Russia and China should strike now...

[Nightshade]

The Obama presidency is the best time to make territorial claims and annexations.

They have plenty of reason to act as soon as possible to do so.

In fact, Russia could put an end to NATO very easily- Estonia could be next.

Article 5 says that NATO members pledge to come to the assistance of the attacked state using “such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force.” It doesn’t take a White House lawyer to see the gaping loophole—President Obama can simply deem that the use of U.S. force isn’t necessary. He can walk back the red line, as he did with Syria. Stern talk and minimal sanctions would follow, but Estonia would lose some, if not all of its territory. And in practical terms it would mean the end of NATO, which is one of Moscow’s longstanding strategic objectives. Mr. Putin’s chess game does not end in Crimea.

http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/ ... ssia-10098

It's in Russia and China's estimation that the west will do nothing- and they're probably right.

[Will Robinson]

I think the idea that whole countries should go to war over disputes between leaders of countries is similar to the idea that children should strap on suicide vests and blow themselves up because a 'leader' told them it was the right thing to do.

Who invented the accepted practice that we don't assassinate leaders of enemy states? Leaders did....of course!
Well they are the same ones who would march a half million of us citizens into a 10 year meat grinder over some foreign leader's power play.

I know there are times we go to war as a country. But there should be more times we focus our resources on a single source of the problem. If that leads to seeing our leaders take one for the team all the better. The result of that will benefit us as well.

[woodchip]

Ummm, Will we did that back in the 50's-70's but then the bleeding hearts told us it was a nono so we stopped. The same bleeding hearts did nothing to stop our youngsters from dying by sending them to war. I guess to a certain mindset it is better to have 18 year olds die than the people who cause the war.

[vision]

Let Russia have all they want. Eventually they will make the Chinese nervous then The West will no longer be a concern for either China or Russia. They will have eyes firmly fixed on each other. In fact, that sounds like a fantastic idea. We should help Russia get more powerful.

[flip]

Russia and China have more in common than they do at odds with each other. A better idea, and in fact one that a lot of research suggests may even be true, is if Russia and China were to join forces to weaken the US.

[vision]

Russia and China have more in common than they do at odds with each other.

I suspect you don't know any Chinese people. If you did, you would have never said that. And yes, China and Russia working together can have an impact on the United States, but as I said above, eventually they will have to deal with one another. The sooner the better.

[Will Robinson]

Russia and China have more in common than they do at odds with each other. A better idea, and in fact one that a lot of research suggests may even be true, is if Russia and China were to join forces to weaken the US.

Despite what vision thinks he knows 'because he apparently knows some chinese people...' Russia and China have often worked together to oppose the U.S..
In the U.N. Security Council they did so to the point that Saddam refused to let the weapons inspection process take place unfettered primarily because of promises made by them that they would never let the U.S. invade!
In return for their assistance they were to receive rights to lease oil fields. That's right, not Bush and Haliburton....it was Russia, China and France who were in it for the oil.

http://content.time.com/time/world/arti ... 87,00.html

Also Russia and China stage joint military sabre rattling and they supply weapons to countries/factions hostile to the U.S.
So they work quite well together already. I know this, and a few chinese people too.

[sigma]

Today I heard conversation of the Russian and German businessmen in Four Seasons hotel in Moscow. The Russian businessman asks: "I heard that Angela Merkel wants to enter sanctions against Russia." The German answers: "Don't pay to it attention. She says this because she should say it. But our arrangements remain in force, isn't it?" the Russian answers: "Haha. Of course".

[flip]

I know a few Chinese people but I have no idea what that has to do with anything. On the other hand, I base all my assessments on a great deal of fact searching, not whimsy. Put it all together and it makes a pretty clear picture on it's own without any help from me. I won't bother laying it out though, because even the basic tenets are ignored here. That's why I can't be bothered to discuss many issues with the indoctrinated. Their thoughts are not their own and any response is just gonna be regurgitated.

[vision]

I know a few Chinese people but I have no idea what that has to do with anything.

Your statement is simply false. A common enemy doesn't in any way imply China and Russia have more in common than not. That's all I'm saying. If anything, Russian and American culture is more similar than China and anyone else.

Whatever. If Ukrainian territories want to be absorbed into Russia, let them. If suddenly British Columbia wanted to be part of the US I would be like "sure, but why? you are much cooler than us. you could do better."

[Ferno]

If british columbia became part of the united states, the cost of living would drop and the level of intelligence would probably go up.

[flip]

I never said anything about a common enemy. I was talking about ideology and method of governance. How can saying I know Chinese people be a false statement? I'm with Cuda, the level of debate here is high-schoolish.

[callmeslick]

what is sort of funny(in a very sad way) is that the same goofballs who are decrying the 'weakness of the US, under Obama', are the same fools who have spent 5 years trying to undermine the legitimacy of Obama. Which, of course, is the only thing that puts the US in a position of weakness.



oh, and the premise from the original post is just plain goofy. As noted, China is deathly afraid of anything Russian. They have NEVER worked in concert, and the idea that Obama will sit idly by and let Russia reclaim the old Soviet satellites is ludicrous. Say what you will about economic sanctions, they can be VERY effective. Even with limited ones at present, the Russian stock market is down like 14% in two weeks. That can hurt....badly.

[vision]

I was talking about ideology and method of governance.

That's exactly my point, they are completely different in those regards. Russia and the US have more in common ideologically and with governance than China and Russia.

[flip]

Well, Putin has all but come right out and said that he feels Russia was swindled at the 'end' of the Cold War and has every intention to restore it. The Cold War only ends if everybody involved agrees;)

Sorry Vision, my investigations have not led me to that conclusion.

The 2011 Democracy Index stated that Russia was in "a long process of regression [that] culminated in a move from a hybrid to an authoritarian regime" in view of Putin's candidacy and flawed parliamentary elections.[6]

According to Stephen White, Russia under the presidency of Putin made it clear that it had no intention of establishing a "second edition" of the American or British political system, but rather a system that was closer to Russia's own traditions and circumstances.[117] Putin's administration has often been described as a "sovereign democracy".[118] According to the proponents of that description, the government's actions and policies ought above all to enjoy popular support within Russia itself and not be determined from outside the country

I could go on and on but it would not matter. Our system of government is one of representation, where the people elect representatives from their own hometowns. Russia and China are authoritarian governments. The principles do not agree.

[sigma]

Compared with Western countries , China has an important advantage - it never creeps into our internal policies . There are instances when people make negative publications about Russia or the Russian leadership in the official press , serving sentences or are under threat of punishment. Russia is still important for China as a source of military technology and energy resources. Russia supplies a significant amount of high-tech components for Chinese weapons systems. As importer of raw materials , China is more interesting for Russia than the European Union . The Chinese market has unlimited perspectives from natural gas and other raw materials , you only need to build infrastructure. But the problem is that China can not fully ensure the Russian consumer products , and Russia can not fully ensure China's energy needs. To solve these problems, China should move in all countries of the world, as the United States . For China, the global economic expansion - a matter of survival . China responds by building a powerful military machine capable of projecting their power worldwide. Putin was right to say, when he was still prime minister, that China aspires to global leadership . Russia is hardly competitive in this for him and will watch as China struggles with other centers of power , and trying to get benefits from this struggle .
However , China is undeniable predstavlet potential military threat to eastern Russia. China has a lot of cruise missiles , so even if you put in Siberia entire American army at full strength , the impact of China's artillery cut the entire defense in half and come collapse. In Soviet times, we had a great superiority in firepower, we could count on the transition from an early moment of conflict in the offensive and the defeat of Chinese troops in Northeast China due to our mobility. Now this might no single state. Our only protection becomes tactical and strategic nuclear weapons. Very significant part of arms since the beginning of 2000 comes the Far East. Since the early 2000s, huge amounts of money on direct orders from senior management come to the base of nuclear submarines to Vilyuchinsk . There also sent our new nuclear submarines . Asia-Pacific region - a place where the world's future is decided . And already there are several points of controversy between different countries .
Russia continues to invest in its arsenal of tactical nuclear weapons, such as missiles "Iskander" . All these distant threats considered.

I was talking about ideology and method of governance.

That's exactly my point, they are completely different in those regards. Russia and the US have more in common ideologically and with governance than China and Russia.

For the Chinese and Russian for the creation of a military alliance with the U.S. and NATO is mutually disadvantageous decision. We only beneficial mutual cooperation .

[flip]

Technical difficulties aside, we all know the unifying effect the railway had on America. Give this some time and the lines will be become even blurrier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Asian_Railway