Relativity of time and faith in God

sigma · Post by **sigma** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:35 pm

Once again, I read the Bible and I tried to understand why people believe in God. And I found this information. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future

That is, from the viewpoint mayflies (in this case, if the animals could be aware of its existence), the human lifespan is infinite. And because, apparently, the Universe also has a lifetime limit, from the perspective of human life expectancy of the Universe is infinitely large. So the question arises as to what the timeline is living Creator of the Universe? Apparently, all that once was born, must sooner or later die. Even the Creator of the Universe.
But if the Creator of the Universe for someone it is probably just Mayfly, what sense to worship this creature?

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:11 pm

Who says the Creator has to die? You?

sigma · Post by **sigma** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:29 pm

You do not want to admit such a possibility in principle? Even potentially immortal (about the length of life of all other living creatures on Earth) anemones and freshwater hydra still have a limit to their life.

flip · Post by **flip** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:51 pm

God is a Spirit.

sigma · Post by **sigma** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:23 pm

If God is a spirit, what right has he to blame or condemn people for their natural instincts, such as hunger, fear, pain? And even more so, to call them sinners, when real people are in need of procreation? God mocks people? I do not understand something. If God is spirit, and then let him live in his parallel reality. And in my opinion, mankind is long past time to stop worshiping spirits. This impasse for the development of science, civilization, anachronism, a vestige of the Middle Ages and the reason for the hostility between blind fanatics that have been encoded with other religions.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:41 pm

Those who are spiritual may be missing a single serotonin receptor in their brains. Those who are overtly spiritual may have some atrophy of the right hippocampus in common.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/you ... uroscience

Be that as it may, I do believe that there is some otherworldly being out there watching all of us and influencing our lives from day to day. Whether it's for enjoyment or some other reason, I can't fathom the answer. The universe, however, is a very strange and mysterious place. Who knows?

flip · Post by **flip** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:47 pm

So which is it TC, you missing a receptor or got atrophy of the brain?

EDIT: Kidding aside, how else do you fuse a spiritual being into a body of flesh? Those kind of arguments make no sense.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:38 am

I'm going up to the mountains of Pennsylvania to worship mayflies(and the trout that eat them) for about half of the next 6 weeks. Just sayin'

sigma · Post by **sigma** » Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:12 am

callmeslick wrote:I'm going up to the mountains of Pennsylvania to worship mayflies(and the trout that eat them) for about half of the next 6 weeks. Just sayin'

Dude, you're a soul mate! Despite the fact that over the next 6 weeks we can catch fish with his bare hands in the reeds in large quantities, I never catch fish for spawning. At this time, I also prefer to catch a predator. In May, especially large specimens caught. There is nothing better than to smoke freshly caught fish and enjoy it with friends! Who would not say that, but the time spent fishing, really well spent! Break a leg, buddy!

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:56 pm

sigma wrote:If God is a spirit, what right has he to blame or condemn people for their natural instincts, such as hunger, fear, pain? And even more so, to call them sinners, when real people are in need of procreation? God mocks people? I do not understand something. If God is spirit, and then let him live in his parallel reality. And in my opinion, mankind is long past time to stop worshiping spirits. This impasse for the development of science, civilization, anachronism, a vestige of the Middle Ages and the reason for the hostility between blind fanatics that have been encoded with other religions.

I appreciate your feelings toward religion, but you said you read the Bible and then you start this post off claiming that God has no right to... God has the ultimate right, right from Genesis. If you create something, you have the "right", wouldn't you agree? God created everything.

sigma · Post by **sigma** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:27 am

Of course, my opinion is the point of view of an atheist. That is, man, free from the effects of religion. But I always appreciate the opinion and I respect world outlook of religious people as a source of knowledge for my understanding of the universe and of human relationships. I understand that religion is an important way of association and communication of people in the social society. Religion is eternal, because social people experiencing need to belong to something greater than himself. From this point of view, God will exist as long as there are people. From the perspective of an atheist, I do not understand, as a free man may voluntarily plead someone's property. That is, to become a slave. Even if he becomes a slave of God. Indeed, in this case, the person loses the ability to think independently, and he begins to act against their will, and the will of "representatives" of God. I do not understand who the people are praying in the church. It seems that this herd social animals not praying to God, and shows solidarity with other social animals so. Although it is clear that for many people the belief in God is the is the only light in their lives when they see that their surrounding reality does not correspond to their idealistic notions about this world.

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:08 pm

Sergeant Thorne wrote:I appreciate your feelings toward religion, but you said you read the Bible and then you start this post off claiming that God has no right to... God has the ultimate right, right from Genesis. If you create something, you have the "right", wouldn't you agree?

I don't see any reason to think that, especially when applied to sentient beings.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:43 pm

Yes, that's an interesting question: if a group of researchers were able to create a truly-sentient artificial intelligence, an entity on the same level of cognition and self-awareness as a human being, would those researchers have absolute authority over this being just by virtue of the fact that they created it? I for one don't see how that would ethically follow: surely a human-level intelligence should be subject to the same rights and freedoms under the law as any human adult. (Man, though, the amount of great sci-fi that's explored that question...) I've sometimes struggled with the equivalent faith-based question myself...even if I acknowledge God as a universal Creator, does it then automatically follow that God's statutes should be absolutely obeyed, simply by virtue of his status as Creator? And if not, what does that imply? It's a hefty question.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:05 pm

Sergeant Thorne wrote:... If you create something, you have the "right", wouldn't you agree? God created everything.

From a mortal humans perspective that rationale for his omnipotent "right" makes him nothing more than a potential predator. We are completely insignificant if it is simply his power that makes us his to destroy on a whim. How could anyone seek to submit to, let alone worship, that?

Kind of makes his followers more like sufferers of Stockholm Syndrome...

Put that way it makes me want to survive him, to challenge and defeat him, to gain my freedom!

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:43 pm

I have an acquaintance who's agnostic and has stated repeatedly that, if God as portrayed in the Bible was real, he would consider God evil, and work to overthrow him. It's certainly not a viewpoint I've often seen expressed, but after watching The Ten Commandments again the other night (love that movie), I can see how someone could possibly form that opinion.

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:19 am

Will Robinson wrote:
Sergeant Thorne wrote:... If you create something, you have the "right", wouldn't you agree? God created everything.
From a mortal humans perspective that rationale for his omnipotent "right" makes him nothing more than a potential predator. We are completely insignificant if it is simply his power that makes us his to destroy on a whim. How could anyone seek to submit to, let alone worship, that?

Kind of makes his followers more like sufferers of Stockholm Syndrome...

Put that way it makes me want to survive him, to challenge and defeat him, to gain my freedom!

Well, Will, first that would be the ultimate fools crusade. There is no freedom from a God who created the entire universe and dwells outside of time. You're either an idiot (which I know isn't the case), or you haven't thought it through, or you're not seriously considering the full ramifications of the existence of the God of the Bible. That's who we're talking about then we're talking about God, after all. Should we take the basic idea of a God from the Bible, but leave everything it says about him as non-essential, letting our imagination stand in place?

I think you misunderstand what worship is (I would say most people do, including "Christians"). I've had a problem with the idea of worship (I'm not inclined to worship anything for vague reasons), so I've given it a lot of thought. Put in the most straight-forward terms, worship is the act of acknowledging the good aspects of God. In its purest form, worship is the realization and acknowledgement of truth. We worship the God of the Bible, because when he could do anything to us, and should perhaps do a lot he hasn't done, he has granted us freedom, given us good things, and experienced severe limitation and death just to reconcile us to himself when our forefather (Adam) rebelled against Him. People worship sports stars or movie stars with little enough reason...

My biggest question is, why should you think that God is some kind of monster or arch villain just because his power or right is limitless? Where does that notion hail from?

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:40 am

What I object to is the notion that God has the right to do whatever he wants to us because he created us and that he uses this as his defense!

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:17 am

Top Gun wrote:Yes, that's an interesting question: if a group of researchers were able to create a truly-sentient artificial intelligence, an entity on the same level of cognition and self-awareness as a human being, would those researchers have absolute authority over this being just by virtue of the fact that they created it? I for one don't see how that would ethically follow: surely a human-level intelligence should be subject to the same rights and freedoms under the law as any human adult. (Man, though, the amount of great sci-fi that's explored that question...) I've sometimes struggled with the equivalent faith-based question myself...even if I acknowledge God as a universal Creator, does it then automatically follow that God's statutes should be absolutely obeyed, simply by virtue of his status as Creator? And if not, what does that imply? It's a hefty question.

There is a big difference between man created intelligence (MCI) and God creating man. For the MCI there is no afterlife. Once the plug is pulled, nada. God offers eternal life, and man can only offer existence until the emp bomb is dropped. So what does a MCI have for a moral compass? Coding? Whats to keep the MCI from turning on his creators? And unlike our God, the MCI will be able to communicate with its creators and we all know what familiarity breeds.

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:09 am

I think you're dealing with a straw-man there. "use this in His defense"? Where? This notion you're dealing with here, unless you're arguing against someone other than myself, is that God has every right as our creator. This is the Bible's position...

Psalm 2 wrote:1 Why do the heathen rage,
and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder,
and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh:
the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath,
and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king
upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree:
the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son;
this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me,
and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,
and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings:
be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry,
and ye perish from the way,
when his wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Daniel 4 wrote:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: 35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? 36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me. 37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

Job 34 wrote:1 Furthermore Elihu answered and said,
2 Hear my words, O ye wise men;
and give ear unto me, ye that have knowledge.
3 For the ear trieth words,
as the mouth tasteth meat.
4 Let us choose to us judgment:
let us know among ourselves what is good.
5 For Job hath said, I am righteous:
and God hath taken away my judgment.
6 Should I lie against my right?
my wound is incurable without transgression.
7 What man is like Job,
who drinketh up scorning like water?
8 Which goeth in company with the workers of iniquity,
and walketh with wicked men.
9 For he hath said, It profiteth a man nothing
that he should delight himself with God.
10 Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding:
far be it from God, that he should do wickedness;
and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him,
and cause every man to find according to his ways.
12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly,
neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
13 Who hath given him a charge over the earth?
or who hath disposed the whole world?
14 If he set his heart upon man,
if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together,
and man shall turn again unto dust.
16 If now thou hast understanding, hear this:
hearken to the voice of my words.
17 Shall even he that hateth right govern?
and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?
18 Is it fit to say to a king, Thou art wicked?
and to princes, Ye are ungodly?
19 How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes,
nor regardeth the rich more than the poor?
for they all are the work of his hands.
20 In a moment shall they die,
and the people shall be troubled at midnight, and pass away:
and the mighty shall be taken away without hand.
21 For his eyes are upon the ways of man,
and he seeth all his goings.
22 There is no darkness, nor shadow of death,
where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.
23 For he will not lay upon man more than right;
that he should enter into judgment with God.
24 He shall break in pieces mighty men without number, and set others in their stead.
25 Therefore he knoweth their works,
and he overturneth them in the night, so that they are destroyed.
26 He striketh them as wicked men
in the open sight of others;
27 Because they turned back from him,
and would not consider any of his ways:
28 So that they cause the cry of the poor to come unto him,
and he heareth the cry of the afflicted.
29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble?
and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him?
whether it be done against a nation,
or against a man only:
30 That the hypocrite reign not,
lest the people be ensnared.
31 Surely it is meet to be said unto God,
I have borne chastisement, I will not offend any more:
32 That which I see not teach thou me:
if I have done iniquity, I will do no more.
33 Should it be according to thy mind? he will recompense it,
whether thou refuse, or whether thou choose; and not I:
therefore speak what thou knowest.
34 Let men of understanding tell me,
and let a wise man hearken unto me.
35 Job hath spoken without knowledge,
and his words were without wisdom.
36 My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end
because of his answers for wicked men.
37 For he addeth rebellion unto his sin,
he clappeth his hands among us,
and multiplieth his words against God.

This was Job, who God said was the most righteous man on the face of the earth at that time, after God put him in his place when he was saying that God had wronged him...

Job 42 wrote:1 Then Job answered the Lord, and said,
2 I know that thou canst do every thing,
and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who is he that hideth counsel
without knowledge?
therefore have I uttered that I understood not;
things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak:
I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear:
but now mine eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent
in dust and ashes.

God's character does not derive negatively somehow from God's right as our creator, nor are his actions justified only by virtue of his power. We can perceive that God's judgements are right. God is not a man. God is not a cosmic bully. Men on the other hand, as the Bible says, have a heart that is desperately wicked. If you choose to pit your hypocritical, short-sight, and underdeveloped sense of right and wrong against the Bible, much less the person of God Himself, even I could show you that you're wrong.

You might be interested to know that I have struggled with believing in God in my life. There is so much in our culture, and in our world, that is set against it. As a thinking person, the easiest way that I find not to be dissuaded by all of the protests and arguments which are contrived against the God of the Bible, is the systematic and convenient hypocrisy and dishonesty which comes from the same quarter. It is clear to me that the Bible is right, but its even clearer that people who are against the Bible are wrong.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:01 am

My comment was simply to suggest proclaiming his "right" over us is very off putting even if you think you can document it.

I can do what I want with the guitar I just built. I have that right to burn it or celebrate it...or both, because I made it.

I can arbitrarily and without any conscious concern for the fate of the guitar disregard it completely and feel no remorse or loss. It can become completely insignificant to me instantly on a whim. I can use it for evil or good without it having any change of state as a result of its use.

The premise that God considers us in that same way is inconsistent with the way most christians are taught to perceive him. If that 'right' is to be accepted then it invalidates most of the gospel used to gather his flock. The 'grace of God's love' is wiped out by attributing the premise of that right to him.

I've never met him so I don't know. I have met lots of people who claim to speak for him and I avoid most of them precisely because of that claim.

Maybe I'm bitter because he never speaks to me in spite of being told I just need to ask him to yet he doesn't.
Maybe I'm smart to doubt it all.
Maybe I'm afraid of judgement so I construct the rationale of my doubt.

But if that 'right' is his claim then maybe he was watching over us and involved deeply in our beginnings but abandoned us because we turned out to be a failed experiment. A disappointment and when his Mom finds the jar on his closet shelf that contains his old experiment, that we call 'our universe', floating in the jar, it will be tossed in the garbage incinerator and we will think we are experiencing the end as delivered unto us by God...and in our miserable failure to understand what is happening we will be, technically, correct....

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:03 am

flip wrote:So which is it TC, you missing a receptor or got atrophy of the brain?

EDIT: Kidding aside, how else do you fuse a spiritual being into a body of flesh? Those kind of arguments make no sense.

According to the article, those who are spiritual in their lives are missing that particular brain receptor. But the ones who preach spirituality fervently to others have a shrunken hippocampus.

So are you saying those who don't have that receptor are special to God? What about the rest of us? Doomed to eternal Hell because we are non-believers?

Thorne, if God created man, why is man so bloody screwed up and cruel to one another? Either this planet is really God's Hell and we're all here because we've done evil in a past life and we're being punished for it so we can redeem ourselves, or God is really some alien being experimenter who's made the Earth his lab, all to see how long it takes for humans to destroy their world because of their own self-serving evilness, hatred and greed.

sigma · Post by **sigma** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:13 am

Top Gun wrote:...even if I acknowledge God as a universal Creator, does it then automatically follow that God's statutes should be absolutely obeyed, simply by virtue of his status as Creator? And if not, what does that imply? It's a hefty question.

No.
Firstly, on the basis of logic, I'm sure 99.99% that there is a huge amount of biological civilizations in the universe, that somehow resemble earthly life.
At least based on the principle of precedent existence of life on Earth. Structure of the universe too much like a large number of "Petri dishes", which is created and cultivated biological life to meet the needs opredelennnoe Higher Mind (or Creator).
Secondly, a person (or any other living creature), as a product of the Creator exactly will perform well-defined functions, which were laid in him by his Creator. As well as Aiko and ASIMO, created by man will serve its purpose by the will of man.
Religion, in my opinion, on the contrary, it's just similarity not genetic of the operating system, created by man to control human society. We know that as soon as any human community, people automatically create their own religion (the operating system). It all depends on the level of society. If the ancient shamans to frighten their fellow lightning, solar eclipses, meteor showers, etc., in a more developed society priests scare people have more sophisticated methods. Although the essence is the same - the establishment of control over the society, filling the brains of people with religion instead of education. It is difficult to dominate the smart people. Today religion successfully replacing science education. Therefore, the modern individual can choose what to believe him - in God or science.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:23 am

I've said that very thing before. Religion is a human social construct created by superstitious people to explain the mysteries of our universe and allow people to have power over other people. It's also an excuse to start cruel, bloody wars, kill for reasons of superiority and subjugate others.

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:49 am

Will Robinson wrote:I can arbitrarily and without any conscious concern for the fate of the guitar disregard it completely and feel no remorse or loss. It can become completely insignificant to me instantly on a whim. I can use it for evil or good without it having any change of state as a result of its use.

The premise that God considers us in that same way is inconsistent with the way most christians are taught to perceive him.

Is it? But you're projecting the boundaries of your own nature onto God, when the Bible says that is not so.

Will Robinson wrote:Maybe I'm bitter because he never speaks to me in spite of being told I just need to ask him to yet he doesn't.
Maybe I'm smart to doubt it all.
Maybe I'm afraid of judgement so I construct the rationale of my doubt.

But if that 'right' is his claim then maybe he was watching over us and involved deeply in our beginnings but abandoned us because we turned out to be a failed experiment.

I think anyone can be bitter in a one-sided argument with someone who isn't communicating with them in the way they wish and they don't understand why. I've experienced this in personal relationships with other people. Who said God's attention was available on-demand, and what would make someone believe that? As I read the Bible there is a little more to it than that. It reminds me of Jesus' parable of the children in the marketplace.

I think you're smart to doubt a good 80% of it, because the truth is that most people in churches use the Bible only as a tool to suppress their conscience and to manipulate others to their benefit, while they do whatever they want with their life, but I think most people throw away the Bible without ever getting past the veneer church-goer's impression of what it says about God and about us. Personally, I respect people who desire to be aloof from all of the religious nonsense going on in the world, but in the end we are accountable to God nonetheless for our actions not theirs.

As for fear of judgement... personally I find that doubt or antagonism is more often a self-defensive response, in ignorance, of something that is explicitly contrary to our nature. Just know that the Bible doesn't just say a lot of things that most people don't know, it also says that there are spiritual and physical forces at work to prevent us from knowing.

Will Robinson wrote:A disappointment and when his Mom finds the jar on his closet shelf that contains his old experiment, that we call 'our universe', floating in the jar, it will be tossed in the garbage incinerator and we will think we are experiencing the end as delivered unto us by God...and in our miserable failure to understand what is happening we will be, technically, correct....

That's devolving into abject foolishness if you ask me. Emotionally fulfilling as it may be, it's outside the realm of honest inquiry.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:08 pm

Sergeant Thorne wrote:My biggest question is, why should you think that God is some kind of monster or arch villain just because his power or right is limitless? Where does that notion hail from?

If one takes a certain perspective, I think that notion could come straight from the pages of the Old Testament. Let's take my Ten Commandments thought as an example: just what did all of those firstborn Egyptian children do to deserve being struck down in order to persuade Pharaoh to free the Israelites? Was it just because they happened to be born into a society that worshiped the wrong gods? Why couldn't God had taken things out on Pharaoh himself, instead of on a bunch of innocent people who had nothing to do with the issue? Or how about the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, or of Jericho before its defeat? Or of the Earth before the Flood? Surely there were plenty of normal people just living out their everyday lives who got caught up in that. Or hell, let's go all the way back to the very beginning: why should all of humanity have been eternally punished just because Adam and Eve were dumbasses who disobeyed God? Should the son pay for the sins of the father? If you look at things in that light, you can get the impression that the God of the Old Testament was...well...kind of a dick.

woodchip wrote:There is a big difference between man created intelligence (MCI) and God creating man. For the MCI there is no afterlife. Once the plug is pulled, nada. God offers eternal life, and man can only offer existence until the emp bomb is dropped. So what does a MCI have for a moral compass? Coding? Whats to keep the MCI from turning on his creators? And unlike our God, the MCI will be able to communicate with its creators and we all know what familiarity breeds.

Can you say for sure that there would be no afterlife for such a being, any more than you could say for certain that human beings will experience an afterlife? Could not an omnipotent God grant that same possibility to a creation of his own creations, if that second creation reached the same level of sentience? (For hardcore Middle-earth nerds, I'm immediately reminded of the origin of the Dwarves, which was presumably Tolkien's own personal exploration of this idea.) Such an artificial intelligence could presumably develop the same moral compass that many humans follow today: there are plenty of people out there who have no beliefs in a higher power, and yet view treating others with empathy and respect as a foregone logical conclusion. Surely an artificial being could come to the same conclusions itself. And if you follow the Old Testament, humankind got pretty chatty with God, often to their detriment, so perhaps turn-about would be fair play.

flip · Post by **flip** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:31 pm

I think the Law of Conservation is the underlying premise with epigenetics playing an contributing role. I see and interact with a much different God than I hear talked about here. There is so much power, authority and self-assuredness in a heart that doesn't condemn itself.

sigma · Post by **sigma** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:07 pm

Cat, I agree with you that the deviations from the standard devices of the human body can open the door to a better understanding of our Creator. There are many examples of people with very sensitive psyche can feel something that transcends understanding of standard people. How women can feel at a great distance, what happens to their children, like animals obviously feel something that people can not feel. I guess I will not be wrong in assuming that most people feel the presence of the Supreme Mind on a subconscious level. That is, the human body has senses that they are not used in everyday life, and therefore they are not as developed as vision, for example. I'm not talking about the fact that the variety and perfection of nature by their very existence just screams that it is a product of the Supreme Mind. And also that there is the possibility of developing a potentially extraordinary extrasensory human senses. And again, if we carry out the association relationship between man and robot, the conclusion is that even if the robot is very smart, he can see his Creator at arm's length, but he can not understand what is in front of him his Creator.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:55 pm

flip wrote:I think the Law of Conservation is the underlying premise with epigenetics playing an contributing role. I see and interact with a much different God than I hear talked about here. There is so much power, authority and self-assuredness in a heart that doesn't condemn itself.

If there is a loving God, why is this planet full of evil humans that prey on one another?

flip · Post by **flip** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:00 pm

That's another reason why all the arguments against God in this thread are invalid. He obviously didn't make man to be a slave to Him, He made them to rule along with Him. Man has not done a great job at ruling alone has he?

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:39 pm

If God created us, why make us such as we are? I'm finding harder and harder to find the good in humanity. I see too much murder, theft, hate crimes, rape, torture and war in the news to figure us as a creation of a loving God. Nine out of ten times the phone rings, it's some damned scammer or thief out to take my money by some means or another. Ditto in my email. Hackers keep trying to invade our computers in the effort to steal identities or cause grievous mischief to others. I can't drive at night because of the drunks on the road. I can't walk down the street alone at night for fear of being attacked. We have laws that protect everyone's interests, but many don't follow them because they think they are above the law. People take drugs for pleasure, then steal from others to pay for it. There are people that will kill others not like them because they think their victims come from either inferior races or religions. Our institutions of economy have become pillars of power that only enrich themselves at the expense of the customer. Our government has become a corrupt tool of big business that exists to serve itself, not the people. There are multiple religions in the world that claim they know God the best, so who's in the right? Either they are all right, or they are all wrong. Why create such a messed up animal in the first place?

flip · Post by **flip** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:50 pm

You can't have it both ways TC. A dog has no incentive to become more than a dog. They serve God perfectly, but we are given a choice. So choose wisely. You cannot in one breath declare war on God as if He is out to control and enslave us and then decry His decision to give us free agency. I choose to serve God and His ways, some don't and basically choose to be as a monkey. When this age is over, those who have chosen to honor God and His laws will inherit the very nature of God Himself and those who didn't will be cast away. I do not bow to God, although I have no problem doing so, every time I try He tells me to stand up. He is not impressed with lip service and words of adoration. I worship God by honoring His ways.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:54 pm

flip wrote:You can't have it both ways TC. A dog has no incentive to become more than a dog. They serve God perfectly, but we are given a choice. So choose wisely. You cannot in one breath declare war on God as if He is out to control and enslave us and then decry His decision to give us free agency. I choose to serve God and His ways, some don't and basically choose to be as a monkey. When this age is over, those who have chosen to honor God and His laws will inherit the very nature of God Himself and those who didn't will be cast away. I do not bow to God, although I have no problem doing so, every time I try He tells me to stand up. He is not impressed with lip service and words of adoration. I worship God by honoring His ways.

I can't have what both ways? I can't want people to be nice to one another and respect one another and stop making this planet a sewer and evil place to live on? Animals sure aren't doing that. I can't question why God in His infinite wisdom would create such a self-centered, self-destructive, decedent evil being when he has the power TO DO BETTER? Doesn't God have free will and infinite knowledge?

I myself am not declaring any war on God, if he even exists or cares. I try to live my life as nice as possible and live by the edict, "Do to others as you would have them do to you". Far too many times, I am taken advantage of or stomped on in return when I am trying to be well meaning and nice to others. I don't steal, or kill, or covet my neighbor's things or my neighbor's spouse as my life's course. I try to be nice even in the face of outright hostility, although on occasion I tend to lose it sometimes.

Frustration is not one of those seven deadly sins however. I don't openly worship a God in a human created church, but at times I give much thanks for things that seem to happen to me that are otherworldly in occurrence within my life. I may not be a Saint, but I hope that if there is a God, He will see me and my spouse worthy enough after our deaths to enter His Kingdom.

flip · Post by **flip** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:06 pm

That's a good start. What I meant is you can't blame God for how others act and then at the same time want free choice. If I were you, I would spend more time considering who it is that hears and answers those requests of yours.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:10 pm

The whole idea of free choice is another one of those things I've pondered sometimes: if we really are granted that freedom of will, could it then follow that we should be given the choice to give up that freedom, in exchange for a life free from the sorrow and pain brought on by original sin? Yet it doesn't seem as though God has ever offered such a choice to humanity. I'm not saying that this would be a good choice, or that anyone should choose it, but couldn't one argue for it just the same?

(Granted, these are probably all questions that far greater theological minds than mine, saints like Augustine or Thomas Aquinas, have pondered themselves and written wonderful things about, but I've never really looked into writings on the subject myself.)

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:20 pm

Would it violate our free will to have given us better predispositions?

flip · Post by **flip** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:15 pm

Considering the uniqueness of each individual, I think those are questions that can only be answered by each ones own quest. Each person is satisfied by different things. What I have found is that you receive oneness of mind. Once the conflict is gone, then so is the internal division. With that lack of fear comes much freedom and ability, then it's up to you what you do with it. I am completely and entirely enjoying myself by being in compliance with the law of my mind and I have found that once your perspective changes, a lot of things that seemed impossible before become completely feasible. That is what God offers us. Salvation of our souls. Love, peace, joy, and self-control. Once you have those you are enabled to accomplish anything you want and at any point in between you are still completely content, which is even more empowering.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:50 pm

flip wrote:That's a good start. What I meant is you can't blame God for how others act and then at the same time want free choice. If I were you, I would spend more time considering who it is that hears and answers those requests of yours.

I'm not blaming God necessarily, I'm just curious why he created us the way we are when He has the potential to create something more..........I don't know, sane, loving and less cruel. What's the purpose of evil and hate anyway? To temper us to survive in a harsh world? Some of what man does, even in the name of God, seems counterproductive to life itself. Do humans NEED evil to survive? Would we become weak without it? I know I'm getting a little metaphysical here and I can't possibly understand why a God would endow us with these attributes, but can't we as a species grow and mature without all the greed, lust, hate and conflict?

flip · Post by **flip** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:16 am

No, actually you are blaming God. I see Him as very loving and generous making beings that had the potential to turn on Him and cause Him great grief and trouble.

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:08 am

Jeff250 wrote:Would it violate our free will to have given us better predispositions?

Are our dispositions a positive or negative quantification? Are we like humanity or merely unlike our creator? Is our behavior a lack of responsibility, love, consideration, or a surplus of something else? I think the answer is obvious, and you are operating on a mistaken assumption in your question.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:04 am

tunnelcat wrote:
flip wrote:That's a good start. What I meant is you can't blame God for how others act and then at the same time want free choice. If I were you, I would spend more time considering who it is that hears and answers those requests of yours.
I'm not blaming God necessarily, I'm just curious why he created us the way we are when He has the potential to create something more..........I don't know, sane, loving and less cruel. What's the purpose of evil and hate anyway? To temper us to survive in a harsh world? Some of what man does, even in the name of God, seems counterproductive to life itself. Do humans NEED evil to survive? Would we become weak without it? I know I'm getting a little metaphysical here and I can't possibly understand why a God would endow us with these attributes, but can't we as a species grow and mature without all the greed, lust, hate and conflict?

We live in a universe of duality, nothing relative can exist without its opposite.

Up needs down
Yes needs no
Front needs back
In needs out
Left needs right
On needs off
Good needs bad…etc.

In the case of god, most western religions have chosen to separate the two into different beings. But like the coin, if god does exist, it’s more likely to be two aspects of the same thing.

The trick is balance, choosing to do good while leaving evil dormant, but still in existence.

IMHO