trust, looked at from another point of view...

[callmeslick]

...this article sums up many of the themes I've tried to put forward since joining this forum:
http://www.macleans.ca/politics/america-dumbs-down/




summary: "the Smart Money beats the Dumb Money" every time.

[Will Robinson]

...this article sums up many of the themes I've tried to put forward since joining this forum:
http://www.macleans.ca/politics/america-dumbs-down/




summary: "the Smart Money beats the Dumb Money" every time.

I find the article to be a bit of a disingenuous whinge.
Skepticism is normal and with regards to the government official word on something it is no surprise people will state they aren't "sure" of anything the government says.

Example, from your article:

Nonsensical myths about the government’s “real” intentions have found so much traction that 30 per cent still believe that there will be official “death panels” to make decisions on end-of-life care.

Obama himself answered a question from a person at a town hall campaign stop where she referenced her mother being very old and having some medical condition and Obama basically told her it might come down to the doctors telling her she doesnt get the treatment instead she will get medication to ease her final days...

Now, of course, this same advice could come from her private insurance sponsored doctor but in that scenario she has a choice. Obamacare doesn't give you the same choices. Somewhere there is a "panel" of people who have made guidelines for who is more deserving of treatment based on criteria they chose to make the system viable.
That is a death panel.

No, it isn't five retired Nazi's deciding the fate of an old woman, but the mandated results will hit those concerned just as hard.

So, are there "death panels"....acording to Obama himself there will be. So am I skeptical when you or your blogger tell me otherwise? Of course I am, Obama has lied about lots of stuff regarding the ACA! I'd be foolish to not be.

[Ferno]

welll that's a record.

godwin's law within two posts.

[callmeslick]

Will's fantasy world kicks in to start the week! Are you aware, Will, that by your definiton of the term, we've had 'death panels' in this nation since the 1970's, when we went to the current health insurance models? Thanks for proving that ignorance prevails in the US. Except among the wealthy. And, as the article(not a blog, that was a magazine piece)noted, the Smart Money is going to beat the Dumb Money every time. Enjoy the ride.

[Tunnelcat]

Will won't figure it out until he's broke and can't pay for treatment or insurance. THEN he'll understand what kind of "death panels" we already have.

[callmeslick]

Will won't figure it out until he's broke and can't pay for treatment or insurance. THEN he'll understand what kind of "death panels" we already have.

or need housing and/or support care when he's elderly. Chance of death decreases with size of pocketbook. That's fair, right?

[Top Gun]

Maybe I really should consider moving to Canada. At least they're sane up there. Put in a good word for me, will you Ferno?

[Will Robinson]

welll that's a record.

godwin's law within two posts.

I don't think you understand the silly 'law' you are attempting to invoke. Then again maybe you didn't even read what I wrote as slick did....

[Will Robinson]

Will's fantasy world kicks in to start the week! Are you aware, Will, that by your definiton of the term, we've had 'death panels' in this nation since the 1970's, when we went to the current health insurance models? Thanks for proving that ignorance prevails in the US. Except among the wealthy. And, as the article(not a blog, that was a magazine piece)noted, the Smart Money is going to beat the Dumb Money every time. Enjoy the ride.

Slick you once again had to ignore what I wrote so that your lame rhetoric would seem to be applicable to a person who isn't paying attention.

The difference between having your government tell you when to give up hope because treatment it is too expensive and/or unlikely to succeed and being the one who decides that for yourself is the distinction you are trying to steer attention from.

We have not had a government doing that until now. Well, the VA has been doing it to vets for a while now. Lol, what a great model you have there to support your argument!

[callmeslick]

The difference between having your government tell you when to give up hope because treatment it is too expensive and/or unlikely to succeed and being the one who decides that for yourself is the distinction you are trying to steer attention from.

except what I(and others) have tried to get through your dim bulb is the following set of facts:
There is no evidence the government is planning to do so.
There IS a long history of insurers refusing to pay for treatment(experimental, not covered, etc)
with or without the ACA the only way ANYONE gets the treatment they decide to get is if the treatment is routine, accepted and appropriate for age and overall health of patient OR if they pay for it out of their own money.

We have not had a government doing that until now. Well, the VA has been doing it to vets for a while now. Lol, what a great model you have there to support your argument!

all insurance systems do so. And likely always will, even if you have Universal Health Care. Money is the only thing that will ever guarantee you any avenue of treatment you desire.

[Will Robinson]

The difference between having your government tell you when to give up hope because treatment it is too expensive and/or unlikely to succeed and being the one who decides that for yourself is the distinction you are trying to steer attention from.

except what I(and others) have tried to get through your dim bulb is the following set of facts:
There is no evidence the government is planning to do so.

Yes there is, Sebelius basically unilaterally showed us how they work ...and Obama has even said as much as I pointed out to you!
Your denial function is broken in the on position.


slick, the government has claimed the private sector is killing people with the way they provide health coverage. They say we all must chip in to fix it.
And now you are telling me that what we say is wrong with the ACA...as well as what is wrong with the governments single payer program (the VA Hospitals).... is nothing new... that it is fundamentally just like the private sectors administration of health care.
That proves your point how?!?

And just how many billions of dollars per year are we going to pay such a sorry bait and switch.

And you know it is all designed to fall apart so they can implement single payer as that is what they have been trying to do all along. So with that in mind and this recent exposure of how poorly they manage their existing single payer program....hiding data to cover up their horrific administration of benefits... you think it is wrong that we are skeptical?!?
Get over yourself!

[Spidey]

That article is proof that the dumbing down of America is alive and well…

There has never been any kind of golden age here in America where everyone believed in the big bang, in fact religiosity is on the wane here and worldwide, so better find another scapegoat.

The article mentions mass shootings with a fervor, but never mentions gang violence, which is a bigger problem.

Then they go on to misrepresent the health crisis once again, where the actual problem is health care cost, but the solution must be insurance.

Just a few of my thoughts, after reading that…

Yup the dumbing down of America continues.

[Tunnelcat]

The difference between having your government tell you when to give up hope because treatment it is too expensive and/or unlikely to succeed and being the one who decides that for yourself is the distinction you are trying to steer attention from.

We have not had a government doing that until now. Well, the VA has been doing it to vets for a while now. Lol, what a great model you have there to support your argument!

So, an impersonal insurance company telling you that you need to pay up or just go and die is any better? That's the way it is now, unless you can go on the internet or television and get out a sob story to get donations. So much is getting so expensive so fast anymore in this country that the likelihood of the typical American NOT being able to afford medical treatment is quickly becoming the new normal. An insurance company telling you to take a hike is just the same as the government telling you to take a hike. With the government, at least you can try and vote out the bastards. With an insurance company, they can tell you to go to hell and still have customers flocking to their doors. They have NO responsibility to anyone but their bottom line.

[Ferno]

Maybe I really should consider moving to Canada. At least they're sane up there. Put in a good word for me, will you Ferno?

Door's open. Just make sure you don't move to anywhere that's too nuts. We have our own wackos here too.

I don't think you understand the silly 'law' you are attempting to invoke. Then again maybe you didn't even read what I wrote as slick did....

That's the second time you've accused me of not understanding something, and the second time you were completely wrong

Here's how it works. Godwin's law [IE: Reductio ad Hitlerum; irrelevant fallacy] happens when a poster (namely you) invokes/makes a comparison to either Hitler or Nazis. When that happens, the offending poster loses all credibility and the argument. From that point on, the offending posters' followup replies shall be treated as hollow.


As for my thoughts on the article in question, I know better than to waste my time typing them out here, and instead talk about it with select members here.

[Will Robinson]

[..

I don't think you understand the silly 'law' you are attempting to invoke. Then again maybe you didn't even read what I wrote as slick did....

That's the second time you've accused me of not understanding something, and the second time you were completely wrong

What was the alleged first incident? When you insisted the IRS didn't have field agents that were armed and made arrests? Even though I gave you all the evidence you needed to realize how wrong you were including numerous news agencies carrying reports on those agents arrests and links to the field agents reports where they described those arrests that you said don't happen?

[Here's how it works. Godwin's law [IE: Reductio ad Hitlerum; irrelevant fallacy] happens when a poster (namely you) invokes/makes a comparison to either Hitler or Nazis. When that happens, the offending poster loses all credibility and the argument. From that point on, the offending posters' followup replies shall be treated as hollow.

Yes, I know how it works. What you don't seem to grasp is I DIDNT make such comparison. In fact I did THE OPPOSITE, by prefacing my comment with a DISMISSAL of any comparison of the sort.
Do you even grasp the little play on Latin that you quoted? I clearly didn't reduce the argument in such a manner. I did suggest that to the patient suffering it matters not that the death panel ISNT comparable to Nazis because the patients suffering is not lessened by the panel staffed by accountants or beauracrats.
If the Godwin law is broken by that then please send the Godwin police to come get me

[As for my thoughts on the article in question, I know better than to waste my time typing them out here, and instead talk about it with select members here.

Thank you for that much at least.

[Ferno]

What was the alleged first incident?

Think back to roughly two weeks ago.

When you insisted the IRS didn't have field agents that were armed and made arrests? Even though I gave you all the evidence you needed to realize how wrong you were including numerous news agencies carrying reports on those agents arrests and links to the field agents reports where they described those arrests that you said don't happen?

If you want to talk about that again, feel free to bump the old one.

Yes, I know how it works. What you don't seem to grasp is I DIDNT make such comparison.

Yeah, like you totally didn't imply that the ACA's panel was nazi-like. Do you really think I'm that stupid?

[Will Robinson]

Ferno do you still smoke weed everyday?

[Ferno]

Ferno do you still smoke weed everyday?

Do you?

[callmeslick]

Break out the mushrooms, it's a party!

[Will Robinson]

Ferno do you still smoke weed everyday?

Do you?

No Ferno, I quit a couple decades ago and it was a major improvement in all aspects of my life.
You should seriously consider it. Better late than never.

[woodchip]

Do you really think I'm that stupid?

Yes.

[callmeslick]

each to their own, Will. You might wish to help others select inebriants of choice after you have your own issues settled.

[woodchip]

The difference between having your government tell you when to give up hope because treatment it is too expensive and/or unlikely to succeed and being the one who decides that for yourself is the distinction you are trying to steer attention from.

except what I(and others) have tried to get through your dim bulb is the following set of facts:
There is no evidence the government is planning to do so.

Does your bulb create enough light to understand that death panels will not be a govt. mandated program but one used by individual dept. heads like the head of the AZ VA? So to paraphrase a Bushism, "Veterans died because a Dept. head lied." It all boils down to competency and the bigger the agency the more likely a incompetent person will run a regional office. With health care, can we afford even one incompetent person running the show?

[callmeslick]

more made-up paranoia. Whee!

[woodchip]

more made-up paranoia. Whee!

Another utopian reply

[Ferno]

Ferno do you still smoke weed everyday?

Do you?

No Ferno, I quit a couple decades ago and it was a major improvement in all aspects of my life.
You should seriously consider it. Better late than never.

You might have quit the drugs, but the drugs certainly haven't quit you.