Stand your ground stupidity....

[woodchip]

but, if you have one that encourages an open hunting season on black people for anyone with access to a decent defense attorney, you can.

You are really falling into the depths of insanity if you think stand your ground allows open hunting season on blacks. Two cases have come up, one where the latino guy had every right to shoot and the 2nd where the white guy will be in jail for a long time. You also fail to see that blacks have used the same law to protect themselves.

[callmeslick]

but, if you have one that encourages an open hunting season on black people for anyone with access to a decent defense attorney, you can.

You are really falling into the depths of insanity if you think stand your ground allows open hunting season on blacks.

I didn't say that was the intent of the law, nor do I wish to imply that. But, functionally, that is what precedent law is going to head towards, sadly.

Two cases have come up, one where the latino guy had every right to shoot and the 2nd where the white guy will be in jail for a long time. You also fail to see that blacks have used the same law to protect themselves.

actually, the Latino guy never invoked the law, to his credit, and that of his attorneys. He also(creditably) hung around to tell his side of the story to the cops, as opposed to making a run for it. As for blacks, the one case I'm aware of is a women who invoked the law to defend her right to fire a WARNING SHOT into a nearby wall, and she got 20 years. From some reports, there are a few white on black cases pending in the pipeline, but have no direct information, so those two are the only examples I know of

Bottom line, it's a terrible law, should be repealed, and if not, shame on ALL Floridians.

[Sergeant Thorne]

Stand your ground doesn’t give anyone the right to shoot first and ask questions later or any sort of carte blanche whatsoever.

technically, no, it doesn't. Practically, yes, it does. When cases like the one at hand become even CLOSE to difficult to call, it will embolden the next one. Of course, the next time a BLACK person plugs a carload of white kids for playing loud country music, it likely won't come out the same way.

Frankly there's an almost tangible difference between thugs in an SUV with tinted windows (I'd bet money) and rednecks pushing the volume of their favorite hoedown. Don't pretend like there isn't. Try to keep it reasonable here if you can.

[callmeslick]

Frankly there's an almost tangible difference between thugs in an SUV with tinted windows (I'd bet money) and rednecks pushing the volume of their favorite hoedown from a pickup truck with clear windows. Don't pretend like there isn't. Try to keep it reasonable here if you can.

try not to make it racist. Since when do a group of black teens in an SUV become 'thugs'?? Wow. Thanks for that revealing comment, not that it flatters you. And no, I am not about to make a 'distinction' about people I don't know from Adam. Either by color, music or vehicle. They're all just folks until proven otherwise and nothing about mere appearance is 'proving otherwise' to me.

[Sergeant Thorne]

How can my comment on people you don't know anything about be revealing to you, I wonder? You might consider taking my word for it that you're just ignorant in this case, then, instead of accusing me of being racist for recognizing a difference between to types of people you don't know from Adam. I live on the border of the hood, and I drive 45 minutes to work in redneck central every day, I know exactly what I'm talking about. Young black males like to think of themselves as "thugs", in case you never picked that up. Their word, not mine. Means approximately the same thing as if I were to use it in a derogatory manner. 10-1 the music they were listening to was talking about "thugs" at some point. My premise is there is a lot more sense in feeling threatened about people who pride themselves on being threatening (whether they really are or not) than people who don't, and to equate the two either shows a bias toward the former or ignorance of either.

[callmeslick]

How can my comment on people you don't know anything about be revealing to you, I wonder?

because you generalized. How the hell can you call them 'thugs'? Edit--no, I don't buy your whole 'they call themselves that' nonsense.

You might consider taking my word for it that you're just ignorant in this case, then, instead of accusing me of being racist for recognizing a difference between to types of people you don't know from Adam. I live on the border of the hood, and I drive 45 minutes to work in redneck central every day, I know exactly what I'm talking about. Young black males like to think of themselves as "thugs", in case you never picked that up. Their word, not mine. Means approximately the same thing as if I were to use it in a derogatory manner. 10-1 the music they were listening to was talking about "thugs" at some point. My premise is there is a lot more sense in feeling threatened about people who pride themselves on being threatening (whether they really are or not) than people who don't, and to equate the two either shows a bias toward the former or ignorance of either.

I'm not as sheltered as you might think, and still don't pre-judge people by music, color or cars. Works for me, and has for my whole life.

[Sergeant Thorne]

Slick, it's stupid to make assumptions in order to have an argument with me. You say that I generalize, and you insinuate that I prejudge people according to accessory features. I suspect I could have a multi-page argument with you over how what someone drives, how they listen to their music, and how they won't ★■◆●ing turn it down says something about them, but you'll nitpick it every step of the way, and try to suggest that I think it says everything about them. I say they're thugs because I know that is what an awful lot of insecure young black males aspire to as a means of protection/security and status. There are exceptions, but since I'm not in the jury I have the luxury betting on the odds when you're speaking in generality first.

The truth is we could be talking about legitimate thugs who invest a large part of their wealth in a shiny, portable boom-box from which to express their anti-social feelings from behind tinted windows, or we could be talking about a college student and his friends booming in mom and dads SUV trying to act bad. It doesn't matter to me which it is, because either way a car full of rednecks listening to country (white kids playing country usually ride in a truck if at all possible ) is less threatening simply because these "thugs" are threatening by design, whatever their ultimate intentions may be.

[flip]

Couldn't that have been done a little differently though Thorne? I love people, don't care what color they are. The authority to bind or loose means that instead of being offended by their music, I would have started rockin the beat with them and make us all feel as one. It works, trust me. I can't count how many times I've hollered out "what's up brother!" or even today, 2 Latino's were walking in the store. I opened the door and said "what's up my Latino brothers!" It's all about taking authority and pulling down strongholds. Surely they have the right to listen to whatever music they wish and as loud. It's a store parking lot. Just how much time are you going to spend there anyways?

EDIT:The man who knows his authority has no problem washing the feet of others.

[Will Robinson]

By claiming he thought he saw the guy produce a shotgun during a confrontation and he feared for his life he isn't invoking anything unique to Florida. Everyone in every location in America has that right.

no, they don't, if several eyewitnesses, his girlfriend and the police investigators prove, definitively that such a claim was BS. And, they did. I can guarantee in every sensible state(both of my locations, for example), what he did, given the evidence presented, was a slam-dunk case of 1st degree murder. You can't just claim you saw something that wasn't there, can't claim someone got out of a car when he clearly did not, and so forth. That, actually, should have brought perjury charges on top of the rest.

Slick nothing you said applies to what I said.
If you would like to read my comments again and then address what I DID say instead of misconstrue it to create a platform for your rant I'll be glad to engage...

Here is a bit of help...I never said he was justified in his claim...I even have said it it is highly likely he committed murder..I also cited the testimony the victim was shot inside his own vehicle instead of outside as the shooter claimed...
But 1st degree is a stretch. And the law as I described it does apply EVERYWHERE!
We all have the right he is claiming as I described it! AND the all important qualifying part you left out of your quote is the BIG difference! He doesn't have the evidence to support his claim but it exists and it isn't unique to Florida.

Why do you have to ignore reality? Isn't there enough actually wrong here that you don't need to make stuff up?!?

[Sergeant Thorne]

Couldn't that have been done a little differently though Thorne?

Couldn't what have been done differently, flip?

No they don't have the right to listen to music as loud as they like in a public place. I wouldn't have hassled them about it, personally, but everyone knows that's rude.

[flip]

I mean differently as in not instigating the situation. Some people find loud music rude, other's find open carry rude. Now, if your at home, dealing with neighbors, then a certain protocol may be called for, but nobody has the right to confront somebody over what they perceive as rudeness.

[Will Robinson]

Loud music, especially so loud in the low frequency that it is painful is the reason I'd pay big bucks for a short range EMP device or something like it.
I'd love to ask people nicely to back it down and then when they refuse I'd just smile, flick a switch, and shut their whole car down and drive off.

Maybe just some kind of taser device that could hit the frame of the car and overpower the electronics via the ground path of the circuits. Great fun!

[flip]

There's a million different ways to do something. I was standing in front of a Big Chik the other day. Best fried chicken ever! So you know what that means . Most people will turn down the radio to talk to you.

EDIT: Not to mention that those people know what it means to get in step

[Sergeant Thorne]

I mean differently as in not instigating the situation. Some people find loud music rude, other's find open carry rude. Now, if your at home, dealing with neighbors, then a certain protocol may be called for, but nobody has the right to confront somebody over what they perceive as rudeness.

IMO, to indulge in speculation, the situation as a whole was apparently a response to a woeful miscalculation or a misread situation. Just as a commentary on the topic, I find the possibility that he ruined his whole night and the rest of his life because he believed he could teach these guys a lesson for blasting their music to be a little hard to envision. If there was no gun then he made a grave error and took an innocent life, and he will be paying for it for a long time to come. IMO people who carry could take note, if this is how the case turns out. But I don't know.

I think a situation like that could certainly be handled in such a way as to not escalate, yes. Every violent situation that isn't premeditated has small events leading up to it, and at any point where you are in the right and it's necessary to hold your ground you should do so without provoking. IMO if you reason with someone to turn their music down in a friendly way and they start throwing punches (not a likely situation, IMO), then you do a public service and deal with them accordingly. I don't believe in running away to avoid violence if you're in the right (a point where I disagree with some gun advocates), but I do believe that most violence is avoidable and it is our responsibility to deal with other people peacefully.

[flip]

I agree with that. I've never run in my life but I think it also points to a character deficiency if someone's music bothers you that much. Even if it is loud and vile. I think everything has to be put in perspective. For instance, if I am arguing with someone, I try not to demean them. If I'm telling someone about Christ, I'll take one right on the jaw. If I'm walking down the street with my family and some thug jumps out at us I'm gonna flip his lid for him. Although that is unlikely and I try to keep from thinking like that at all.

[Sergeant Thorne]

I think it also points to a character deficiency if someone's music bothers you that much.

I wouldn't dispute that. I think it's more than the music--it's the idea that the blaring, distasteful music represents--that someone only cares about themselves and is willing that everyone else should put up with listening to what they want to play as loud as possible. And there may be some hypocrisy at work when a person sets out to right the wrongs on this point--it's always easiest to address what's wrong with someone else's life.

[flip]

Yeah, a little tolerance, no a lot of tolerance is in order in a free society. You have to stand up for others rights, even if you disagree with them to be able to uphold your own. Aside from that, I'm having a great time and walking around with a big goofy smile on my face. I am full of the love of God, so I don't have no problem at all rockin that beat either. I'm only gonna get 7-8 hours sleep that night over what anybody else does.