Is lying always wrong? [Split from wave of conflicting emotions]

[Tunnelcat]

So when is lying immoral?

[CUDA]

So when is lying immoral?

Depends on the lie

[Sergeant Thorne]

No it doesn't. Lying is always immoral.

[CUDA]

REALLY???

So lying to protect the Jews from the Nazi's was immoral?

[Sergeant Thorne]

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Am I supposed to be using another standard for morality?

[CUDA]

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

so you would be willing to sacrifice the innocents and remain a Pharisee instead of showing the love of Christ to protect them. Well that is your choice and a "sin" I am willing to stand before God for on my judgement day

There are at least two instances in the Bible where lying produced a favorable result. For example, the lie the Hebrew midwives tell Pharaoh seems to result in the Lord’s blessing on them (Exodus 1:15-21), and it probably saved the lives of many Hebrew babies. Another example is Rahab’s lie to protect the Israelite spies in Joshua 2

[CUDA]

Exodus 1:15-21New International Version (NIV)

15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 16 “When you are helping the Hebrew women during childbirth on the delivery stool, if you see that the baby is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live.” 17 The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. 18 Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, “Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?”

19 The midwives answered Pharaoh, “Hebrew 8women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive.”

20 So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. 21 And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own.

interestingly God didnt seem to have a problem with these ladies lying when it saved lives. He even blessed them. Could it be you are wrong?

[Sergeant Thorne]

I could be wrong, CUDA, but I didn't write any of those verses I just quoted.

so you would be willing to sacrifice the innocents and remain a Pharisee

See, that bull★■◆● crosses a line with me. What you're talking about is either dead religion or cowardice, but you're the one insisting that my only way to save party A is to lie to party B. Am I God? Who died and made you the almighty that you know you can lie here or there for the better?

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

This is an old argument for me. I had this settled when I was 14. Your scenario is a little more difficult, and I think a lot of Christians probably struggle with similar scenarios, but for me it is still very clear in the scriptures, and I believe that you cannot achieve the will of God using the methods of the Devil. Can you lie in Christ? How do you know who will die and who will live? It's a trick, I'm certain of it.

EDIT: Beyond the usual argument, I have had a peek at some of the things of God in my life, and it makes me personally certain that lying is incompatible with resurrected life.

[Sergeant Thorne]

Exodus 1:15-21New International Version (NIV)

15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 16 “When you are helping the Hebrew women during childbirth on the delivery stool, if you see that the baby is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live.” 17 The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. 18 Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, “Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?”

19 The midwives answered Pharaoh, “Hebrew 8women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive.”

20 So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. 21 And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own.

interestingly God didnt seem to have a problem with these ladies lying when it saved lives. He even blessed them. Could it be you are wrong?

I should also point out, by way of rebuke, that this portion of scripture does not give cause to accuse God of showing partiality and overlooking wrongdoing, which is in essence what you've done. The scripture says that he blessed the women because they feared God more than to kill the male children of the Isrealites at the king's command, it never says he blessed them for lying. God is a just God. You are not taking the whole of scripture together here.

[Tunnelcat]

So when is a lie good? Is it worth violating one's convictions to protect someone else? I realize it's evil to lie to protect one self, but I'm ashamed to admit that I've lied to protect someone else from grief and sadness. I'm I now immoral for doing so?

[Sergeant Thorne]

I'm not saying I don't appreciate that, TC. It takes a certain degree of courage to lie to protect someone from harm, or care to lie to protect someone from grief and sadness, but the scripture is clear that to lie is to be unlike our creator, and God condemns lying in no uncertain terms. Personally I really believe that lying has unintended consequences, and shouldn't be dabbled in, as an aside from the judgement of God. Lying, even in a good cause, is playing God with someone's perception off reality, in a manner of speaking, and we do not have the faculties for it--it's irresponsible, if you think about it.

[Will Robinson]

ST, to follow your strict adhearance to the definition of a lie which seems to be any utterance of a non truth is a sin regardless of motive...
Were you immoral/untruthful to imply god blessed the midwives but still condemns them for their lies to the King?

Or do you have some evidence he made that distinction thus enabling you to make that assertion?

Stannis Baratheon and the 'onion knight' anyone?

[Sergeant Thorne]

The evidence is a logical conclusion from the Bible, Will, and it's not hard to make if you will make it. What are God's attributes? God is 1) Impartial, 2) Holy, 3) Just, and 4) Doesn't change. I could find you references for all of these, but they are well-known. You would find from a thorough familiarization with God's plan of salvation that Jesus Christ had to die, because the penalty for sin had to be paid. There was no other way. God cannot overlook sin. Even God's mercy cannot override his justice. It is never indicated in this passage that these women were pardoned for their deception, only that they were taken care of because they feared God. God will not conform to our opinions of right and wrong, and as I read the Bible God's standards of right and wrong tend to be very different from ours. Again, nowhere in the Bible did God ever overlook sin, except where the penalty had been paid--even the sacrifices in the OT to atone for sins were pointing to the sacrifice of Christ. It says somewhere in the Bible that God is perfect in judgement. What does "perfect" mean to you?

BTW, considerations of motive are naturally separate from the definition of a lie, which involves only an act of will in passing off a falsehood as the truth.

What became of these women in an ultimate sense is not known. I'm not saying that they were condemned, only that God does not show partiality in judgement. These verses are not sufficient to justify the act of lying when the Bible is so clear about it elsewhere.

[Will Robinson]

You cite 'just' and 'impartial'. I think that might work against your assertion.
You cite the lack of any record of him 'pardoning the women' but then the only record you do depend on has him not punishing but blessing them.

So the "logical conclusion" you hang your judgement on is difficult to support from my perspective. It would seem logical that the only reaction you 'know' he had was positive not negative.

You make the assertion that "the penalty for sin had to be paid". That there is no example of him 'overlooking sin'...didn't Jesus basically excuse the prostitutes?
Doesn't the bible call Tamar righteous after she posed as a prostitute to fool her father in law Judah into getting her pregnant? He then excuses her from prosecution once she reveals it was he that got her pregnant.

Of course god doesn't tell us what he thinks of these people. as far as I know he hasnt spoken to anyone in a long time if ever. It all comes from the book. But that book is the same one you draw your "logical conclusion" from...
I think you would be better served to call it your interpretation and leave logic up for the reader to decide without using your interpretation to pass judgement so willingly. Isnt that right reserved for him?.

[woodchip]

ST does your bible also tell you it is alright to "Jackasses being jackasses. I'd have dropped some spikes if I had them." So much for adhering to the Holy Word.

[Sergeant Thorne]

You can call me a hypocrite if you can get away with it, Woody. What really got me mad in a hurry was that I felt the last blast of black smoke crossed the line and was both ill-intentioned and downright dangerous to the car. Spikes was actually an afterthought--what I felt like doing in the moment was giving chase. Perhaps you mistook me for a laid-back pew-sittter in a suit and tie. Vengeance is the Lord's, but while the deed is in play I may step in and shut it down. Feel free to quote scripture to the contrary, and I promise I'll give it some good hard though.

[Sergeant Thorne]

You cite 'just' and 'impartial'. I think that might work against your assertion.
You cite the lack of any record of him 'pardoning the women' but then the only record you do depend on has him not punishing but blessing them.

So the "logical conclusion" you hang your judgement on is difficult to support from my perspective. It would seem logical that the only reaction you 'know' he had was positive not negative.

The record is one of God giving specific blessings/favor. But elsewhere in the scripture the SAME GOD condemns lying. This is where logic comes in. If God does not change, and lying is enough for eternal judgement now...

You make the assertion that "the penalty for sin had to be paid". That there is no example of him 'overlooking sin'...didn't Jesus basically excuse the prostitutes?

There is a lot going on in this case, but to call it overlooking sin is to be ignorant of what Jesus did.

Doesn't the bible call Tamar righteous after she posed as a prostitute to fool her father in law Judah into getting her pregnant? He then excuses her from prosecution once she reveals it was he that got her pregnant.

No, I recall Judah stating that she was more righteous than he was.

[Tunnelcat]

Ya know, the Bible is all well and good on the subject, but take that out of the equation for a sec for all us non-Christians and think on a purely human interaction level. Is there a plain old moral justification for lying? Does it do anyone any good in the long run? Does anyone feel guilty after lying to someone else? I think if you don't feel guilty when you lie, you're probably a sociopath, or at worst, a psychopath.

[Spidey]

So...women lie about their age, are they psychopaths?

Lying in and of itself is not immoral, depends on what you intend to accomplish with the lie. Although one could make the case that it may have ethical implications…even if it is only a little white lie.

[Top Gun]

You cite 'just' and 'impartial'. I think that might work against your assertion.
You cite the lack of any record of him 'pardoning the women' but then the only record you do depend on has him not punishing but blessing them.

So the "logical conclusion" you hang your judgement on is difficult to support from my perspective. It would seem logical that the only reaction you 'know' he had was positive not negative.

The record is one of God giving specific blessings/favor. But elsewhere in the scripture the SAME GOD condemns lying. This is where logic comes in. If God does not change, and lying is enough for eternal judgement now...

Perhaps--and this is quite a shocker, I know--God considers the context of a lie, instead of adhering to a blanket one-liner that ignores any extenuating circumstances? Because as others have pointed out, the alternative moral framework you're establishing is one where tens of thousands of European citizens would have been condemned for hiding Jewish families from Nazi soldiers. Frankly, any God who would do as much is nothing short of evil.

[sigma]

Exactly. There is a big difference between different lie. Lies that can be justified in terms of human moral values​​, not a lie in the truest sense of the term. For example, there is a big difference when Mikhail Lomonosov lied that he belongs to a noble or ecclesiastical estate, to be able to receive an education that was not available for peasant children, or when an American fighter bombed residential areas in Iraq, and then Washington officials say that a series of precision weapon systems have failed and the one to blame, a fighter pilot. You can only deceive the man who trusts you. Now I just do not read the news, which begin with the words: "The U.S. authorities have stated that ...". Opinions of the U.S. authorities to me now does not exist. People who openly say that white is black, can not call me respect. Actually, to tell the truth is easy and pleasant. I can only feel sorry for people who believe that lying is a necessary attribute of their lives.

[Sergeant Thorne]

Top Gun, you keep using the Bible's characterization of God to suggest that such a God is evil. You can thank your church for that level of disconnect/blindness. God is not the one they serve. God does not change, not even for the survivors of the Holocaust. If men are found a long way from the standards of God, even at their best, does God change to accommodate it? Do you suppose that the Holocaust happened without God allowing it? Now it is only you that suggests that God does not take everything into account. For me that falls under God being perfect in justice. Maybe you can explain to me how good intentions turn a lie into something more palatable for a perfect God. We have the testimony of several men in the old testament who by our standards were very good men, and one of them upon meeting God face to face said "I abhor myself", and "I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell among a people of unclean lips". The Israelite coming out of Egypt were so unlike God, that they made Moses their go-between so that they wouldn't have to face Him directly, because they were afraid for their lives (knowing He was on their side). God dwells in unapproachable light... Is it so incredible that a small lie by our standards is unacceptable to such a God?

21 These things hast thou done, and I kept silence;
thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.

If we make God like ourselves, ignoring/perverting his revealed character, we set ourselves up for an absolutely huge fall.

[callmeslick]

If we make God like ourselves, ignoring/perverting his revealed character, we set ourselves up for an absolutely huge fall.

now could you take THIS thought over to my thread about immigrant children(FB meme thread) and discuss it in THAT light? Thanks, Sarge, in advance.

[Sergeant Thorne]

Your whole OP is a lie, so I see the tie-in, but what exactly did you want from me?

[sigma]

(Eph. 4:25): "putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor."
Americans do not want to be friendly neighbor you can trust. U.S. so many lies that it is a matter of concern and it makes you wonder, to straighten your brains, sooner or later.

[callmeslick]

Your whole OP is a lie, so I see the tie-in, but what exactly did you want from me?

since the Bible is quite clear about caring for one's fellow man, compassion for the weak, putting children in a special status, etc, and you seem to toe to what the Bible cites as hard-and-fast absolutes, why is the current activities(consistent of rejection of children, the weak, the poor, for starters) reconcilable with Christian values?

How is my OP a lie? I read it, I reported it, no lie. Or are you suggesting you KNOW that this crisis ISN'T a test from God? If so, you blaspheme your very religious foundation.

[Sergeant Thorne]

Slick, you liar. The point of your post is not to highlight the will of God, it is an attempt to level an accusation of hypocrisy on the supposedly Christian Right. That's a political attack. Don't pretend that it isn't.

[callmeslick]

Slick, you liar. The point of your post is not to highlight the will of God, it is an attempt to level an accusation of hypocrisy on the supposedly Christian Right. That's a political attack. Don't pretend that it isn't.

but, that is just dancing around the moral issue, now, isn't it? Says loads about your character that you haven't the cajones to face the moral dilemma head on.

[Sergeant Thorne]

This started as a political statement, and I'm just frankly not gullible enough to treat it as anything else just because you tell me I should. If that isn't getting through, try "F*uck off" on for size.

[callmeslick]

How Christian, Thorne! Attaboy, go back and fetch me those neat-o Bible phrases to hide the stench of your hypocrisy.

[Tunnelcat]

So...women lie about their age, are they psychopaths?

Lying in and of itself is not immoral, depends on what you intend to accomplish with the lie. Although one could make the case that it may have ethical implications…even if it is only a little white lie.

Actually, I've never lied about my age. I'm not that vain and there's no point to it.

The whopper of a lie I told was to some good and close family friends and I really felt horrible about doing it. Actually, it was my mother who told me to lie in her behalf. When she found out she had terminal cancer, she told me to lie to this couple we knew and not tell them that she was dying. They tended to be very demonstrative and passionate people and my mom didn't want the sympathy. I felt like a schmuck, but I kept it secret, as per her wishes. When my mother finally died, I had to tell those friends the awful news. They were devastated that no one had told them for 2 years. I admitted to them that she didn't want it known and that she had told me to keep quiet, but I think they felt so slighted and left out, they couldn't forgive me. The reason I know this is when the husband of this couple got sick with a prolonged illness and died recently, the wife never told me what was going on. I only found out about it in a Christmas card of all things. To this day, I don't think she forgives me. Lying may have helped my mother, but it really broke fences for me.

[Sergeant Thorne]

something

You can be reasonable but so far with people who refuse to be.

[CUDA]

Colossians 4:5-6 New International Version (NIV)

5 Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. 6 Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.


I find myself struggling with this one regularly.

but obviously there are some here that struggle even harder

[Top Gun]

Top Gun, you keep using the Bible's characterization of God to suggest that such a God is evil. You can thank your church for that level of disconnect/blindness. God is not the one they serve.

"My church," such as it is, is the only denomination that can claim direct apostolic descent, and has two millennia worth of theology and philosophy and study to stand on. You are a single individual whose personal interpretations of Scripture are often laughably inaccurate, and have nothing to back them up. So don't try to play that game, because you lose by default.

God does not change, not even for the survivors of the Holocaust. If men are found a long way from the standards of God, even at their best, does God change to accommodate it? Do you suppose that the Holocaust happened without God allowing it? Now it is only you that suggests that God does not take everything into account. For me that falls under God being perfect in justice. Maybe you can explain to me how good intentions turn a lie into something more palatable for a perfect God.

Perhaps you in turn can explain to me how individuals who quite literally put their lives on the line to save innocent life could ever be viewed as "unpalatable" by a loving God? If one can commit justifiable homicide, and even just war, then how by any rationale would there not be such a thing as a "just lie"? What those people did could not have been accomplished without telling lies to the authorities at the time, lies which harmed no one and directly saved lives. How do you figure that the same God who told us, "There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for a friend," and "Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me" would condemn actions like these?

If we make God like ourselves, ignoring/perverting his revealed character, we set ourselves up for an absolutely huge fall.

And if we construct a viewpoint of God that is blatantly detrimental to the well-being of innocent life, then we're directly undermining what God should be. Religious faith of any stripe is valuable insofar as it provides humanity with a positive path through life, one based on love and service. When it is twisted to condemn those who do what is right, or so far as to actively disparage innocents, then it loses said value. As such, fundamentalism and extremism should be resisted at all times, because of the inherent evils they pose.

Finally, I'm going to ask you this again, though I don't doubt that you'll just dodge it: just what is the foundation of your faith in the Bible's text? Have you ever followed any external line of reasoning to come to the conclusions that you've reached? Or do you believe what you do simply because you were once told to do so? One can't use a given source to establish the veracity of that same source.

[Will Robinson]

How Christian, Thorne! Attaboy, go back and fetch me those neat-o Bible phrases to hide the stench of your hypocrisy.

slick continuously pokes christian in eye saying 'You are supposed to turn the other cheek no matter what aren't you?'...he then gets his finger bitten and shouts 'Look! He is mean!'

Grow up slick.

[sigma]

TC, I had a similar situation. And by the way, my family still can not forgive me that I did not attend the funeral of my mother. I just did not want to see my mother in a coffin. I know it's bad, but I just could not see it.
What difference does it hides a woman her age or not. People may be old age, but it may be young at heart. In my opinion, it should not even be discussed.

[Tunnelcat]

TC, I had a similar situation. And by the way, my family still can not forgive me that I did not attend the funeral of my mother. I just did not want to see my mother in a coffin. I know it's bad, but I just could not see it.
What difference does it hides a woman her age or not. People may be old age, but it may be young at heart. In my opinion, it should not even be discussed.

The problem is, I was doing it for my mother, not myself. That makes it even more painful since these people were very close friends. My mother just couldn't handle emotions and sympathy from other people and wanted avoidance. She's dead now, but I'm paying the price for her wish, the "lie", as I continue in life.