The Real Racists

[woodchip]

Can you explain how the racism of the past is benefiting me and NOT the black family down the block that works hard and excels? How can the racism of the PAST tell the difference?

...do we seriously need to go over racial privilege again? I know we've done it before.

Like there are no poor whites living in inner city neighborhoods.

[callmeslick]

you could, TG, and they still wouldn't grasp it. Sort of the same line of logic that says, "it's cold outside, so there must be no global warming". "There are black people doing as well as me or far better, so racism must be no longer an issue that holds people back" There's a name for such logic, and it involves bulls and fecal material.....


oh, and Thorne, what does THAT little tidbit prove, past the thinking I illustrate above?

[woodchip]

Perhaps slick if your black leaders keep telling you that you can use the excuse that white folk like you are holding them back. That it is perfectly acceptable to have "The Man" give you welfare for the rest of your life. Perhaps if the tone changed to "Make something of yourself" instead of "Take something for yourself" we would see the real capabilities of our fellow citizens. Of course slick, you don't want any real dialog as it might turn a lot black Americans into conservatives.

[Spidey]

Can you explain how the racism of the past is benefiting me and NOT the black family down the block that works hard and excels? How can the racism of the PAST tell the difference?

...do we seriously need to go over racial privilege again? I know we've done it before.

Maybe you should understand the idea that not everyone buys into the notion that if you don’t have a disparity, that implies you are privileged.

[Top Gun]

Maybe you should understand that if you don't to any degree, you're being willfully blind.

[Spidey]

Well it’s what the term implies that I take offence to, I will never try and say that being black is a not a disadvantage in this society, at the same time I will never accept the notion that I am where I am because I am white.

[CUDA]

Well it’s what the term implies that I take offence to, I will never try and say that being black is a not a disadvantage in this society, at the same time I will never accept the notion that I am where I am because I am white.

agreed. I have worked hard to get where I'm at. 60-70 hours a week. Many times skipping lunch. What I have I have DAMN sure earned.

[Sergeant Thorne]

It looks like everyone missed my point. Slick suggested that past racism benefits the white individual in the present. What I was saying is that if the racism is in the past, how is it that it's effects only target black folks in the present? Yeah our society may have been built on the backs of black people at some point, but at this point everyone benefits from what we HAVE. What slick said doesn't make any sense.

[CUDA]

What slick said doesn't make any sense.

It usually doesn't

[Top Gun]

It looks like everyone missed my point. Slick suggested that past racism benefits the white individual in the present. What I was saying is that if the racism is in the past, how is it that it's effects only target black folks in the present? Yeah our society may have been built on the backs of black people at some point, but at this point everyone benefits from what we HAVE. What slick said doesn't make any sense.

It really isn't that complicated...hell, given the day, I'll even use a football analogy. Given how this country's history of opportunity has played out, whites received a punt and got a huge runback, so their quarterback took over just shy of midfield. Meanwhile, the black return guy got pinned inside his own 10-yard line by a great punt. Over a long period of time after that, white people were able to move the ball well and got down to the redzone, whereas blacks only made it to their own 40. So even if you want to say that both teams are moving at the same speed today, over the previous decades one team managed a 40-yard head start over the other, and so they're obviously much closer to the endzone.

Again, this doesn't come down to individual examples. There are plenty of successful African-American individuals who have worked their way up from very little, just as many white people have, and there are also plenty of white people who remain very disadvantaged. But if you look across a broad spectrum of statistics--everything from median income to incarceration rates to education quality to life expectancy--African-Americans experience some significant starting disadvantages on average, most of which are the legacy of decades of institutionalized racial discrimination. Everything else aside, just by the sheer luck of being born white, you and I have all sorts of little everyday issues that we'll never even notice, because they'll never happen to us.

[Will Robinson]

Are all white people of today indebted to black people of today for the effects of slavery committed by some white people 150+ years ago?
If so please describe how the debt is calculated. What is the payment due? Will there be deductions for descendants of anti-slavery families? Lol

This 'white privilege' thing is a slippery slope if you are going to hold it out as a wrong that needs to be corrected. Aren't whatever conditions white people enjoy simply the same conditions that all people in America should have access to if we are truly pursuing equality?

In fact it isn't privilege at all!
It is merely the absence of oppression or oppressions residue that white people enjoy.
And isn't it impossible to balance the resulting disparities of past oppression by punishing future generations for their ancestors culture?

So really all you have established is perpetual undefined, and thus unrepayable, debt and perpetual strife!
Way to go.....*if*... you are one who gains something from this fire you are fueling you are winning!
Like the Ayatollahs 'protecting' the Palestinians are!

[vision]

And isn't it impossible to balance the resulting disparities of past oppression by punishing future generations for their ancestors culture?

This is the ★■◆● that drives me crazy. Raising oppressed people up is not a punishment to the advantaged. It benefits everyone. And as TG said, most whites will never understand how privileged they are. Jesus Christ, the civil rights movement happened in our lifetimes, not 150 years ago. Even if you disagree with the notion of privilege, the statistics are there showing otherwise. We don't have oppression written into the laws, but that doesn't mean oppressors don't exist. And an "oppressor" doesn't have to be a person, it is more often an intangible cultural artifact. We need to do what we can to root them out.

[Top Gun]

ITT Will reads insinuations into posts that he really really wants to see there, even if they don't exist. Film at 11.

[woodchip]

This is the ★■◆● that drives me crazy. Raising oppressed people up is not a punishment to the advantaged. It benefits everyone. And as TG said, most whites will never understand how privileged they are. Jesus Christ, the civil rights movement happened in our lifetimes, not 150 years ago. Even if you disagree with the notion of privilege, the statistics are there showing otherwise. We don't have oppression written into the laws, but that doesn't mean oppressors don't exist. And an "oppressor" doesn't have to be a person, it is more often an intangible cultural artifact. We need to do what we can to root them out.

The crap you post vision drives me crazy also. Lets take a look at groups of peoples that were oppressed at one time:

The American Indian. Perhaps the most oppressed people this country has ever known. Hunted down like animals, forced into trails of tears, given disease ridden blankets to thin their ranks, locked up on reservation and to this day still controlled by the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Chinese Americans. Imported to the US by the hundreds of thousand as no more than slave labor.

Irish Americans. Fled to America after the Potato Famine and looked down upon as nothing more than Green Niggers (Mainly in US cities with large Irish populations. Used to denote the Irish, who many hold in the same regard as blacks.) http://www.rsdb.org/search?q=irish

Eastern Europeans. Serbs, Albanians, Poles, Jews. All were looked down upon at one time in America.

All these people overcame their stereotypes and today I don't see anyone suggesting they need "special" consideration to get ahead. Perhaps the groups I listed didn't have access to a Rev. Jackson to help perpetuate their plight and , instead, just doggedly went ahead to become accepted. Now tell me again why promoting special privilege status somehow is going to help Afro-Americans? Hasn't helped with how people perceive them. Doesn't remove the stereotypes they live under. Maybe it is time to try a different tack.

[callmeslick]

Perhaps slick if your black leaders keep telling you that you can use the excuse that white folk like you are holding them back. That it is perfectly acceptable to have "The Man" give you welfare for the rest of your life. Perhaps if the tone changed to "Make something of yourself" instead of "Take something for yourself" we would see the real capabilities of our fellow citizens. Of course slick, you don't want any real dialog as it might turn a lot black Americans into conservatives.

I suspect that they aren't any more stupid than most other Americans,so not likely to become 'conservatives'

[callmeslick]

Are all white people of today indebted to black people of today for the effects of slavery committed by some white people 150+ years ago?

yes, to some degree.

If so please describe how the debt is calculated. What is the payment due? Will there be deductions for descendants of anti-slavery families? Lol

maybe a laughing matter to you, but then again, you aren't black, are you?

This 'white privilege' thing is a slippery slope if you are going to hold it out as a wrong that needs to be corrected. Aren't whatever conditions white people enjoy simply the same conditions that all people in America should have access to if we are truly pursuing equality?

that's the ultimate goal, but we aren't there yet, and until we are, there are wrongs that need correcting still.

In fact it isn't privilege at all!
It is merely the absence of oppression or oppressions residue that white people enjoy.
And isn't it impossible to balance the resulting disparities of past oppression by punishing future generations for their ancestors culture?

are you inferring that whites are being 'oppressed'? Seriously? That is taking the whitey whine to a whole new level. Whee!

[woodchip]

As usual slick, nothing to back up what you say.

[callmeslick]

As usual slick, nothing to back up what you say.

except reality. Which, clearly, you aren't on speaking terms with.

[woodchip]

As usual slick, nothing to back up what you say.

except reality. Which, clearly, you aren't on speaking terms with.

Ahhh...another "Can't back up what I say so attack the poster". Getting kinda trite is it not?

[Will Robinson]

Vision and slick need to reread my post and pay attention.
Nowhere do I suggest whites are oppressed.
I said whites don't enjoy a privilege...they enjoy an absence of oppression and oppressions residue effects.

Thus the correction isn't to take away from whites it is to undo any roadblocks that keep nonwhites from escaping the effects of oppression.

If you teach blacks that the whites have something 'extra' (privilege) that doesn't belong to them and then rally them to your flag because you promise them revenge you don't really have anything to offer them! You are exploiting their sensitivities for your own purposes.

That 'extra' that whites have isn't a tangible asset. You can't bust open their door and pick up pieces of 'privilege' and hand it out. The privilege is simple they enjoyed the environment that was built around them, they create a network of customs and like all species they tend to favor those like themselves...that is natural.
There is nothing there that you can seize and redistribute!

So you shouldn't be calling it privilege you should be calling it opportunity and prosperity and ensuring that access to those are equal. It would spur a whole different mentality that the doors are opened or being opened and now it is up to blacks to walk through and build their own networks, make use of the same public systems and develop prosperity.
Instead you create a mentality that blacks need a Robinhood to deliver the goods to them!
You can't give them their great grandfathers blood, sweat and tears back . Sorry. It doesn't work that way. Please stop trying to sell them that line of crap.

There is no true restitution there is only improvement and progress and by definition that takes time. Framing the problem falsely burns a lot of time and only helps those who are purposely misrepresenting the situation, those who benefit from controlling the struggle! Meanwhile all the white people will continue to enjoy the environment while some of the white people take a hand at exploiting the blacks for power. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Another plantation built on the backs of black people...the Democrat Party plantation.

[Spidey]

Are all white people of today indebted to black people of today for the effects of slavery committed by some white people 150+ years ago?

yes, to some degree.

You much more than me.

[Will Robinson]

Are all white people of today indebted to black people of today for the effects of slavery committed by some white people 150+ years ago?

yes, to some degree.

You much more than me.

He won't quantify the debt... and without putting a definitive value it can never be repaid. Thus the victim hood of blacks at the hands of whites will never end. Convenient for the self appointed ayatollahs of social restitution as long as the victims keep praying to the 'right' god in the 'right' temple.

[callmeslick]

Are all white people of today indebted to black people of today for the effects of slavery committed by some white people 150+ years ago?

yes, to some degree.

You much more than me.

you don't, I note, refute my assertion in any way, by making your feeble judgements of 'degree'

[woodchip]

Are all white people of today indebted to black people of today for the effects of slavery committed by some white people 150+ years ago?

yes, to some degree.

You much more than me.

you don't, I note, refute my assertion in any way, by making your feeble judgements of 'degree'

Only ones indebted to blacks are people like you slick whose forbears owned slaves and made fortunes from them.

[Sergeant Thorne]

Well, I think the final result of all of this will be that accounts will never be considered settled until roles are changed up. I don't see how this kind of thinking ever actually leads to equality.

[Spidey]

Are all white people of today indebted to black people of today for the effects of slavery committed by some white people 150+ years ago?

yes, to some degree.

You much more than me.

you don't, I note, refute my assertion in any way, by making your feeble judgements of 'degree'

You said “degree” first, I simply implied you have more to repay than me.

No, I wasn’t trying to refute your assertion, I was simply building on it.

In fact, I’m pretty damn sure my personal debt to the black race is paid in full…unless you believe in some sort of perpetual sin kind of thing.

[Top Gun]

Once again I do enjoy how we got onto the topic of "restitution" when no one even remotely suggested as much.

[Will Robinson]

Once again I do enjoy how we got onto the topic of "restitution" when no one even remotely suggested as much.

It is how many on the left characterize what is needed for equality to take place. Of course that is foolish....but it is a premise they stand on. It is an incentive to temp the disadvantaged to rally to them, etc.

That is why I asked the question: Do white people of today owe a debt to black people of today for the racism of the past?

Slick answered yes but failed to put a number on it. Which of course presents all sorts of problems and those problems illustrate what is wrong with approaching a solution with the goal of collecting a debt!

Not too hard to understand the relevance if you try. And apparently it is easy to try to deflect it if you fear exploring those problems.

[callmeslick]

Only ones indebted to blacks are people like you slick whose forbears owned slaves and made fortunes from them.

utter nonsense.

[callmeslick]

Once again I do enjoy how we got onto the topic of "restitution" when no one even remotely suggested as much.

astounding, huh? The topic was the advantages given to white people TO THE PRESENT DAY, and they turn it to a mere monetary debt.
And no, Will, I did NOT suggest any sort of monetary payback. How the feck can you repay people for essentially barring them from full participation in society for over 250 years? What I said is that the rather OBVIOUS disadvantages carry on to this day, in some circles, and the effects of the past are still affecting people today. No cash value. No mention of 'restititution'. Where someone gets the idea that the 'left' is supportive of 'restitution' is beyond me, as well, but I suppose it might be another of those fairy-tales self-described 'conservatives' tell one another to justify being willfully ignorant.

[woodchip]

Only ones indebted to blacks are people like you slick whose forbears owned slaves and made fortunes from them.

utter nonsense.

Are you saying your fore bearers did not own slaves? Can you prove it?

[Will Robinson]

Once again I do enjoy how we got onto the topic of "restitution" when no one even remotely suggested as much.

astounding, huh? The topic was the advantages given to white people TO THE PRESENT DAY, and they turn it to a mere monetary debt.
And no, Will, I did NOT suggest any sort of monetary payback. How the feck can you repay people for essentially barring them from full participation in society for over 250 years? What I said is that the rather OBVIOUS disadvantages carry on to this day, in some circles, and the effects of the past are still affecting people today. No cash value. No mention of 'restititution'. Where someone gets the idea that the 'left' is supportive of 'restitution' is beyond me, as well, but I suppose it might be another of those fairy-tales self-described 'conservatives' tell one another to justify being willfully ignorant.

First off, you didn't say all that. You merely said that whites of today owe blacks of today for offenses committed by some whites of the past.

I never said it had to be monetary although that is in fact a part of it and always has been. Some forms of restitution I agree with, affirmative action being one.
The measurement of the disparity you cite is done largely in a monetary metric so let's don't pretend there is no dollar sign attached to the goals of the proponents of restitution! That would be a ridiculous position for you to take.

As ridiculous as your assertion that the left isn't supportive of restitution!! But then you often make declarations that are ridiculously untrue.

House Bill HR40, The number 40, by the way, was chosen specifically as a reference to 40 acres and a mule.

Or suing for the dollars owed to slaves. A specious legal argument since by law slaves weren't due any compensation but who has the balls to say that in today's world?

But fear not, now we have learned none of these things exist! The Great and Powerful slick has said so! Lol!

[vision]

The crap you post vision drives me crazy also. Lets take a look at groups of peoples that were oppressed at one time:

The American Indian.

They rose above racism so hard that Native Americans now make up a whopping 0.8% of the population living on 4% of the land, much of which has been throughly irradiated by nuclear testing. Pop quiz: Without using Goggle, name a famous Native American fortune 500 CEO. Actually, you can go ahead and use Google. You'll need all the help you can get.

Chinese Americans.

A trend among young Asians is legally changing their names to something less Asian and more white so they can get accepted into the schools they deserve to based on their test scores. Nope, no racial oppression there...

Irish Americans. Eastern Europeans. Serbs, Albanians, Poles, Jews. All were looked down upon at one time in America.

I can't seem to remember seeing countless pictures of Irish, Serbs, Poles, or Jews being lynched in the early 20th century or stories of them being dragged to death behind automobiles just decades ago. Maybe you can help point me in the right direction? You seem to suggest the racism these groups experienced is comparable to that of African Americans and I would like to know more. Thank you in advance.

Now tell me again why promoting special privilege status somehow is going to help Afro-Americans?

Because the alternative is to continue the suffering of a people vital to the health of America. Our culture is hugely influential on the world. Most of 20th Century music was directly stolen from African Americans (jazz, rock, hip hop) and an enormous percentage of professional athletes are African American. It would be nice if these young men had something to strive for other than being a rapper or a football player. It would be nice if the young women had something to look forward to other than being a single mother. I don't put the blame on them, I want to work with them for a better future. When you take a black kid and put him in the best environment possible you don't get more of the same, you get the current President. Of course, most of you equate the President with Flavor-flav, so this fact is lost on you.

[Spidey]

Stolen isn’t the word I would use regarding music, imitation is the highest of compliments.

Who the hell is Flavor-flav?