Are there yet

Heretic · Post by **Heretic** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:49 pm

Removed due to inaccuracy of Quote.

Sorry I made a mistake and got called a intolerant name by a seemingly tolerant liberal.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:00 pm

What freedoms are you referring too? I know we've lost quite a few in the intervening decades, both to government and corporate entities, but have you got any recent specific examples that affect you personally?

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:20 pm

Drawing a lot of inspiration from reading "Mein Kampf" ?

flip · Post by **flip** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:34 am

Why not? A whole nation did and actually had a lot of success, 3 against 1

It's the smartest way to go about it and that was Hitler's mistake, too much too soon. The younger generation has no idea how free we used to be, so likely they will never miss what they never had.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:26 am

You lose freedoms every time the government makes a law, because that is what laws do…they restrict freedoms…by design.

Of course the government is also supposed to protect freedom...strange dichotomy.

Heretic · Post by **Heretic** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:48 am

tunnelcat wrote:What freedoms are you referring too? I know we've lost quite a few in the intervening decades, both to government and corporate entities, but have you got any recent specific examples that affect you personally?

We just had the discussion over stop and identify. The patriot act, religious freedoms, OSHA reaching into homes of the telecommuters, the NSA collecting our phone and computer information, unable to fly the US flag on certain days.

Put it simple enough we lost these amendments
1st
4th
5th
6th
8th
14th
and they are also working on the 2nd.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:36 am

no way we LOST any of those amendments. For one thing, people get absolutist over them, but they've always been subject to interpretation from the SCOTUS. I might agree that some have been restricted or interpreted in ways I disagree with(notably around the definition of free speech equated to monetary contributions in elections), and yes, the Patriot act to me seems to override a couple more, but to say 'lost' is far to extensive, IMHO.

Heretic · Post by **Heretic** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:53 am

Here is a nice PDF on how much we have lost. You may think we have not lost them but even restricting them is a loss in a way.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:01 am

Yea, if protected rights are under siege, one can only imagine how many unprotected rights will be/are lost.

Heretic · Post by **Heretic** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:13 am

Grendel wrote:Drawing a lot of inspiration from reading "Mein Kampf" ?

Nothing bad about expanding your personal knowledge is there?

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:27 am

What do you suggest we do Heretic? Yes, we've gotten quite a few restrictions placed on those freedom over the years, AND many of those restrictions, or outright losses, due to laws created under the control and auspices of both political parties, I might add. Plus, we are losing our privacy and rights to corporate interests, which by the way, we as voters, have no direct say in what they do to us, or what laws they get passed in their favor, either. Our own Oregon legislature has been slowly undermining public access laws ever since our open records law came into being after the Watergate scandal in 1973, and they're doing this for the most innocuous of reasons they can think of.

http://www.opb.org/news/article/2-orego ... ds-access/

Heretic · Post by **Heretic** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:48 am

Not much we can do if we keep voting for people who want to take our liberties away from the people of their state and country.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:45 pm

Neither party is innocent of the act of taking away our liberties. Republicans gave us Homeland Security, the NSA spying on Americans and The Patriot Act. The Democrats have done nothing but continue those programs, so they're just as complicit. The Tea Party is not an option, despite their love of "freedom". They love it so much, they're self-centered and antisocial to the point that there should be NO SOCIAL PROGRAMS and NO GOVERNMENT to interfere with that oh-so-wonderful and altruistic free market, at all. That's just as bad as a repressive government. It's called anarchy and it's nothing but a dog eat dog environment where the weak and sick are trampled. Not a country that I would personally like to live in.

Heretic · Post by **Heretic** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:13 pm

So what do you suggest we do to turn this around?

Edit I do believe there was only one democrat that voted against the original act and that was Feingold

vision · Post by **vision** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:34 pm

Removed. [Mod: Banter is one thing. Personal shots are another. Learn the difference.]

Z.. · Post by **Z..** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:45 pm

Epic crushing there vision. Epic.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:06 am

Heretic, i did a number of searches on Mein Kampf. It's not in there.

The idea, I think holds true.

Mein Kampf speaks to patriotism, military and economic reform along with wiping out the Jews.

vision · Post by **vision** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:52 am

Duper wrote:Mein Kampf speaks to patriotism, military and economic reform along with wiping out the Jews.

Don't forget about the rampant sexism.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:01 am

Didn’t stop Grendel from stating the quote was from Mein Kampf, and is he not German?

I’m willing to cut Heretic a little slack, because if you search that quote, you get about 9 gazillion hits attributing it to Adolf Hitler.

“The internet…largest source of misinformation ever invented”

~Spidey

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:57 am

63% of statistics are total bull★■◆●!

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:54 am

Typical of this forum. Totally miss the point to argue semantics. Vision, could you be more of a putz?

Heretic · Post by **Heretic** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:35 am

Vision does make a point, instead of just pointing out the mistake. He being liberal just resorted to name calling.

Quote has been removed.

Just like Cuda I hate what this forum has become. Goodbye

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:06 am

Vision tries to come across as some sort of tolerant human being. I wonder if he is secretly doing a end zone dance knowing he has driven a board member away. What a schmuck.

snoopy · Post by **snoopy** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:17 am

I just want to know if it's hypocritical to be both a pacifist and a troll.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:27 am

Heretic wrote:Vision does make a point, instead of just pointing out the mistake. He being liberal just resorted to name calling.

Quote has been removed.

Just like Cuda I hate what this forum has become. Goodbye

thank goodness, I don't get the blame for this one....

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:57 am

No, but you posted before vision, so you could have pointed out Heretic’s mistake in a more politically correct way.

So it's your fault.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:23 am

Spidey wrote:No, but you posted before vision, so you could have pointed out Heretic’s mistake in a more politically correct way.

So it's your fault.

hell, I didn't even view it as a 'mistake' worth mentioning.

Z.. · Post by **Z..** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:01 pm

Don't let the door hit you on the way out Heretic.

Guy comes in with some fake quote and tries to make the notion that the current administration is following the same lines as someone responsible for the murder of nearly ten million people. Vision calls him out on it.

Naturally vision's comments are removed by the moderators but woodchip is allowed to call vision a schmuck. Good to see nothing has changed here.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:03 pm

Well, I do think Heretic does have a point. I may not agree with him on the religious freedom part of his argument, but between corporations and the government, we are getting a creeping incremental loss of many of the basic freedoms we once enjoyed. I also find it a little scary that no one in the U.S. seems to be worrying about it. Are we all such little scared mindless people in this country that we won't even question SCOTUS, who just gave the police a little more power to enter and search your home, even if it's AGAINST your vehement objections, as long as a co-occupant grants them access. WTF, a 6 to 3 decision in favor of this? This decision may not seem bad on the surface, but how long before the police just start waltzing right in because they coerce or strong-arm someone into giving them that access, because it's easier than getting a warrant?

http://personalliberty.com/2014/02/25/s ... nt-ruling/

sigma · Post by **sigma** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:27 pm

And that "Mein Kampf" is an interesting book? Not yet read.
But I read "Capital" by Karl Marx. And I can even advise to spend time on it.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:48 pm

sigma wrote:And that "Mein Kampf" is an interesting book? Not yet read.
But I read "Capital" by Karl Marx. And I can even advise to spend time on it.

Interesting in that it gives insight to Hitler's frame of mind. He references Marx's book in Mein Kampf.
Most of what what is written parallels a rant by someone just out of highschool, honestly. It's worth a glance if nothing more than historical reference.

and Z, you're not adding anything worthwhile.

vision · Post by **vision** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:38 pm

Z.. wrote:Naturally vision's comments are removed by the moderators but woodchip is allowed to call vision a schmuck. Good to see nothing has changed here.

My burn was hilarious and done with amazing style. I mean seriously, can someone top that? I've never seen that level of wit in this forum.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:20 pm

and Z, you're not adding anything worthwhile.

he never does. Thats why he had a vacation. Guess he didn't learn anything

vision · Post by **vision** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:27 pm

So here are some random, bonus thoughts about this E&C forum:

Heretic wrote:He being liberal just resorted to name calling.

I love how "liberal" gets tossed around like a dirty word a child learns for the first time and can say without their parents hearing and grounding them. So exciting! Heretic clearly self-identifies as a conservative. How nice. But only in a black in white world do the people whom you disagree become the opposite of what you surround yourself with. Speaking of self-identity it might be fun to reiterate some facts about me:

Voted for Bush on 2000
Did not vote for Obama
Campaigned for Ron Paul (twice)
Gets called a liberal on this forum almost weekly

Note: I don't self-identify as conservative or liberal. Governance is complex and some areas need more intervention, others less.

vision wrote:Removed. [Mod: Banter is one thing. Personal shots are another. Learn the difference.]

Ooooo! Scary red text! I've been shamed for my witty approach to handling a thread that is the equivalent of Thunder Bunny's nonsense. A Hitler quote? Are you freaking kidding me? What is this, a forum full of 5th graders? If you are going to use a quote by Hitler, surround it with some meaningful context and for the love of God make sure the quote is real.

flip wrote:Vision, could you be more of a putz?

woodchip wrote:What a schmuck.

These are fine examples of "banter."

snoopy wrote:I just want to know if it's hypocritical to be both a pacifist and a troll.

Learn what a troll is. Starting a thread with a Hitler quote is classic troll material. Unfortunately, Heretic thinks Hitler actually said this (and probably thinks Hitler diabolically wanted to take away the freedom of the German population). Requoted for reference:

"The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed."

Now here is the thing, a troll does not call out the stupidity of a thread or the stupidity of OP. That is a public service I offer free of charge. Trolls go into seemingly benign threads and stir them up in mischevious ways. That's what a troll does. Yes I am a pacifist. I will not physically resort to violence. However, my pacifism stops at language. I will fully, vehemently engage in a war of ideas. The land of discourse is were battles need to be fought and won for the benefit of all living things.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:55 pm

Some simple manners would be good.

seriously.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:50 am

vision wrote:
Z.. wrote:Naturally vision's comments are removed by the moderators but woodchip is allowed to call vision a schmuck. Good to see nothing has changed here.
My burn was hilarious and done with amazing style. I mean seriously, can someone top that? I've never seen that level of wit in this forum.

I think you have seriously lowered the bar for defining "hilarious", "amazing" and "wit"...but that is probably par for the course when one is so anxious to award himself praise.

flip · Post by **flip** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:02 am

Eh, Vision is full of crapola. He's a self-professed pacifist who thinks verbally engaging someone equates to demeaning people and calling them stupid. I noticed with him and others here, that if you refuse to verbally attack back and present compelling evidence to the contrary, the thread just dies. I assume this is not because they want to openly discuss opposing viewpoints, it's because they are 'physical' pacifists

who just want to dump on somebody from a safe position. Although, I will say, at times he has some things worthwhile to say. So there's hope for an intellectual somewhere in there.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:04 am

Duper wrote:Some simple manners would be good.

seriously.

well put.....personally, I never have much of an issue with disagreement, and understand my fellow humans enough to understand that we can lose temper, say harsh things and make mistakes. But, a little more give and take is a good goal, and as I said before, an awareness of the limited communication via this limited medium for exchanges is in order.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:16 am

flip wrote:Eh, Vision is full of crapola. He's a self-professed pacifist who thinks verbally engaging someone equates to demeaning people and calling them stupid. I noticed with him and others here, that if you refuse to verbally attack back and present compelling evidence to the contrary, the thread just dies. I assume this is not because they want to openly discuss opposing viewpoints, it's because they are 'physical' pacifists who just want to dump on somebody from a safe position. Although, I will say, at times he has some things worthwhile to say. So there's hope for an intellectual somewhere in there.

Vision has preached the "power of words" before...even demanding we take ridiculous steps to avoid that potential problem. Apparently though, the power of words is his to unleash, because a mere mis attribution of a quote is grounds for assault in his mind.

Foil · Post by **Foil** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:19 am

Is there any on-topic discussion left here, or has this thread "left the building" entirely?