education in America....

[callmeslick]

...now, this isn't a glib topic I'm throwing out, but it's one which I think is important. I'm about to head off for another few days, but I'll depart with this thread, and see what comes back.
The other day, I was listening to a local NPR station discussing educational issues up in New Jersey. The usual problems in poorer districts: dropouts, poor test scores, the turn to for-profit outside providers to replace public schools, etc. I got to thinking back a few years when I did a couple terms on a School Board in PA. In those days, I immersed myself in the whole business of public education and studied a lot about it. What I gleaned was this....there is a DIRECT correlation between poverty rate and dropout rate. I mean, almost perfect. If you have a 40% poverty rate in a district, you likely have a 40% dropout rate. Further,the focus on test scores leads to a wholesale attempt to get children with disabilities and learning deficits out of the system, to make it 'look' better. I don't have a single, sure fire answer, or any certain answers as to where we go, but I get the sense that we are still, as a nation, going about it all wrong. And, it matters. I am real leery of standardized testing for a lot of reasons(alters teaching so as to do well on tests, not to teach kids to think, etc). What I focus upon is the successful graduation of functional high-school graduates. In our modern times, this is CRITICAL to the ongoing success of the economy and the nation as a whole. Back a couple generations, not so much so. For instance, I had a great-uncle who dropped out of school, went down to the DuPont company at age 14, lied about his age and ended up(43 years later) as an engineer, thanks to ongoing support and training by DuPont. Others went into trades as apprentices and also made solid lives for themselves. Those trajectories simply do not exist to any extent today, and are becoming less and less viable every minute. We live in a world with a LOT of uneducated laborers, another load of functional office workers, but a limited pool of educated people capable of critical thinking and lifelong learning. Thus, a dropout rate of 40% in 1925 may not have negatively impacted our future workforce or economy, but today it does.
It seems to me that we have to completely rethink, for our modern times, the educational process. We now HAVE to address, within that system, the shortcomings of homes with poverty(hungry children don't learn well). We have to refocus on the role of education in teaching children how to think and analyze, not simply regurgitate. We need to refocus on basic language/literacy skills, and have to, as a society, return education and scholarly pursuits to an esteemed status. It isn't simply 'throwing money' at the issue. It needs a complete, societal rethink of the whole matter. My greatest fear for the coming decades and beyond in America is that we are simply watching the groundwork being laid for a descent into third-rate status, and not taking that seriously. Thoughts? Please, spare us the glib, "lefties want low-education voters", or similar blather. I have faith that the folks here have good thoughts to bring forth. Let's hear them........in the meantime, it's back to the beach for me.

[Will Robinson]

I'm reading the opinion on education from a man who doesn't know how to use a paragraph....

(Just picking on you, I'm off to finish reading it now....if I can find my place...)

[callmeslick]

I'm reading the opinion on education from a man who doesn't know how to use a paragraph....

(Just picking on you, I'm off to finish reading it now....if I can find my place...)

thanks for the latter, and the former is an accurate description of my mind before adequate coffee.

[Isaac]

I didn't reading this op cuz to many werds. but education in isn't everthing. It's just that jawbs is racist. Day only hire people that are white. Obama was gonna pay my bills and take car of my babby but the republicans won't let him. #DEMOCRATS #HANDOUTS #VICTIMS

[Spidey]

Failing school system, poverty…two symptoms of a much deeper problem in our society, you could “fix” the education system 10 times over, and not change a thing.

The question is…does poverty cause problems with the educational system, or does some other problem/s cause them both.

I understand this is a very complex issue, because as you peel back the layers to find the root causes, the instinct is to want to deal with the layers, and stop looking for the problem. Also it can be very confusing as to what is causing what, add politics to that equation, and things get even worse.

I’m going to have to stop here due to the qualifier in the OP.

[Will Robinson]

This is one of those problems that are identified at a local level, as in, 'the education' but really the solution needs to be a 'global' one because what is holding education back is all those things Spidey is pointing to.

Politicians can fight over funding and testing and particular issues at the local level but they are not making citizens value education in a different way.

If the people don't see the connections between an under educated populace and all the other problems they face then they will let the politicians define the 'education problem' in way they serves the politician instead of serving to find the solution.

It requires a major shift in priorities. So either a magic wand to make the people smart enough to recognize they aren't smart enough...
Or some brilliant leadership that can lead the all the people to support his agenda that will ultimately change their priorities in so many areas. So many that it will no doubt threaten the status quo of the two parties that will try to undermine this brilliant leader...

[Foil]

The question is…does poverty cause problems with the educational system, or does some other problem/s cause them both.

From my experience, yes, and yes.

I've mentioned it here before, but out of grad school I spent a year teaching in an urban high school in the lowest-income area of the city.

Some of the issues I faced were directly caused by poverty:

• Many students dropped out to find extra work
• If a caring parents/guardian existed, they were rarely available during school hours because they worked multiple jobs
• I literally couldn't obtain enough textbooks/supplies (the district couldn't afford it)

Other issues were related only in that they shared commonalities with other issues surrounding poverty:

• Gangs were a huge problem (my best student stopped showing up one day, because he got involved in a gang)
• Education was very devalued (I often had students and parents/guardians tell me directly that school didn't do anything for them)
• Many students didn't have a caring parent or guardian at all (the number of kids "in the system" was pretty staggering)

Around the time I left, the city passed a huge funding/reconstruction initiative, and the school was eventually rebuilt and updated about a decade ago (it desperately needed it; the building was literally crumbling). I just now went and looked, hoping that the changes made a difference... unfortunately, the scores and dropout rate haven't improved.

[Spidey]

Yes indeed…one symptom can exacerbate another, but I’m curious as to why you didn’t address my point, instead of stating the obvious, did you think I didn’t know this?

[Foil]

I simply answered the quoted question with my anecdotal perspective. Which point are you referring to?

[Spidey]

That particular question was kind of rhetorical…(that’s why I leave off the question mark)

My point is that many things we see in our society are symptoms of something deeper that needs to be addressed.

[Foil]

Ah, to me this then begs the question:

Given that

• deeper issue -> poverty
• poverty -> poor education
• poor education -> a host of societal ills

... where is the best point to address the problem?

Can we get at the "deeper issue" at the root, or do we need to focus on poverty, or do we focus on the educational system, or do we focus on what happens after the educational system fails?

[Spidey]

I personally believe we need to address those deeper issues, but I can’t here because slick placed a qualifier on this thread.

It is my opinion if you cure the disease, the symptoms will disappear. (for the most part, there is no doubt the education system can be improved regardless of “deeper issues”)

[callmeslick]

I personally believe we need to address those deeper issues, but I can’t here because slick placed a qualifier on this thread.

huh? I did not intend to. In fact, you two are dealing with exactly what I was pondering. Do you address the underlying issues, and allow a generation or more children to suffer the consequences, which(I finally reckoned) creates FAR worse societal pressures, higher poverty no matter WHAT you address? I think I'd like to focus on the current student pool, and yes, give a ton of free ★■◆● like food and tutoring and transportation to get those kids successful in school, thus lowering my pool of problem citizens down the road, making the initial core issue a BIT easier to cope with.

[woodchip]

So slick you don't have any problem with charter schools, even tho the unionized NEA is adamantly opposed to the idea?

[callmeslick]

So slick you don't have any problem with charter schools, even tho the unionized NEA is adamantly opposed to the idea?

I have no problem with ANY school that works. However, in many places, charter schools are virtually unregulated, can limit the number of handicapped or educationally challenged students, and have little track record of proven success. Unless charter schools can be PROVEN to be markedly better than public schools when dealing with the same funding, facilities and class demographics, call me skeptical. I can think of few Charters if any that succeed past the speciality magnet program level. Can you?