A Failure in Moderation

vision · Post by **vision** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:13 pm

Zuruck has some pretty rock solid points there.

Foil · Post by **Foil** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:11 pm

Z.. wrote:...selective moderating. My name is brought up in multiple posts, yet it is mine that is removed...

Don't get a persecution complex, Z. Your posts are not the only ones that have been removed.

Removal of ★■◆●-posts is an equal-opportunity endeavor.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:09 pm

Zuruck, your case isn't helped by much with you being the biggest shitdisturber here.

Z.. · Post by **Z..** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:58 pm

I don't need any "help" with my case. I'm not the least bit concerned in life that my posts get removed; I'm only pointing out the same thing I've been pointing out for a long time. The only time there has been this much talk about it is when woodchip started crying. This is a forum based on a dead video game that produces the exact same conversation from the exact same ten people--not really a going concern for anyone. Unlike many of the people on this board, I dish it out but can also take it.

It's hilarious that this has spawned two pages. One crybaby that couldn't take it. Oh frigging well. Wait...is that word banned too?

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:09 am

Jeff250 wrote:

So when you saw that post, what is the first thing you did? Did you hit "report post" so that the post could be taken care of before things turned into a shitfest?

First off in the 20 years I've been posting I never reported a post. Too much like feeling the snitch.

Jeff250 wrote: No, you actively contributed to it by taking a shot back.

Wow, lets take a look at my shot back:

"What a pleasant person Z. No wonder you were banned before."

Pretty harsh comment eh? Notice all the curse words and name calling I did. I suggest Jeff you stop trying to rationalize your actions to make yourself look like you were "On top of things"

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:12 am

Z.. wrote:I don't need any "help" with my case. I'm not the least bit concerned in life that my posts get removed; I'm only pointing out the same thing I've been pointing out for a long time. The only time there has been this much talk about it is when woodchip started crying. This is a forum based on a dead video game that produces the exact same conversation from the exact same ten people--not really a going concern for anyone. Unlike many of the people on this board, I dish it out but can also take it.

It's hilarious that this has spawned two pages. One crybaby that couldn't take it. Oh frigging well. Wait...is that word banned too?

The whole thing started when you couldn't handle being head-butted by Will's response to your prior assertion. I hear anger management class can have positive effects on people like you.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:35 am

I think the difference between the two of you is woodchip is really good at being passively annoying, while Zuruck is very much actively annoying.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:39 pm

woodchip wrote:
Jeff250 wrote:

So when you saw that post, what is the first thing you did? Did you hit "report post" so that the post could be taken care of before things turned into a shitfest?
First off in the 20 years I've been posting I never reported a post. Too much like feeling the snitch.

Jeff250 wrote: No, you actively contributed to it by taking a shot back.
Wow, lets take a look at my shot back:

"What a pleasant person Z. No wonder you were banned before."

Pretty harsh comment eh? Notice all the curse words and name calling I did. I suggest Jeff you stop trying to rationalize your actions to make yourself look like you were "On top of things"

Woodchip, you can't play the victim here. Not anymore. We're not that stupid.

--------------

Jeff250 wrote: No, you actively contributed to it by taking a shot back.

Like this one:

I hear anger management class can have positive effects on people like you.

Foil · Post by **Foil** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:34 am

Does anyone have anything appropriate to DBB Feedback, or has this become yet another thread-o'-potshots?

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:00 am

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:33 pm

I have a question though... If woodchip really didn't like the moderation here and wanted to leave, how come he's still around?

Nothing is holding him here.

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:57 pm

Ferno wrote:I have a question though... If woodchip really didn't like the moderation here and wanted to leave, how come he's still around?

Nothing is holding him here.

The same thing that keeps a certain type of disruptor in an IRC channel: the "I hate this place but am hopelessly addicted to it and will complain and try to change it." phenomenon. Also: no suitable alternatives.

sigma · Post by **sigma** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:09 am

Indeed, let us all run away in different directions! Religious themes we will discuss in other religious forums, political issues in other policy forums, research topic in other scientific forums, etc. In my opinion, you forget that this forum has a value that here community descenters has the opportunity to communicate on any topic. And even despite heated discussions, all we will always remain friends priori, because all of us are united by one entrancing thing - the universe Descent.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:57 am

Ferno wrote:I have a question though... If woodchip really didn't like the moderation here and wanted to leave, how come he's still around?

Nothing is holding him here.

If you read closely you will see I was talking about starting threads in the E&C forum...not the Descent board in general. And if you were astute enough to look in the E&C you will see I have not posted a new thread there, or even offered a reply. Nice try at analytical observations...which never were your strong point.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:58 am

Skyalmian wrote:
Ferno wrote:I have a question though... If woodchip really didn't like the moderation here and wanted to leave, how come he's still around?

Nothing is holding him here.
The same thing that keeps a certain type of disruptor in an IRC channel: the "I hate this place but am hopelessly addicted to it and will complain and try to change it." phenomenon. Also: no suitable alternatives.

Sadly Sky, you're falling into the same trap Ferno is.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:39 am

^^ these last two replies are why no one here cares for what you say.

I'll try to explain in the most basic terms I possibly can Woody. You actively insult people, then complain here when your posts get pulled. It's your fault. Yours. no one elses. If you want to earn even a smidgen of respect, don't take shots at people. Until then, you're not in any position to make any complaints.

/thread.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:36 am

Ferno wrote:^^ these last two replies are why no one here cares for what you say.

I'll try to explain in the most basic terms I possibly can Woody. You actively insult people, then complain here when your posts get pulled. It's your fault. Yours. no one elses. If you want to earn even a smidgen of respect, don't take shots at people. Until then, you're not in any position to make any complaints.

/thread.

Most of the time my "insults" are in reply to knee jerk or demeaning replies that someone posts first. Would you like for me to pull up replies by you where I never had said one thing about you Ferno, yet you felt compelled to make some crack at my post or thread that added nothing to the discussion. OTOH when you finally started some threads in E & C you happen to notice I didn't reply how you started a worthless post? Nope, I refrained in the hopes you would be encouraged to start more threads.
And for your info I didn't complain about my posts being pulled. Try re-reading my OP

vision · Post by **vision** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:51 pm

woodchip wrote:Most of the time my "insults" are in reply to knee jerk or demeaning replies that someone posts first.

Typical victim response from a liberal. Someone please shelter this poor child from the cruel world!

sigma · Post by **sigma** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:01 pm

woodchip wrote:Most of the time my "insults" are in reply to knee jerk or demeaning replies that someone posts first.

In my opinion, woodchip, there is a simple solution to this problem. Just when you see that someone openly provoke you, imagine yourself in the role of moderator. Of course, now you can not afford to reflection and impulsivity. You will be required to respond to the most correctly and wisely. But on the other hand, since on your shoulders is not a heavy burden of responsibility of the moderator, the rest of the time you can afford to relax a little

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:33 pm

woodchip wrote:
Most of the time my "insults" are in reply to knee jerk or demeaning replies that someone posts first. Would you like for me to pull up replies by you where I never had said one thing about you Ferno, yet you felt compelled to make some crack at my post or thread that added nothing to the discussion. OTOH when you finally started some threads in E & C you happen to notice I didn't reply how you started a worthless post? Nope, I refrained in the hopes you would be encouraged to start more threads.
And for your info I didn't complain about my posts being pulled. Try re-reading my OP

1) doesn't matter what the reason is. you still actively contributed to it.

2) this isn't about me, so don't even try to shift the focus.

In closing, if you can't accept responsibility for your actions, GTFO. there's the door.

Foil · Post by **Foil** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:06 pm

Foil wrote:Does anyone have anything appropriate to DBB Feedback, or has this become yet another thread-o'-potshots?

I think this has been answered. It's become clear that folks would rather take shots at each other than discuss the original topic. I had hoped for better.

I'll leave it with the moderators here in DBB Feedback to determine what to do with this thread.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:19 pm

I say go ahead and close it. Nothing left here to discuss.

roid · Post by **roid** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:23 pm

Most threads you create START with a sour atmosphere woodchip, by your design. All you do is troll and troll, someone bit you... are you seriously complaining?

You write your posts trying to see how much insult you can get away with. These kind of posts take the most time to moderate, as we have to ask ourselves how much trolling is too much trolling. If you actually want to reduce the load on mods, drop the snark.

If i'm not mistaken, your most recent thread was quite literally titled: "Why is it that "Liberal" has come to mean stupid".
It might help hold a mirror up to your hypocracy if mods changed the title of this thread we're posting in to: "Why is it that "Woodchip" has come to mean ★■◆●ing twat".

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:19 pm

And in defense of woodchips liberal and stupid thread. It was in response to slicks conservative slam thread.
MOST threads in e&c are troll threads. Deny it. You can't

roid · Post by **roid** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:04 am

yep, i've said so myself. The place is a ★■◆● hole, there's very few people there with any curiosity or intellectual honesty, no-one wants to learn or listen to anything. Those who do want to are lost in the noise, distracting trolls dominate all discussion, nothing is ever built, compromises are never approached, common ground is considered apostacy.
And environments like that end up being self-sustaining, who in their right mind would come into that situation and post a question expecting any sort of helpful or insightful answer? They move on, and post their questions elsewhere.

re:thread title. Ah i see, that makes more sense.

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:11 am

roid wrote:The place is a ★■◆● hole, there's very few people there with any curiosity or intellectual honesty, no-one wants to learn or listen to anything. Those who do want to are lost in the noise, distracting trolls dominate all discussion, nothing is ever built, compromises are never approached, common ground is considered apostacy.

Does there need to be an E&C? It could technically be shut down, with advice to "Google <subject matter> forum" to find some other forum based upon interests.

vision · Post by **vision** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:52 pm

Skyalmian wrote:
What it used to be.

What it became.

This is profound. I would also argue E&C in it's current state has no necessary place on a game forum. It's a completely useless distraction for me while I wait for less frequent Descent related discussions.

sigma · Post by **sigma** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:27 pm

I do not agree. This forum is so democratic that everyone can express any opinion on any topic. In my opinion it is impossible to restrict people saying their opinions. Forums where there is strict censorship, many. Here moderators work well, and the community itself has the ability to control and correct each other's statements. In my opinion, this forum is more like a mirror of the international society, than a highly specialized resource to discuss only the game.

Pumo · Post by **Pumo** » Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:42 pm

sigma wrote:Well, I suspect many of us are not ashamed of expressions, as probably many of us continue to play in multiplayer, different games, where game chats huge amount of slang and filthy language. Nevertheless, each of us has a good intelligence to find synonyms for profanity in this forum. I think we should remember that in the Descent play is not quite ordinary people, because the Descent itself is quite amazing, rare, elite game. And gradually we will be able to get rid of this contagious infection in the forum, use foul language just will becomes unworthy of a decent society.

I totally agree with this post from Sigma, and wish this would turn to be true, but alas, as for now, it seems is not and won't the case.

Also, unlike Z said, that this is a forum about a dead game, and there's nothing else to do except by creating threads at E&C, then why there are active projects being discussed in the Descent Development and Descent Level Spotlight forums, like Descent 1 1/2?

I have noticed that most of the E&C dudes are a bunch of users not interested on Descent anymore, they ignore all the Descent stuff goin' on here even if it's present and not dead at all, and just come to get a good fight, as that is what they really enjoy (by judging at the ENORMOUS quantity of political trolling posts at E&C).
As an example, I've not seen a single post of Woodchip or Z on any of the now active Descent discussions. They are just simply not interested on it anymore.

So the problem are not the moderators, the problem are the users that doesn't even want to know a single thing about Descent, but still come to a Descent forum to just spit all their political frustrations towards everyone.

vision · Post by **vision** » Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:43 pm

Pumo wrote:...they ignore all the Descent stuff goin' on here even if it's present and not dead at all...

I literally only post nonsense in here while waiting for Descent things to happen. The game is still alive, somewhat, at least enough to be interesting to me.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:08 pm

Now that you mention it Vison, I was over at the Sol Contingency page and it sounds like they're nearly ready for release. They're hoping sometime in October. Looks like we'll be playing via steam. Should be interesting. Hoping for some new victims. ..er blood.. whatever.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:58 pm

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:40 pm

I just wanted to weigh in as saying that Woodchip's topic resonated with me to some degree. There have been times when it has occurred to me that moderation could be a more involved activity--less of a final drop of the hammer--to prevent threads from being closed. I'd be one of the last ones to be ungrateful for Mod efforts on this BB considering its age, but it really doesn't change the responsibilities, just the motivation or expectation. I also appreciate a lot of the comments I've read from the Mods in this topic, and they are a good commentary on how we should conduct ourselves and why, but in the end it still doesn't change the goals of moderation. The primary goal of moderation is to keep a forum active, and to encourage a positive and productive atmosphere, and at the extreme end of the spectrum, to prevent melt-down where everyone goes to other corners of the web hating each other. Moderation could be more active/involved. I'm not going to say it should, because as I'm not necessarily willing to shoulder that responsibility myself it would be disingenuous to some degree, and we deal with the world as it is, not as it should be, but it certainly could be were anyone interested in fostering a higher standard.

The only time in recent memory when I've really taken exception with moderator activity was when Krom closed a thread with a comment that I felt, while arguably justified, was ultimately "unprofessional" (getting disgusted with repeated infractions). Were this Krom's forum, I would see it as sort of like being in Krom's house, and I would be inclined to either overlook it as his right or leave. You folks are all moderators of a forum not your own, and very likely it isn't quite appropriate for users to take you to task in public like this, but in theory there are responsibilities and goals necessitating a level of activity which does not require your inspiration or whole-hearted agreement...

Put concisely: I have no inclination to rake anyone over the coals, but there is very likely room for improvement all around in this case, not just from joe user. Also Krom is awesome.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:13 pm

So once again Foil see's fit to lock a thread because he doesn't like the content and/or how the posters are responding. So lets ses, we can't can't now defend our nations policies because Foil thinks that is ridiculous. So whats next, we can't discuss the merits of eating greasy burgers over salads? The latest thread everyone was showing constraint by not calling one another names but stuck on topic about Russia invading Ukraine and the desirability of such actions. I guess when you have the magic wand you can make yourself into a god in your own corner of the world. Perhaps Foil it is time you step down as you seem to not be able to handle the EC forum.

Foil · Post by **Foil** » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:24 pm

You misunderstand.

I locked the thread, not because of the topic, but because it was turning into a flame-fest.

Your original topic is absolutely worthy of discussion, and I'd personally like to see some legitimate dialogue about it, because what is happening there could have a huge impact on the larger world.

[ In other words, I'd suggest posting it again. Hopefully folks can discuss it without the thread turning into broad "us vs. them" flames. ]

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:34 pm

Yet you never locked the If Kids were Politicians thread which had similar posting.

Foil · Post by **Foil** » Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:56 pm

< goes and reads thread >...I see what you mean. Not to the same extent, but there were elements of the same in that thread as well. Thank you for the heads-up on that one; I'll keep an eye on it.

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:18 am

I feel like I ought to weigh in on this.

I don't post actively on this forum very often anymore. For the most part it's dead and I can see what's been going on by slipping in every month or two and looking at the PTMC cafe.

I used to post actively in the E&C section. When last I posted in there, it was in a pretty sad state of affairs. Flame wars were everywhere, and moderation was more concerned about cuss words than actually moderating discussion in any meaningful way.

Aside from no longer caring about cuss words, every time I have bothered to click on the E&C forum I've seen nothing but the same, or worse.

The whole section is a ★■◆● hole where nothing gets done except insults getting hurled back and forth. That the forum has degraded to that state speaks volumes about the moderation in there: that is to say there isn't enough. Moderation in there seems almost solely focused on waiting until a thread is past the point of no return and then locking the thread.

The purpose of moderation is not to guide a discussion but to prevent it from degenerating into a bar room brawl. I see very little, if any of that, any time I browse the E&C.

To properly moderate any discussion thread and keep it from blowing up like most E&C threads do, the only workable course of action is to start deleting text that attacks posters instead of the posters arguments and punishing repeat offenders with reduced privileges or revoked access. This requires due diligence on the part of the moderating staff to proactively read each thread and make sure that insults are not being thrown around like dodgeballs.

I suspect however that the current moderating staff is incapable of that because of insufficient time, staff size, or simply a severe shortage of fucks left to give.

A functioning discussion forum also requires users to get involved in the sections moderation by actually making use of the report function. What's worse, feeling like a snitch or watching your thread go up in flames like the rest of them?

And if it's one specific user getting singled out for bad behavior all the time, maybe that member should consider changing his behavior or posting elsewhere. The mod staff could help with that decision by not being afraid to show people the door if they continue misbehaving.

The way I see it, E&C has three options to be a viable forum in any meaningful capacity:
1. Bring in some moderators who can moderate based on what's being attacked (argument or person) and who want to have the term "discussion thread" mean something.
2. Say ★■◆● it and declare the forum to be completely unmoderated and let it be that way for everything except cases where real world legal complications could result
3. Shut it the hell down.

What the mod staff is doing in there right now is not working. Something needs to change.

Personally I think option 3 is probably the best, as there are plenty of other places on the web to discuss politics and learn to hate each other over petty little ideological differences.

Pumo · Post by **Pumo** » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:18 am

Avder wrote:...
3. Shut it the hell down.

That would be the best, we would have some relieve, finally!
E&C is the most stinky, ugly and nasty section of the DBB, let's get rid of it once and for all!

As you can see, E&C infects even other sections like this one (Feedback), so it's like a disease.

sigma · Post by **sigma** » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:11 pm

The real truth of life is much, much worse than E&C. You do not know that the authorities in all countries to hide from the public the monstrous truth? E&C this is sophomoric in comparison with what is really going on.