Traitors in kind

[Tunnelcat]

Corporate inversions, the way for U.S. corporations to dodge U.S. taxes and then allow insiders to make lots of money doing it. Our illustrious Republican House leader and another Republican, Rep. Dave Camp, the committee chairman who oversees tax policy by the way, profited off of it. They don't even want to hear about making this illegal either. Personally, I think they are both unpatriotic greedy slimeballs to make a profit this way. The lame excuse that their investment advisers were the ones responsible is ridiculous at best. If that was the case and they felt it was wrong, they'd pass a law banning the practice. I notice they haven't breathed a word to move in that direction despite the appearance of impropriety with the whole practice.

Plus, I consider corporations who do these inversions to be traitors for not wanting to pay U.S. taxes that maintain our country and the infrastructure they use while doing business and then saddling the people with the burden.

http://news.yahoo.com/boehner-reportedl ... 10201.html

Shame on Burger King for trying to do the same thing. No wonder their food royally sucks. They're spending too much time trying to figure out ways to dodge U.S. taxes instead of trying to improve the quality of their "product". Time to put them out of business.

http://www.thewire.com/politics/2014/08 ... ys/379113/

[callmeslick]

Walgreens just tried the same thing....for about 22 hours, before a couple million customers contacted them about the future of their business in the United States. If folks do likewise to BK, you would see the same thing. I don't go to those places, but if I did, I'd write them and boycott them.

[Will Robinson]

TC, you are trying to make it into a partisan thing when it isn't.
Lots of people in charge of lots of money are moving it out of the Federal governments sticky fingers all the time. People from both Party Plantations.
So remove that from your point if you want to make a good one...

Second thing is, it is legal to avoid taxes...legally... and good business to avoid them as well.

If too many people are moving away from the high taxes maybe the tax structure is to blame for it? Not some evil republican.

[Tunnelcat]

Well, at this moment, it is partisan. The Republican controlled House has the opportunity to change tax law and perhaps shame those just as guilty Dems while doing it. No one wants to kill the money tree.

As for corporate taxes being too high, BS. What they usually pay is an effective tax rate, somewhere in the upper 20% range, far lower than the statutory rate of 35 and 39%. In fact, they sometimes pay NO taxes at all after using all the loopholes, dodges and accelerated depreciation rates available. They are greedy whiners that don't want to pay their share of maintaining our country and government. They'd rather we lowly income earners get stuck for the full bill.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/ ... tax-rates/

http://www.ctj.org/blog/2006/07/how-hig ... taxes.html

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... se-30.html

Even though this study is a couple of years old, it's still relevant.

http://www.ctj.org/corporatetaxdodgers/ ... Report.pdf

[Z..]

Billion dollar fee for having foreign headquarters but doing the majority of your business in the US. Want to make your lion's share of the money in this country? Pay taxes or pay the fee. Then again, they're probably moving to Canada so they can have extra money to pay their low level employees more right? That's gotta be the reason!

[Krom]

Yeah, like a large corporation would ever pass a cost of doing business savings on to their rank and file or customers.

[CUDA]

I heard this Morning that Burger King bought out a Canadian Corporation and plans to move their Corporate offices to Canada where the Tax rate is only 15% instead of the 35% in America.

last word I heard it there were over 40 major companies that have done the same thing.

[callmeslick]

seriously, did you all see what happened to Walgreens when they tried to suggest the same path last month? Burger King would be readily targetted on the same grounds(vast majority of profit comes from US sales). Now, does anyone care enough to pressure them? I have seen no evidence yet, despite the fact that Walgreens caved in less than one day.

[Will Robinson]

TC I think you have your partisan blinders on.

*If* the Republican controlled House "has the opportunity to change tax law" then they must have the opportunity to impeach Obama and defund ObamaCare...and a dozen other things that aren't happening...because you are wrong about what they can do...

You are also wrong about how high the taxes are. Regardless of the way you categorize the rates the proof is in the pudding....people are moving their business outside the high tax country into the lower tax countries! You can fiddle with numbers on a spreadsheet to get whatever partisan rhetoric you want but out in the real world people vote with their feet and their pocketbook. And they have clearly voted to do it out of US Federal jurisdiction. They wouldn't do it if it really was cheaper here!

Like all those Hollywood loudmouth liberals who talk a big game.....during breaks in filming....in Canada....on a set that is designed to look like New York because the taxes and Union expenses incurred filming in the real NY would cut into their pay checks. But never fear, they talk it up about all those un patriotic conservatives in between scenes anyway.

Warren Buffet, another loudmouth liberal talks up the same game...he's funding the Burger King deal...

Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, talk up the class warfare game too....and hide their wealth in every tax shelter imaginable.

Here is the deal:
If it is legal it isn't unpatriotic! It is sanctioned by the frikken Federal Government!

And for you to try and call it unpatriotic and selectively focus only on the right side plantation is ridiculous x2!

[callmeslick]

bottom line is that it is perfectly legal. The only way the deal is a negative for BK is if their US buying public shrinks, substantially and permanently, out of anger with their lack of corporate citizenship(odd, one hears so much blatting about the personhood rights of corporations, but nothing about civic responsibility....sort of like it is with individuals). The US tax rate, as noted, is high on paper, with a ton of workarounds making it practically VERY low for many types of businesses. Perhaps food service is not one of those.

[Spidey]

Businesses are just easy targets when it comes to calling something a name like “un-patriotic”.

I mean…how many people did we put out of work buying cheap crap from overseas, or avoided taxes by buying out of state using an online merchant….

Ah…don’t get me started, just go look in a mirror.

And maybe we should disclose every government employee’s investment portfolio, to make sure they aren’t profiting from some “un-patriotic” business, starting right at the top.

[Tunnelcat]

I heard this Morning that Burger King bought out a Canadian Corporation and plans to move their Corporate offices to Canada where the Tax rate is only 15% instead of the 35% in America.

last word I heard it there were over 40 major companies that have done the same thing.

Never going to buy a Burger King product ever again. The food's crappy, has been for a long time, so that won't be a problem for me. Any company that can't or won't pay it's U.S. taxes at the going rate like any other person or entity that resides in the U.S. is contributing to the demise of our country. I might just start getting militant and look for companies the do the inversion as a tax dodge just so I can look out and NOT buy products from them, even pharmaceuticals (especially big pharma, which, by the way, is NOT passing on those cheaper foreign tax rate benefits to their consumers).

Businesses are just easy targets when it comes to calling something a name like “un-patriotic”.

I mean…how many people did we put out of work buying cheap crap from overseas, or avoided taxes by buying out of state using an online merchant….

Ah…don’t get me started, just go look in a mirror.

And maybe we should disclose every government employee’s investment portfolio, to make sure they aren’t profiting from some “un-patriotic” business, starting right at the top.

That wasn't a decision I made. I refuse to buy cheap crap from China when I can avoid it. I go out of my way to look for the country of origin. Now, it's damn impossible to avoid that sometimes, but I make the effort. It's a waste of my money to buy stuff that breaks as soon as I get it home, so it's just easier to not buy it in the first place. Read that businesses, NOT BUY IT! By the way, as a consumer, I'm not the one who made the decisions to ship our jobs overseas just to produce products with cheap labor. Big business and Wall Street did that with their hunger for huge profits. I've heard a lot of other Americans grousing about the cheap sh*t that falls apart after you buy it that's made in China as well, so I'm not the only one. Besides, many Americans CAN'T afford quality things anymore either because of this little problem:

http://www.businessinsider.com/profits- ... low-2013-4

So which came first, lower American wages forcing people seek out cheaper products because they couldn't afford stuff anymore, or the corporations seeking cheap labor to make junk products solely to make more profit? And corporations don't want to pay our tax rate. Pfffffft! They're sure raking in enough dough right now to pay it in spades!

I just had to buy a new washer and dryer after my 25 year old Maytags wore out. The only reason I didn't FIX them is the fact Whirlpool, who now owns Maytag, QUIT MAKING THE STUPID PARTS THAT WORE OUT! Ditto with my 20 year old Jenn-Air oven and stove, which are partially broken and jerry-rigged, but still functional. I actually looked around and bought an American made product, Speed Queen. The only downside is that I'm sure some of the innards were probably made in China, which pisses me off and I know can't avoid either. I'm also betting that those components will be the first to fail a few years down the road too.

As for avoiding sales taxes, I don't currently live in a state with a sales tax. However, I used to in the past and I never once flinched or dodged my obligation of paying the tax when I bought things. If I lived in a sales tax state and had to purchase something online, I'd proudly pay the tax.

[Spidey]

Well you should be commended for at least trying…I gave up a few years ago, and I don’t really care anymore, because a man can only take so much abuse when he tells someone what is going to happen. (and it did)

See that is the big lie being told, companies didn’t start going overseas just to make larger profits, they started going overseas to survive…the profits are just a bonus for them.

Yes, they are making huge profits, which would disappear if they came back here.

I’ve been over this a dozen times…the buying cheap crap, and the foreign competition started first. But we had a chance to keep many jobs here in the states back then, because at the same time as competition, automation was also getting into gear as well… but at that time unions were still very powerful in this country, and they fought automation tooth and nail…and the unions won. After that companies had no choice but to seek cheaper labor to compete. Yes we would have lost jobs with automation…but we lost ALL OF THEM as a result of delaying the process.

If you look into history...it was people with money, that started the problem, by moving from the old established retailers to the newer "Mall Based" big box retailers...etc. it's actually a rather long story.

And yea…the result of going overseas is large profits, but the lie is that was the motivation in the first place.

But I will grant you there were probably some that have gone overseas “just to increase profits” but I can tell you for a fact…it didn’t start off that way.

If you knew what it takes to move overseas or what the dangers are…it would make your head spin, and every businessman I know would rather operate here. (and I know quite a few)

[woodchip]

TC, before you spit out that piece of whopper, do you use a apple IPhone? Wear Nike sneakers? You get my drift?

[sigma]

I completely agree with Cat. Quality clothing, household appliances and products dropped sharply over the past 15 years. My old Technics stereo system sounds better than the modern home theater Sony. Old Moulinex microwave reliable than any modern microwave any manufacturer. About the clothes I do not even want to talk. Quality clothing today is a fabulous price. About products is a different story altogether. Quality products is almost impossible to buy in the city, although I buy products in stores and economy class, and very expensive shops. Good black caviar or jamon can only be bought through a friend with connections. Even the McDonald's has long been a very reduced quality, compared with the end of the 20th century.

[callmeslick]

reading my daily business briefs(a day or so late, for reasons stated earlier), it would seem pretty reasonable for the new BK entity to go to Canada. Horton's had nearly double the sales volume in Canada, if you add in the Canadian BK outlets. Thus, no one can claim that the new corporation is solely dependant on US sales(as Walgreens was). They still might react to public pressure, but the moral high ground is shaky.
Also, in the course of studies, I found that the FUNCTIONAL US business tax rate is around 13%, but writedowns vary by business sector.

[Tunnelcat]

TC, before you spit out that piece of whopper, do you use a apple IPhone? Wear Nike sneakers? You get my drift?

God, I couldn't choke down a Whopper if you paid me. Fast food burgers haven't been decent for at least 20 years. Same for the fries ever since they quit using lard to fry them up in. Hell, I don't eat fries everyday, but when I do, I want a nice, simple fried potato, not a greasy, tough shoelace! Soy oil, just retched and tasteless, except when it's old and hasn't been replaced, then it imparts that rancid taste and the flavors of every food that was fried in it before. Worst fries I ever got were from McDonald's just last week. I wouldn't touch them ever again from that franchise. They don't care anymore.

No, I don't own an iPhone or wear Nike sneakers, but yes, just about every article of clothing sold in this country is made in some Asian country or China. I can't get around that and it's frustrating. With shoes, the quality sucks and the rubber stinks of chemicals, especially the Chinese stuff. And I do know all of my computers were made in some Asian country as well, so I'm stuck. If I had a choice, I'd rather buy American and support American jobs, even if those products cost more. That's what frosts me. I have the money, but I can't buy quality anymore.

sigma, I still own a Quasar microwave that I bought in 1983! It still works today. All I've ever had to replace was a power diode that blew out 10 years ago. I bet I couldn't buy that part today though. I woe the day it breaks since parts are not available anymore and because it has one of the first electronic voice chips made that I'd miss. The little electronic man tells me the countdown times and power settings I've chosen. I can hear him from the other room if need be. The newer Samsung I got from my father is a not made nearly as nice and an internal transformer buzzes all the time.

Spidey, I have one question. When did we move from a keep it and repair it society to a throw it away and replace it society and why? Are Americans so stupid and shallow that they don't see the unsustainability of that practice and that in the long run, it costs them out of pocket far more? Plus, it got rid of those good paying service repair jobs we used to have in this country.

[CUDA]

When did we move from a keep it and repair it society to a throw it away and replace it society and why?

when we as a society kept demanding cheaper and cheaper items.


you can go to the local IKEA and buy a dinner table for $200.00 or less and it will last you a year or two. or you can go to a Quality furniture store and buy a Dinner table that will last you a lifetime and pay $20,000 for it (No ★■◆● on the 20K) I just looked a couple of months ago.

we got what we asked for.

[Spidey]

Spidey, I have one question. When did we move from a keep it and repair it society to a throw it away and replace it society and why? Are Americans so stupid and shallow that they don't see the unsustainability of that practice and that in the long run, it costs them out of pocket far more? Plus, it got rid of those good paying service repair jobs we used to have in this country.

I would imagine it happened along with people becoming specialized, and the complexity of the consumer goods we all use these days. I still fix as many things as I can, but sometimes it is just quicker and easier to throw it away.

In my younger days, I could fix any car on the road…now…pfffft. I fixed my old Sylvania Superset a few times…now I wouldn’t even bother to scrap a “TV” for parts.

[Krom]

I've repaired a couple LCD monitors and a network switch before. The LCDs had the back light start flickering or wouldn't power on correctly anymore, and the network switch simply didn't work at all. In all cases it was bad capacitors, I usually replace them with capacitors that have the same microfarad rating but with a higher voltage tolerance and the devices never have that problem again. The shipping cost for the capacitors was more than the capacitors themselves, but combined together it was about $20 worth of capacitors and shipping to resurrect over $500 worth of electronics, so well worth it.

I've also fixed electric hammer drills and leaf blowers which had internal connections crack from excessive vibration/flexing. Really, a lot of these things can be repaired if you are handy with a soldering iron and a few other basic tools. Stuff has become labeled disposable mostly because there isn't as much money in fixing it so nobody does it anymore.

Also size definitely plays a major role, miniaturization is the natural enemy of repairing a device. I'd say if you exclude miniaturized/portable devices like smart phones or mp3 players (too tightly integrated), the majority of stuff out there can still be repaired/refurbished just not for a profit to the manufacturer so they don't bother anymore. It is cheaper to just hand off a new one under warranty than to pay people with the skills to actually diagnose and repair something.

[callmeslick]

When did we move from a keep it and repair it society to a throw it away and replace it society and why?

when we as a society kept demanding cheaper and cheaper items.

quite true, and were heavily encouraged with the idea that acquiring more stuff is the American dream. Shortsightedness meets shallow values.

you can go to the local IKEA and buy a dinner table for $200.00 or less and it will last you a year or two. or you can go to a Quality furniture store and buy a Dinner table that will last you a lifetime and pay $20,000 for it (No **** on the 20K) I just looked a couple of months ago.

we got what we asked for.

While I agree with the overall conclusion, those quoted numbers suggest that someone needs to get a bit real. I can buy a handmade, artisan dining room table for half that, tops, that will not only last my lifetime, but be ultimately bequeathed to my great-grandchildren by someone down the line. I have my great-grandmother's table down in VA, and have one purchased for around $2000 in 1996 or so that will last for 100 years, assuming sensible care.

[Tunnelcat]

When did we move from a keep it and repair it society to a throw it away and replace it society and why?

when we as a society kept demanding cheaper and cheaper items.

Which came first, lower American wages as a consequence of offshoring or the American demand for cheaper goods encouraging the offshoring?

[Z..]

I'll take the first one! Demand for cheaper goods(!) came as income growth was stagnant. Why would you buy cheap ★■◆● if you can afford better stuff?

[CUDA]

When did we move from a keep it and repair it society to a throw it away and replace it society and why?

when we as a society kept demanding cheaper and cheaper items.

Which came first, lower American wages as a consequence of offshoring or the American demand for cheaper goods encouraging the offshoring?

Chicken or the egg.
can't have one without the other.

[callmeslick]

actually, there was a sequence. Around the mid 70s, when wages were relatively generous(especially benefits), a bill of goods was sold to the public that everyone(no matter of income level or personal wealth) should be able to have it all: 3 TVs, every gizmo, two cars, a house, etc......The only way this could become a reality was to open the floodgates to cheap imports(see:WalMart). This in turn put negative pressure on quality US producers, leading to layoffs and wage stagnation to compete. Some businesses, as everyone knows, really never did become competetive(clothing, smaller appliances). But the start was the push for cheap imported goods to sell to the masses, which was likely instigated by those who stood to become billionaires off that trade(and did so).
Those of you old enough remember when acquisition was a well-thought out thing for most people and families, one that involved working and saving for a long time in many cases. Once folks got addicted to instant gratification, they essentially paved the way for their own economic demise.

[Spidey]

When did we move from a keep it and repair it society to a throw it away and replace it society and why?

when we as a society kept demanding cheaper and cheaper items.

Which came first, lower American wages as a consequence of offshoring or the American demand for cheaper goods encouraging the offshoring?

I guess you will keep asking that question till you get the answer you “want” to hear, because I have answered it at least twice now.

So you have two options…

1. Study up on recent American economic history. (at least 6 decades)
2. Keep believing what you want.

[Tunnelcat]

actually, there was a sequence. Around the mid 70s, when wages were relatively generous(especially benefits), a bill of goods was sold to the public that everyone(no matter of income level or personal wealth) should be able to have it all: 3 TVs, every gizmo, two cars, a house, etc......The only way this could become a reality was to open the floodgates to cheap imports(see:WalMart). This in turn put negative pressure on quality US producers, leading to layoffs and wage stagnation to compete. Some businesses, as everyone knows, really never did become competetive(clothing, smaller appliances). But the start was the push for cheap imported goods to sell to the masses, which was likely instigated by those who stood to become billionaires off that trade(and did so).
Those of you old enough remember when acquisition was a well-thought out thing for most people and families, one that involved working and saving for a long time in many cases. Once folks got addicted to instant gratification, they essentially paved the way for their own economic demise.

Well, I guess we're STILL our own worst materialistic enemy. Too bad we never seem to learn something from the same old mistakes we made in the past. I'm too optimistic for my own good that maybe we won't keep falling into the same old traps.

Spidey, I guess I've become like my grandparents. They made all the same gripes about the younger generation that I'm making right now. What comes around goes around. I've officially become a whiny old fart. It really sucks. I'll get off my high horse now, because it just ain't worth the aggravation and bad health effects.