The 'enlightened' left: ENDS justify the MEANS

[Nightshade]

And now, we hear it from them directly.

"Lack of transparency is a political advantage" - basically, lie and you'll get what you want. Doesn't matter how you get it.



The actual gem of a quote:

[Tunnelcat]

Like every politican does from either party from time eternal. It's called "politics".

[Spidey]

No…it’s called deceit.

[Sergeant Thorne]

Seems like a very bright guy. IMO he is not really the enemy--he's just the brain in a moral vacuum that works for them. He's also correct that it is the stupidity of the American voter that is the enabler for them (more correctly the "naivete" of the American voter). An awful lot of people are woefully stupid, despite what their pride has to say about it, but this does not make the smart people right--more often than not, in my experience, the smart people over-extend their reach through pride and get into trouble.

I would say that a man who really knows or is mindful of the boundaries of his own intelligence is a wise man.

The problem with ends justify the means is that people are not God, and they don't know all of the ends--our best hope for achieving good ends is to use well/soundly established means. Any ends perceived from where we are now are purely imagined. It is a very foolish person who accepts ends justify the means.

[Tunnelcat]

No…it’s called deceit.

They're one and the same. That's why politics stink.

[Will Robinson]

No…it’s called deceit.

They're one and the same. That's why politics stink.

Yea, politics stinks that way but the stench rising from the mainstream media in their selective silence over this is the most foul thing anyone has smelled in a very long time.

[vision]

...but the stench rising from the mainstream media in their selective silence over this is the most foul thing anyone has smelled in a very long time.

They are saving the story for 2016. Guaranteed.

[Will Robinson]

...but the stench rising from the mainstream media in their selective silence over this is the most foul thing anyone has smelled in a very long time.

They are saving the story for 2016. Guaranteed.

I doubt it, the story is an indictment of their favored party as well as of their complicity in aiding the democrats with their blatant lies about Obamacare.
The way the mainstream aided them and now have so far gone silent over this coming out the way it did is a bigger controversy than the fact that politicians lied about it.

[sigma]

No…it’s called deceit.

They're one and the same. That's why politics stink.

Yea, politics stinks that way but the stench rising from the mainstream media in their selective silence over this is the most foul thing anyone has smelled in a very long time.

I think we always need to filter information from the media. And if we can express our opinions here, I believe that this forum exists it is not without mutual benefit.

[CUDA]

the Irony is, that it was mostly the left that supported this law, so if it was as this guy says, and the Democrats (left) were counting on the "Stupidity of the voters" to get it passed.......... well.......................
who could he have been referring to.


and of course we know that Nancy Pelosi didn't know who he was. even though she mentioned him by name in a speech so it couldn't have been her. well..... come to think of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "we need to pass the law to find out whats in it" Maybe they were referring to her

[Tunnelcat]

Well, I'm a leftie and I think the law stinks and caters waaaaay too much to the health insurance industry. In fact, rates are going up this enrollment period. So much for getting more people enrolled to keep our costs down.That's the problem with the ACA. The left didn't realize how much crony capitalism was put into a supposedly socialistic law. Personally, I think that Pelosi is not a liberal. She's nothing but a corporate lobbyist suckup like the rest of congress.

[CUDA]

If you listened to what he said TC, the law was never about healthcare coverage. The law was about redistribution of wealth. Thats why it's failing as a healthcare law.

[Nightshade]

You know- I wonder why we haven't seen Slick chime in... Hmmm...

[Sergeant Thorne]

Obviously he's gone at his [insert number] home for [insert time period] fishing/hunting for [insert game animal] with [insert family member or person(s) of influence].

[Tunnelcat]

Jon Stewart did a really good job of ripping the Dems over this guy's comments, especially Pelosi's response.

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/full-episode ... umberbatch

[Tunnelcat]

If you listened to what he said TC, the law was never about healthcare coverage. The law was about redistribution of wealth. Thats why it's failing as a healthcare law.

It doesn't matter anyway. Healthcare is going to fail for most people in this country even if we get rid of the ACA. We have the best healthcare in the world, but only if you're rich and can afford it.

[Nightshade]

Jon Stewart did a really good job of ripping the Dems over this guy's comments, especially Pelosi's response.

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/full-episode ... umberbatch

Jon Stewart is again spinning this for his democrat buddies by making these 'points' in his little schtick-

Stewart was making fun of people (and anyone in the media who OMG, dared speak of this) for making a big deal out of Gruber's comments- not the democrats.

He also basically brushed off the whole thing by basically insinuating that he agrees with Gruber- American voters are stupid and we shouldn't question an egghead that knows more than we do.

Besides, why should we be afraid of a nerdy egghead that calls us names? ...AND he did it for 'our own good.' Everything's ok if papa government tells you a lie or two to get you to eat your veggies right? We all know that ends justify the means anyway.

He also looked over at Pelosi and Obama and shrugged his shoulders. So what? This is the best the best evidence the republicans have to repeal Obamacare? Two politicians lying about their knowledge about who they knew and when they knew them? *yawn.* Wake me up when politicians don't act like politicians.

Stewart would actually be funny...if he weren't such a party propagandist.

[Duper]

The sad thing is that where this healthcare thing goes, there were a number of well funded and very competent legal firms trying to get this stopped and they did not succeed, so it had very little to do with "the American people". It was about a political machine that was going to get its way regardless.

[Will Robinson]

The sad thing is that where this healthcare thing goes, there were a number of well funded and very competent legal firms trying to get this stopped and they did not succeed, so it had very little to do with "the American people". It was about a political machine that was going to get its way regardless.

I think it had to do with two major factors.

One, as rhetorical tool for the political left it couldn't lose. If the 'rightwing' had succeeded in stopping it the left wins with some new moral high ground to preach from (albeit a false premise) that they were going to give everyone everything they imagined great healthcare could have been if not for those devils on the right...
Since the rightwing failed to stop it the left will merely put the failure of the legislation on republican dogs who ate the Obamacare homework. A tactic that has already been accepted...been there, passed the kool-aid jug around...no problem passing it again

Two, since the major health insurance underwriters all have seen their value increase substantially since this began they obviously have won the fight to stay relevant, in the middle between the patient and his healthcare provider. So 'Big Insurance' got what it wanted, a big payday, getting into bed with the politicians who have allowed this to come to be.

The status quo has survived another supposed magnificent reform...that turns out to be a complete sham.

The really disgusting bit isn't that politicians let it happen. Scorpions always sting the frog they ride across the river on.
What is disgusting is the impunity with which the media has enabled the Obama administration and the others to invoke.

The 'rightwing' version of Gruber would be testifying in front of impeachment spouting democrats right about now, and every word of it heralded in double bold face print, rolling chyron graphics and a 24/7 talking head army of concerned 'journalists'.

[Tunnelcat]

Jon Stewart did a really good job of ripping the Dems over this guy's comments, especially Pelosi's response.

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/full-episode ... umberbatch

Jon Stewart is again spinning this for his democrat buddies by making these 'points' in his little schtick-

Stewart was making fun of people (and anyone in the media who OMG, dared speak of this) for making a big deal out of Gruber's comments- not the democrats.

He also basically brushed off the whole thing by basically insinuating that he agrees with Gruber- American voters are stupid and we shouldn't question an egghead that knows more than we do.

Besides, why should we be afraid of a nerdy egghead that calls us names? ...AND he did it for 'our own good.' Everything's ok if papa government tells you a lie or two to get you to eat your veggies right? We all know that ends justify the means anyway.

He also looked over at Pelosi and Obama and shrugged his shoulders. So what? This is the best the best evidence the republicans have to repeal Obamacare? Two politicians lying about their knowledge about who they knew and when they knew them? *yawn.* Wake me up when politicians don't act like politicians.

Stewart would actually be funny...if he weren't such a party propagandist.

Shows me you're staunchly right wing. As a liberal, I got the impression he pretty much dissed the Dems over this whole thing, especially Pelosi.

[Ferno]

the real funny part is thunderbunny doesn't get that jon stewart is a comedian and is happy to just rage about his supposed 'leftist' view.

[sigma]

We have the best healthcare in the world, but only if you're rich and can afford it.

I want to add that in Russia there is a quality free health care, perhaps even better than in the US. But it is available only for the elite and high-ranking civil servants. I know it .... because I myself was an elite ) Now it is not

[Will Robinson]

the real funny part is thunderbunny doesn't get that jon stewart is a comedian and is happy to just rage about his supposed 'leftist' view.

Don't forget a large segment of our society, as in the segment that handed Obama his keys to the Whitehouse, cite Comedy Central and other questionable sources as their 'news source'.
So his unhappiness with Stewart isn't so out of place...

[Jeff250]

At least Jon Stewart/Comedy Central admits that his show is a joke, unlike the other entertainment news channels with what they peddle.

[Tunnelcat]

We have the best healthcare in the world, but only if you're rich and can afford it.

I want to add that in Russia there is a quality free health care, perhaps even better than in the US. But it is available only for the elite and high-ranking civil servants. I know it .... because I myself was an elite ) Now it is not

Hmmm. Sounds just like what we have in the U.S. If you're an elite rich person, you can get all the health care you want. If you're poor, forget about it. Sounds like Russia is embracing capitalism, at least with it's civil servants.

[Sergeant Thorne]

I think it's clear that the end result of universal healthcare is mediocre healthcare for everyone and quality healthcare for those who can afford it. I think there is a theoretical place where it doesn't necessarily have to be that way, but this is the real world... Our system, under capitalism is just the same scenario, but with someone other than the government pissing on your back while boldly informing you that it's not rain--they are in fact pissing on your back, and would you please hold still, while the government promises to speak with them about it while doing nothing.

[sigma]

We have the best healthcare in the world, but only if you're rich and can afford it.

I want to add that in Russia there is a quality free health care, perhaps even better than in the US. But it is available only for the elite and high-ranking civil servants. I know it .... because I myself was an elite ) Now it is not

Hmmm. Sounds just like what we have in the U.S. If you're an elite rich person, you can get all the health care you want. If you're poor, forget about it. Sounds like Russia is embracing capitalism, at least with it's civil servants.

No, it's not like you think. In Russia, this is not so. You can be a poor student, but if you get into power, you instantly get a mansion in the relict nature reserve and you drive a Mercedes S600.

[Nightshade]

Jon Stewart did a really good job of ripping the Dems over this guy's comments, especially Pelosi's response.

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/full-episode ... umberbatch

Jon Stewart is again spinning this for his democrat buddies by making these 'points' in his little schtick-

Stewart was making fun of people (and anyone in the media who OMG, dared speak of this) for making a big deal out of Gruber's comments- not the democrats.

He also basically brushed off the whole thing by basically insinuating that he agrees with Gruber- American voters are stupid and we shouldn't question an egghead that knows more than we do.

Besides, why should we be afraid of a nerdy egghead that calls us names? ...AND he did it for 'our own good.' Everything's ok if papa government tells you a lie or two to get you to eat your veggies right? We all know that ends justify the means anyway.

He also looked over at Pelosi and Obama and shrugged his shoulders. So what? This is the best the best evidence the republicans have to repeal Obamacare? Two politicians lying about their knowledge about who they knew and when they knew them? *yawn.* Wake me up when politicians don't act like politicians.

Stewart would actually be funny...if he weren't such a party propagandist.

Shows me you're staunchly right wing. As a liberal, I got the impression he pretty much dissed the Dems over this whole thing, especially Pelosi.

Right wing this, liberal that. I'm a human being.

Anyway if you read Stewart's gestures and body language- you get the correct sense of what he's trying to say. heh

[Nightshade]

the real funny part is thunderbunny doesn't get that jon stewart is a comedian and is happy to just rage about his supposed 'leftist' view.

He's a comedian turned propagandist that supports only one 'side.' Anyone that doesn't support his 'side' is to be ridiculed.

[Will Robinson]

At least Jon Stewart/Comedy Central admits that his show is a joke, unlike the other entertainment news channels with what they peddle.

That may be enough of an excuse for Stewart but what does that say about the people who cite his 'joke' show as their news source?

[CUDA]

That's not slicks ONLY news source. He uses the onion too.

[Jeff250]

At least Jon Stewart/Comedy Central admits that his show is a joke, unlike the other entertainment news channels with what they peddle.

That may be enough of an excuse for Stewart but what does that say about the people who cite his 'joke' show as their news source?

I honestly think you could do much worse. For some real entertainment news, you could look toward those who proclaim themselves fair and balanced, yet raise their voices, bully and intimidate their guests when they have an opposing ideology, even cutting their mics, but I don't see you giving any criticism of that theater. Stewart's interviews are among the best, especially when he interviews someone of an opposing ideology.

He's a [...] propagandist that supports only one 'side.'

Yeah it'd be a shame if there were anyone like that around here.

[Will Robinson]

... For some real entertainment news, you could look toward those who proclaim themselves fair and balanced, yet raise their voices, bully and intimidate their guests when they have an opposing ideology, even cutting their mics, but I don't see you giving any criticism of that theater. ....

Actually I do. I repeatedly refer to Hannity as a shrill little man who is as much a part of the problem as his counterparts on the left.
And I have consistantly urged people to vote against the Party he supports as well.
So I think I've earned my bones in that regard.

[Top Gun]

I think it's clear that the end result of universal healthcare is mediocre healthcare for everyone and quality healthcare for those who can afford it.

What we had previously was "no healthcare for millions and quality healthcare for those who can afford it," so isn't that a step up by default?

[Spidey]

Depends on your definition of “up”.

[Sergeant Thorne]

I think it's clear that the end result of universal healthcare is mediocre healthcare for everyone and quality healthcare for those who can afford it.

What we had previously was "no healthcare for millions and quality healthcare for those who can afford it," so isn't that a step up by default?

One is a problem and one purports to be a solution. In my book that's a "no".

[callmeslick]

the Irony is, that it was mostly the left that supported this law

get out much? The LEFT hated the ACA, still does, and is still pissed that the Dems didn't have the stones to commit to a fight for Universal Health care. Like with the approach to immigration, Obama has the brains to realize that if SOMETHING doesn't change, nothing will ever get fixed. So, with the ACA, he moved the ball forward and potentially helped 16 million of our fellow citizens in a very imperfect manner that doesn't require a wholesale change in taxation(which UHC would).

[woodchip]

"Potentially" is a obfuscating word...sounds good but means nothing.

[callmeslick]

let's go with, 'has helped over 10 million, and can, eventually, help another 6 million'.