I would have to ask, if you don't think they're going out of their way to make the shutdown acutely negative in the minds of the public, what do you make of occurrences such as closing off parking for Mt. Rushmore? Denial can get your almost anywhere, and I realize that these places require a modicum of up-keep, but what's the difference between using resources to police and using resources to sweep up (or just not sweating it for a month)? Something's wrong there.

[CUDA]

and you know about business HOW?

By owning my own business, just like you. Also, by working in management most of my life. You tend to pick a few things up here and there.

well, you have a leg up on CUDA. He manages a business owned by others.

Still have no clue what you're talking about do you??? I owned my own business for 17 years, then I chose to get rid of the headache of it and manage a business for someone else. way to ASS-ume there slickster.

[Will Robinson]

...costs of governance and efficiency of the service all at the best levels in decades. Hmmmmmmmm. Where did Arnold fall short?

Costs at best levels?!? That governor you are talking about is scrambling to get those lib legislators to reign in their spending right now! As soon as the revenue rolled in to get them above water they all started talking up spending more and more! Meanwhile the new taxes are causing a migration of money out of the state...
So, are you like the libs out there? Having some premature celebration problems?

the fantasy machine rolls on.

You are really pathetic or shameless. I'm not sure which. And really, other than ones mother, who would want to bother to know which it is!

You say services are running better....Reality disagrees with you...

The survey represented the most in-depth look yet of how California courts are faring with less money and suggested that the effect of the cuts is growing. California's courts have lost about 65% of their general fund support from the state during the last five years, and Gov. Jerry Brown's proposed budget does not restore any of the lost revenue. Presiding judges told the committee that the loss of revenue has affected everything from small claims to child custody disputes.

In San Francisco, paying a traffic ticket can now take up to four hours, and filing a lawsuit can consume nearly three hours, the report said. In Sacramento, window services have been slashed by more than 75%, prompting fights in lines, according to the committee.

Getting a trial in a traffic matter in San Diego requires at least a five-month wait, the survey found, and court closures have forced some San Bernardino residents to drive up to 175 miles one way to attend to a legal matter. Record-filing has slowed across many counties and created backlogs, the report said.

At least 53 courthouses have closed, and eight more are slated to shut their doors in Los Angeles County. Courts in 20 counties are closed for at least one day a month, according to the report.

The waiting time for mediation in child custody disputes has risen in at least 19 counties. In Stanislaus County, parents have to wait up to 17 weeks for a mediator, the report said. Counties also have cut the time provided for small claims disputes or eliminated hearings altogether.

Eleven counties told the committee they no longer are able to process domestic violence restraining orders the same day they are filed, and 38 counties have reduced self-help services for litigants without lawyers.

"Delay is pernicious," an unnamed Los Angeles court official said in the report. "It takes hold incrementally. Only after months or years of waiting will one litigant at a time realize how the system has failed."

An Inyo County court official said the court was "providing services based upon the tyranny of the urgent."

From here: http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/09 ... s-20130410

I say he is fighting liberals there who want to spend more....you mock me with nothing to back up your taunts.

From Brown now heads into a month of budget negotiations with state legislators, who have already hinted they’d like to see more spending. Of course, as Brown has reminded lawmakers, he must approve any final budget.

From here: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... et-surplus

I challenge your assertion that things are running smoother than they have in decades....you offer ridicule...and nothing to back it up.

Here

The state prison system, which is fighting court orders to improve medical care or reduce its number of inmates, won’t get more money, either.

You don't think tax policy is hurting California? Here:

Meantime, a new economic forecast by UCLA's Anderson School of Management indicates that the state's job growth is slowing. Its manufacturing base, which has traditionally provided employment for low-skilled workers, continues to erode. Two culprits are high taxes and energy costs, which will only increase thanks to a menu of green mandates that will kick into high gear in 2015.

From here : http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 55960.html


Basically you pull statements out of your ass and make declarations based on fantasy and then have the balls to project your tactics on to me.

I'm going with both, pathetic and shameless.

[Tunnelcat]

Go out and ask a sampling of African Americans what they think. I have and most of them tell me they think racism is driving all this anti-Obama rhetoric and vitriol, most of it absolutely absurd if you just listen to some of it.

Unfortunately TC- many black Americans themselves are amongst the most racist groups in the country- AND it is now CULTURALLY ACCEPTABLE for them to be racist.

There is no such thing as 'reverse racism.' It is racism pure and simple.

That Obama is the worst president ever in the history of the country has little to do with his race. It is his radical leftist agenda, hubris and belief that the presidency is a de facto monarchy by executive order that makes him so.

TC uses no logic to come to the conclusions she jumps at.

What Will, TB and CUDA do when faced with the ugly and obvious truth.

[callmeslick]

and you know about business HOW?

By owning my own business, just like you. Also, by working in management most of my life. You tend to pick a few things up here and there.

well, you have a leg up on CUDA. He manages a business owned by others.

Still have no clue what you're talking about do you??? I owned my own business for 17 years, then I chose to get rid of the headache of it and manage a business for someone else. way to ASS-ume there slickster.

I stand corrected.....I did know that part, at one time.

[callmeslick]

bottom line, Will: CA was on the verge of default and unable to agree on budgets. Now they are not. Also, you provide little or no evidence that 'jobs are fleeing' the state. Finally, every state has problems to work through and California is no different. It should, however, be blatantly obvious that somehow, the Dems managed to turn things around, right?

[woodchip]

I'm sure the new Demoscammer tax collection policies like this will entice loads of business's to stat:

"Now California is even taxing backwards in time, deciding to demand more money from entrepreneurs, investors, and businesses for past years. It claims a tax break used by them is no longer valid, and it wants them to pay up, even for the last five years.

Anderson said California is telling people like him, "Now you guys owe us taxes going back five years ago, and we want interest on those taxes as well."