[Split] On perceptions in Russia

[flip]

Fact of the matter is, when the Cold War supposedly ended, all the anti USSR/Russia propaganda in the US all but died. Hence, The Soviet Union became a distant memory to people like me and nowhere near the radar of the younger generations. I hope that changes soon though because it's obvious propaganda against US is very strong still in Russian Media and citizenry.

[Isaac]

Good point TC.

Flip. Hahah, to be fair, movies and games still show Russians as the bad guys, but it's not as bad as it used to be; there are good Russian police in some movies, like Mission Impossible. And it's not U.S. Gov propaganda, since it's not produced at the request of the U.S. Gov. So, it's really not the same thing as Russian or North Korean propaganda, since their governments have a hand in every company within their jurisdiction.

[Tunnelcat]

Russia could learn a few things from the mistakes that Germany AND Japan made in the 1930's and the resulting world war that followed. Nationalistic pride can be fatal. The same thing could apply to the U.S. and it's government's actions at present as well.

[flip]

Yeah, I think the last good one was Red Dawn . Before and up until Red Dawn, most movies had some kind of anti-communist element to them. Starting early 90's, the bad guy mostly became terrorists and maybe the rogue Russian that went off the chain, but generally most accepted the 'collapse and ruin' of the Soviet Union, so they and their communist views were no longer considered a threat. Therefore our media had to invent another viable bad guy.

[Isaac]

TC, Russia is slowly becoming more accepting, but I don't think I could live there, unless...
Sigma!!! If I live in Russia would they let me keep my 357 magnum revolver?
yeah, flip, now we have terrorists as the bad guys

[Tunnelcat]

Probably not. But you wouldn't be able to keep it in Britain either.

[Foil]

I find it interesting that you guys think anti-Russian propaganda is gone. It's not as strong as it once was, but I've been noticing a return to the use of Russia as the villian. Now that I think about it, of the last four (recent!) action/thriller films I've seen, two of them had Russians as the villains. Same with the last two action/spy TV episodes I saw this week.

The major villain in western film/TV seems to be China nowadays, but Russian villains are still pretty popular.

[flip]

I noticed that too. Yeah, it's making a resurgence again. That's probably indicative of the real nature of the US/Russian relationship. The honeymoon is over

[callmeslick]

Probably not. But you wouldn't be able to keep it in Britain either.

or most of the rest of the civilized world.

[Isaac]

Probably not. But you wouldn't be able to keep it in Britain either.

Yeah, the Brits would also put you in jail for shooting an intruder, breaking into your home.

Probably not. But you wouldn't be able to keep it in Britain either.

or most of the rest of the civilized world.

You got to be joking right?

[flip]

Let me clarify I guess. I don't mean gone as non-existent, but it was nearly so. You wouldn't know the difference unless you watch movies 30 years old or older. I know from the whole time I was growing up, until early 90's, most if not all war films were US against communism. Or opening old wounds like Vietnam and Korea. I think Steven Seagull can probably be blamed for most of it

[Tunnelcat]

Probably not. But you wouldn't be able to keep it in Britain either.

Yeah, the Brits would also put you in jail for shooting an intruder, breaking into your home.

Why I don't live in Britain.

[flip]

Hehe, Slick thinks we are the less civilized The most civilized usually carry the least restraints Britain and the other 'civilized' are zoo's. Won't be long they'll be darting people to give them their required immunization.

[sigma]

The difference between Russia and America is profound in one way. America is made up of immigrants from all over the world. We had to learn to tolerate peoples of differing nationalities and races to actually form this country. We failed miserably at times in the past and we still show our intolerance today. But in the long run, we eventually meld together and create a new whole that tends to be more tolerant of those who are different and more forward looking to new ideas and peoples today. Russia is an old established country. Not that that's a bad thing, but the majority of people in Russia are composed of inhabitants that were born and raised within your country, with the accompanying nationalism, nationalistic pride and insular thinking that goes along with it. Sure, you've had your share of immigrants move in, but the main population of your country was not formed by the immigrants who moved there later on. That insular nationalism can be a big flaw when dealing with different nations with different attitudes.

It is strange to hear such a view, while Russia is home to 180 different nations and more than 200 different nationalities.
What is wrong is that the Russian attempt to save the basis of behavior and traditions is Russian traditions and rules of conduct in Russia ? The people of Russian nationality is very peaceful and patient people . We kindly treat all new migrants , regardless of their nationality and religion. But when visiting our country migrants begin to dictate and impose by force indigenous Russian foreign to our rules of conduct , such as the British, Americans , radical Muslims , we can not allow this to happen. As can be seen, the U.S. and its puppet of the European Union use the concept of " tolerance " only as a way to destabilize the situation in Russia . It is only the blind can not see .
Also, I do not understand why patriotism of Russia , the Americans called nationalism ?
I repeat, the majority of Russian people do not like model of American society. We want to live as we like . If the United States will continue to aggressively treat Russia , then you know what will happens. We will be forced to defend their identity and their territory...

[Tunnelcat]

What I'm getting at is that your country is very mature and aged, far older than our approximately younger 250 years. Also, your country formed by the expansionism of it's borders outward from a main starting point by it's previous sets of rulers. Our country was formed by the willing immigration of large numbers of different peoples from varied and different nations. I think that detail created a very different mindset between our peoples BECAUSE of the origins of our peoples. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it just makes us think differently about our respective countries.

[sigma]

What I'm getting at is that your country is very mature and aged, far older than our approximately younger 250 years. Also, your country formed by the expansionism of it's borders outward from a main starting point by it's previous sets of rulers. Our country was formed by the willing immigration of large numbers of different peoples from varied and different nations. I think that detail created a very different mindset between our peoples BECAUSE of the origins of our peoples. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it just makes us think differently about our respective countries.

I believe that the American version of the evolution of society has proven to be ineffective. U.S. too overestimating their abilities and makes a lot of mistakes because of its sense of exclusivity.

[flip]

I'm not sure the European Union can be described as US puppet. Considering after many years, they declined to ally themselves with US over Syria and Britain and China are talking about a new currency agreement. Maybe their affections have waned over the years. Except France, who has always and forever been a constant friend in need.

[Tunnelcat]

What I'm getting at is that your country is very mature and aged, far older than our approximately younger 250 years. Also, your country formed by the expansionism of it's borders outward from a main starting point by it's previous sets of rulers. Our country was formed by the willing immigration of large numbers of different peoples from varied and different nations. I think that detail created a very different mindset between our peoples BECAUSE of the origins of our peoples. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it just makes us think differently about our respective countries.

I believe that the American version of the evolution of society has proven to be ineffective.

In what way? We tend to be very adaptable to change, integrating new ways and in the creation of new ideas. I think that's very effective.

U.S. too overestimating their abilities and makes a lot of mistakes because of its sense of exclusivity.

I can't argue with you there. Americans do tend to have an overblown sense of self importance.

[Isaac]

I believe that the American version of the evolution of society has proven to be ineffective.

Uh our society is why we're the greatest country on earth.

Here's your problem: You're confusing the U.S. government with its people. Admit it. You love Americans. You just hate our government, like normal Americans do.

[Tunnelcat]

The problem is, the Russians don't think their government can do anything wrong. Just look at the terrorist weapon of choice that's so ubiquitous and plentiful, it's shape is recognizable around the world. You don't see M-16's in large numbers in terrorist's hands.

[Isaac]

Yeah, do you have any idea how many Americans own AK-47s? They're good guns. I'm going to try one on Saturday, fully automatic.

[callmeslick]

I believe that the American version of the evolution of society has proven to be ineffective. U.S. too overestimating their abilities and makes a lot of mistakes because of its sense of exclusivity.

no society is perfect, but who are you, given your nation's history, to be casting aspersions on any other nation?

[Spidey]

Government propaganda against Russia has stopped…Hollywood hasn’t got an original bone in it’s body.

Just look at all of the remakes.

[Tunnelcat]

Yeah, do you have any idea how many Americans own AK-47s? They're good guns. I'm going to try one on Saturday, fully automatic.

That wasn't my point, although it is a cool gun, even if it is a little inaccurate. My point was that Russia has been supplying the world's terrorists with AK 47's and self-propelled grenades in droves. I don't see that as a peaceful, and stable way to make world foreign policy.

[Isaac]

Yeah, and we're probably their number one client.

[Krom]

Yeah TC, the reason you don't see terrorists with a M-16 is because it would jam. The AK-47 is poor by comparison as far as ballistics go, but it'll still shoot in some of the worst conditions you could put a gun through. Basically the M-16 is light and accurate, making it highly effective, but it requires good maintenance to be reliable. The AK-47 on the other hand may not be as accurate, but it will continue to fire even if you have not cleaned or oiled it, buried it in the desert for years, then dropped it into a vat of mud, loaded it with the wrong ammunition and the barrel is glowing red hot.

Basically the Americans made a very good and balanced gun while the Russians made something that is as close to a guarantee to shoot bullets in the general direction you want as is physically possible.

/derail

[Sergeant Thorne]

I believe that the American version of the evolution of society has proven to be ineffective. U.S. too overestimating their abilities and makes a lot of mistakes because of its sense of exclusivity.

no society is perfect, but who are you, given your nation's history, to be casting aspersions on any other nation?

I don't know. As an American I think he's mostly right. Sometimes it helps to have an outside assessment, despite the possible shortcomings of the source of that assessment. I don't think it's wrong to think that Individual Liberties, government of the people, by the people, and for the people is superior to other things going, but to maintain a false sense of superiority in the face of failures to execute, adhere to, or be driven by superior ideals is wrong, and I think that's where a lot of the U.S. is at. I don't think the American government makes as many "mistakes" as the American people, in the face of this baseless pride. I'm pretty sure the American government's actions are calculated.

I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, Krom, because I don't own either, but the M-16 was designed to be reliable in harsh environments. You just have to get a quality M-16. This is what I've heard, anyway. The big difference between the rifles is that the AK-47 rounds are a lot heavier, and hit harder. M-16 rounds are only effective on human targets because the .22-sized bullets tumble on impact, inflicting more damage than you would typically get from a .22 round.

[Krom]

I'm no expert either and I'm exaggerating a little bit. (Note that the original M-16 was in fact notoriously unreliable, so bad there was even a congressional investigation on it, however the majority of the outstanding issues were resolved in the M-16A1 revision which is considerably better.)

But from what I've seen online and on various nerdy TV shows there is a difference between being designed to be reliable in harsh environments and designed to be reliable 80 years after the apocalypse. The impression I have gotten is that all the cleaning an AK-47 needs to fire in most cases is to hit it with your fist a couple times and then shake it out, its poor accuracy is because of the relatively huge tolerances it was manufactured with.

However I suspect the main reason the AK-47 is the "terrorist" small arms of choice has little to do with the larger rounds (its about velocity not weight) or because it is a Russian designed gun. Instead it probably has pretty much everything to do with economics: specifically there have been 100 million AK-47s manufactured compared to 8 million M-16s, and the AK-47 also costs less than a quarter of the price of a M-16 (~$155 vs $673).

[flip]

Not exaggerating by much. The AK-47 is the perfect weapon for what is was designed to do. Spit lead reliably and a bunch of it.

EDIT: I'm real suspicious of those numbers. I'm nowhere near current anymore but I'd think the AK is probably going $400-$600 and the M-16 probably $1200-$1600. Lemme go look on gun broker.

[Isaac]

The AK-47 on the other hand may not be as accurate, but it will continue to fire even if you have not cleaned or oiled it, buried it in the desert for years, then dropped it into a vat of mud, loaded it with the wrong ammunition and the barrel is glowing red hot.
/derail

I hear that dirt is the preferred lubricant for cleaning AK-47s.

I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, Krom, because I don't own either, but the M-16 was designed to be reliable in harsh environments.

Two words: Dust Cover.

There's a reason the M-16 needs one.

And no, an AK top/dust cover is not the same thing at all.

[Top Gun]

That does seem like the Russian way as far as technology goes: it's kind of clunky and doesn't look very pretty, but by God it keeps working way longer than it theoretically should. See also: their space program.

[Isaac]

Top Gun, I love the AK, but is Russia better at war? Historically? Yes, but it's not 1980 any more. We're in the age of drone strikes. What does Russia have against our robot army? My point is, the AK47 is a great gun, but is it relevant in a stealth drone war? At best the AK is a good civilian or police weapon.

[MidiV]

In the same post you say black people are good enough to hold managerial positions, but can't say if they're as smart as native Russians... You say it's a "It's a very questionable point", and you "won't argue on that". It's not questionable. It's just **** wrong because they're also humans.

I'm agree with that! Every man and woman has equal potential, unfortunately, not everyone uses it even on 60% and develops himself/herself. That's all, it's not about black/white/etc, it's more about self-awareness and overall 'mood' and tendencies in surrounding society. If you have intentions to do something you will find your way to do it in spite of everything.

The problem is, the Russians don't think their government can do anything wrong

No, we think so. Lot of things are going terribly wrong. Problems are much deeper and there is tremendous distance between 'goverment' and ordinary people - first just live in their own 'state within a state' and tension constantly grows.

[Isaac]

Lot of things are going terribly wrong. Problems are much deeper and there is tremendous distance between 'goverment' and ordinary people

And you don't think the same happens in the U.S.?

[MidiV]

Well, I'm not a politologist. Since i'm not frequent traveller to U.S. and most of information is coming from mass-media (and it's lame to trust every article etc) i can't say for sure yes or no. But i think that in a one way or another we can find some common problems that exist in our countries and of course each country has its own troubles and issues.

[Krom]

I think if you were to take a walk in a town in America, and then take a walk in a town in Russia, you would probably find that on the ground things are pretty much the same at both places. Things are probably so similar actually, that if there were no language differences you probably wouldn't be able to easily tell them apart. People who think things are radically different have been taken in by the propaganda.

Note this is just an educated guess because I have traveled to a couple other continents in my lifetime, and what I have seen in different countries is pretty much all the same stuff just with different languages written on it. I haven't actually been to Russia, but I don't really expect it would be that different from any other country I have been to, which so far I haven't seen anything that radically different from any other place you can find in America.

[Isaac]

Until you try to go online and find three fourths of the sites are blocked by Vladimir Pudding

[Tunnelcat]

However I suspect the main reason the AK-47 is the "terrorist" small arms of choice has little to do with the larger rounds (its about velocity not weight) or because it is a Russian designed gun. Instead it probably has pretty much everything to do with economics: specifically there have been 100 million AK-47s manufactured compared to 8 million M-16s, and the AK-47 also costs less than a quarter of the price of a M-16 (~$155 vs $673).

But WHY sell so many of the things to so many bad people? It seems counterproductive to any nation state.

As for walking around Russia, how much of the old Soviet ugly, utilitarian grayness in building design still around? It's more depressing looking than an American public housing project.

[Krom]

You sell 100 million of anything and it is probably going to end up in the hands of a few "bad people", besides, it isn't like only the Russians exclusively manufacture the AK-47. It is a Russian design, but it was designed to be cheap, reliable and easy to manufacture, so just about any arms manufacturer can build and sell one. Hell, you could probably even buy AK-47 kits that are "Made in America".

[Spidey]

Made in America…..errrrr China….